The prayer of an Open Theist

[JM]

This little prayer is taken from carm.org which has a section on the logical refutation of the false doctrine [poisoning the well if you like, or stating a fact that both Scripture and history agree upon] of Open Theism.

It goes as follows…

"O Lord, I come to you now with a request for help. My daughter has become mixed up in drugs and fornication with her boyfriend who is not a Christian. I have witnessed to them both, but they are both not interested. I am so concerned about my daughter and I ask you Lord to deliver her from her sinfulness and cause her heart to repent.
O Lord, I know that you gave us free will and that you will not interfere with our choices and that you don't really know for sure what will happen, but Lord, can you please work in her heart to change her and bring her to repentance?

...there is a pause in his prayer....

O Lord, I am confused on what to ask. I want my daughter to change her ways, and I come to you for help. But, how can that be if you cannot change her heart since it is up to her to change? How then can she repent if she doesn't want to? Perhaps Lord, perhaps you could cause someone to enter their lives who would convince them of the error of her ways. Maybe you could send someone...but, Lord, how would you do this if you don't know whether or not anyone would choose, of their own free will, to help her. You can't make them do it. Lord, do you even know if she will repent? Oh wait, that's right, you don't.
Lord, I sincerely hope that you don't make a mistake with her and take any risks with her.

...another pause....

Lord are you able to make a difference in here life?"

This is true if Open Theism is correct and no one can trust a god who makes mistakes such as creating man and women who sin WITHOUT purpose, who has to learn about the future as it happens, who has no idea of the hearts of His people and “IF†He does, He’s powerless to affect change.

This is not the God of the Bible.

 

[Novum]

This is true if Open Theism is correct and no one can trust a god who makes mistakes such as creating man and women who sin WITHOUT purpose, who has to learn about the future as it happens, who has no idea of the hearts of His people and “IF†He does, He’s powerless to affect change.

This is not the God of the Bible.

Translation: I don't like how Open Theism sounds or what its consequences may be, therefore it's false.

 

[Solo]

Open Theism is a bucket of swill put forth for the spiritually blind to eat and drink by the "loving" enemy, satan.

 

[JM]

This is true if Open Theism is correct and no one can trust a god who makes mistakes such as creating man and women who sin WITHOUT purpose, who has to learn about the future as it happens, who has no idea of the hearts of His people and “IF†He does, He’s powerless to affect change.

This is not the God of the Bible.

Translation: I don't like how Open Theism sounds or what its consequences may be, therefore it's false.

Translation: As a non-Christian Open Theism is the least hostile to my beliefs, it’s non-threatening to my worldview and allows me to remain accountable to myself and not God. Therefore, it can’t be all that bad.

 

[Drew]

Open Theism is a bucket of swill put forth for the spiritually blind to eat and drink by the "loving" enemy, satan.

Thanks for your usual rational, considered, wise, and informed post. I am sure this will convince many of the falsity of open theism. Sheeeesh.

 

[Solo]

Open Theism is a bucket of swill put forth for the spiritually blind to eat and drink by the "loving" enemy, satan.

Thanks for your usual rational, considered, wise, and informed post. I am sure this will convince many of the falsity of open theism. Sheeeesh.

You are very welcome. :D Perhaps your refutation of Open Theism will assist in keeping the spiritually blind from eating and drinking this swill for their protection, unless of course you like the taste.

 

[jgredline]

JW wrote:
Translation: As a non-Christian Open Theism is the least hostile to my beliefs, it’s non-threatening to my worldview and allows me to remain accountable to myself and not God. Therefore, it can’t be all that bad.[/quote]

JW
Are you a Christian?
I can't figure you out.

 

[Drew]

There is nothing at all mysterious or incoherent about the notion of praying to God in the situation described by JM.

Although the element of free will, if it exists (which I think it does), is mysterious to us, it is easy to construct a model that works in respect to allowing God's intervention to have an effect on those with free will.

I suggest that it is entirely self-consistent to propose that man has a freewill faculty that is reasonably "disentangled" from his other faculties. Let's say I have no knowledge of quantum mechanics or no knowledge of how to skate. Even without such "domain" knowledge, I can still have a faculty that allows me to recognize the need for such knowledge and freely choose to let God "download" that knowledge into me.

But, of course this is not the situation described by JM. Here we have a situation where someone prays for someone else, and where that someone does not want to change. Ok.

Let's say that I deeply desire to eat a whole fudge pie. My friend, who knows I am overweight, prays for me that I do not eat the pie. It is perfectly reasonable to argue that God arranges the world (those variables that he controls) such that I am dissuaded from eating a fudge pie. Now of course we heretics who believe in the existence of free will have a problem - as JM correctly points out, we cannot assume that God can "force" other free will agents (other people) to come over to me and talk me out of eating that fudge pie.

However, a sophisticated God has many other options at his disposal - He could arrange that my bus (the one I take to work) break down in front of a huge billboard that lists the dangers of over-eating. Stranded there on the bus, I read the message and, having both a free will faculty and "other" faculties (e.g. ones that process the material on the billboard and draw the conclusion that overeating is bad), I end up freely changing my mind and don't eat that pie. Remember, the very concept of free will allows me to make this argument - having free will means having the capability to examine choices and act accordingly.

What if I am on a desert island and the only thing on the island is a delightful fudge pie. Can my friend's prayer for me "work" in such a case, with God having no "resources" (i.e. no billboards) to stimulate me to act freely and choose not to eat the pie? Yes, the prayer can indeed work.

I cannot speak for others, but my conception of free will does not entail the notion that God cannot "force" certain thoughts into my head. As long as these thoughts are essentially "information" and not "orders", I can still use my free will faculty to choose to act on that information, thereby quite possibly change my mind and not eat the pie - God thereby fulfills the request.

I can bet that people will object as follows. If Drew has free will to choose to eat that fudge pie, even if God does all the sorts of things as described in the above paragraphs in an effort to get me to not eat that pie, then God cannot guarantee that the prayer of my friend will be answered with a "yes".

Right you are, God cannot guarantee such a "yes" answer. I can think of no scriptural justification to expect that God can do anything that He wants to do. The Scriptures do say:

This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.

1 Timothy 2:3

Are all saved? If not, perhaps God cannot do anything that He wants.

 

[Solo]

When God reveals a detrimental character flaw or sin within a person, to said person, then a combination of freewill and correct choices are available to curtail unhealthy physical and/or spiritual forces. It is possible for God to also remove any cravings that one may have toward nicotine, fudge pie, overeating, sexual sins, etc.

The greatest revelation of God to an individual is the condemnation status of one without the saving grace provided. The Spirit reveals one's need for salvation at God's appointed time, and if the freewill of the individual denies God's salvation, then such a one has chosen for himself, eternal separation from his creator.

 

[Novum]

This is true if Open Theism is correct and no one can trust a god who makes mistakes such as creating man and women who sin WITHOUT purpose, who has to learn about the future as it happens, who has no idea of the hearts of His people and “IF†He does, He’s powerless to affect change.

This is not the God of the Bible.

Translation: I don't like how Open Theism sounds or what its consequences may be, therefore it's false.

Translation: As a non-Christian Open Theism is the least hostile to my beliefs, it’s non-threatening to my worldview and allows me to remain accountable to myself and not God. Therefore, it can’t be all that bad.

JM, you really don't understand what Atheism means, do you?

 

[TanNinety]

Prayer of a closed theist:

"O Lord, I come to you now with a request for help. My daughter has become mixed up in drugs and fornication with her boyfriend who is not a Christian. I have witnessed to them both, but they are both not interested. I am so concerned about my daughter and I ask you Lord to deliver her from her sinfulness and cause her heart to repent.
O Lord, I know that you don’t give us free will and that you will interfere with our choices and that you really know for sure what will happen, she is probably the vessel of dishonor that you have made. Lord, you cannot work in her heart to change her and bring her to repentance because her name probably already is blotted out from the foundations of the world

...there is a pause in his prayer....

O Lord, I am confused on what to ask. I want my daughter to change her ways, and I come to you for help. But, how can that be if you cannot change her heart since it is already decided that she will not turn to you? How then can she repent if you cant change the future from what you already know from your foreknowledge? Perhaps Lord, perhaps you could cause some exceptions in your foreknowledge and grant her to repent and put her name back in the lambs book of life. You can't change the future from what you know.

...another pause....

Why do I even need to pray Lord, for what will happen will happen ..there is no changing your mind? For it is an abomination to think that you can change your mind on things you already decide upon"

 

[sehad]

I'm sure there is a name for the way I believe, but i do not know what it is. My thinking:

GOD knows what WILL happen if you continue in the way you are going. He still knows what the future holds, but the future can change. GOD repented that he even created the children of Isreal when they were in the wilderness because they grumbled against him and he was going to destroy them all if Moses had not stepped in. If he KNEW that they were going to do that, why would he have created them? GOD told Jonah that he was going to destroy Ninevah, but then changed his mind when Ninevah repented of their ways. GOD had Samuel annoint Saul king(meaning that the kingship would be in Saul's lineage for all time), but when Saul forgot who GOD was, GOD had Samuel annoint David king. Why did GOD not annoint Jesse king if he knew that Saul would turn his back on him? GOD will not make you do anything, but he knows what the consequences are that your actions will bring. He can only draw you and pull your heart in a certain direction, but he will not make you go that way. He knows what will happen if you keep a certain direction, but you can change your future.

There is one problem with this thinking, how can GOD know when the antichrist will come? This thinking allows the "known" antichrist to be able to repent and be saved, so what then? All I can say is that it is impossible for a finite human mind to be able to understand an infinite divine individual and plan. Don't believe me, try understanding that GOD has existed forever or try to understand that the universe does not end. It just can't be done.

 

[JM]

Prayer of a closed theist:

"O Lord, I come to you now with a request for help. My daughter has become mixed up in drugs and fornication with her boyfriend who is not a Christian. I have witnessed to them both, but they are both not interested. I am so concerned about my daughter and I ask you Lord to deliver her from her sinfulness and cause her heart to repent.
O Lord, I know that you don’t give us free will and that you will interfere with our choices and that you really know for sure what will happen, she is probably the vessel of dishonor that you have made. Lord, you cannot work in her heart to change her and bring her to repentance because her name probably already is blotted out from the foundations of the world

...there is a pause in his prayer....

O Lord, I am confused on what to ask. I want my daughter to change her ways, and I come to you for help. But, how can that be if you cannot change her heart since it is already decided that she will not turn to you? How then can she repent if you cant change the future from what you already know from your foreknowledge? Perhaps Lord, perhaps you could cause some exceptions in your foreknowledge and grant her to repent and put her name back in the lambs book of life. You can't change the future from what you know.

...another pause....

Why do I even need to pray Lord, for what will happen will happen ..there is no changing your mind? For it is an abomination to think that you can change your mind on things you already decide upon"

:D

Nice try!

God uses us as secondary means, both our good and evil actions to give Him the glory. You are correct, anyone can turn to God with God's help and it's nice to see you use the Bible for a change BUT, the natural man is hostile toward God and the carnal mind cannot be subject to the things of God....hence, we need God to take the heart of stone and make it a heart of flesh.

Ge 50:20 As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good, to bring it about that many people should be kept alive, as they are today.

YOU meant it for evil, God meant it for good. :wink: At the end of the day, God's will be done, God's plan will be accomplished and His glory known. I can rest in God and know that when I work for good it is His will that "worketh in me both to will and to work." When someone goes astray I can pray that God changes their heart, you, the Open Theist cannot and are without hope.

jm

[edit due to error]

 

[thessalonian]

The only part I don't like about the prayer is the denial of free will. Free will is not opposed to God's omniscience. He gives us grace that molds our free will but knows if we will resist that grace or not. I find the doctrine of irresistable grace to be the biggest contention I have with those of a calvinist bent because it violates free will. His grace does not violate our will. I do however not like the standard definition of free will, i.e. the choosing between good and evil. Rather free will is the ability to choose good. We cannot do this without his grace.

God knows the results whether we do his will or not. He knows all possible paths of mankind and in his knowledge he will bring about final victory. Even when the devil attempts to bring about our ruin, it works to God's greater glory because where there is sin, grace abounds, bringing us to repentence if we will but turn to him (by his grace).

 

[Drew]

Nice try!

It is more than a nice try - it is a perfectly coherent critique of what it means for God to have pre-determined all things (which is what I understand you (JM) as believing). Now I cannot emphasize the following enough: If this is not what you believe, please clarify with as much precision and detail as possible.

Tan is perfectly correct to raise such points as:

she is probably the vessel of dishonor that you have made

If one really believes that God pre-destines some for destruction, then it is simply incoherent to pray for their redemption - one's prayers cannot move the heart of God to move her name to the list of those who are to be saved. Of course, one might not know whether a certain person has been pre-destined for destruction, but that makes no difference, the person's eventual "destination" is set in stone. Talk about cognitive dissonance - to pray for some change that you believe is not possible. Any argument to the effect that we do not know whether the daughter is pre-destined for destruction is entirely irrelevant. If we really deep down believe that her fate (whatever it is) has already been determined, it simply makes no sense to pray for her (at least as far as I can see).

I am confused when you write:

anyone can turn to God without God's help

What, exactly, do you mean by this - it sounds like a contradiction to your often-stated view that we need to be "chosen" or "drawn" in order to seek God.

God uses us as secondary means, both our good and evil actions to give Him the glory.....

Ge 50:20 As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good, to bring it about that many people should be kept alive, as they are today.

YOU meant it for evil, God meant it for good.

I could not agree more, but I fail to see how this supports either side of the open theism issue. An open theist will have no problem with this whatsoever. As I have argued in past posts, God's sophistication and wisdom is so surpassingly great that He can adapt and adjust his plans to an "indeterminate" future and still ensure the fulfillment of his will.

 

[Drew]

When someone goes astray I can pray that God changes their heart

Now I am totally confused. To me this statement is entirely inconsistent with what I understand JM's position to be in regard to God's sovereignty. Of course, I may be mistaken about JM's view about God's sovereignty, but I understand him to hold the following view:

"From the beginning of time, God has pre-determined in a specifically causal sense every event that will ever happen in the entire lifetime of the Universe, from the decay of a proton somewhere in some distant galaxy, to my decision to type this very post, to my decision to accept Jesus. There is no event whatsoever that has not been fully determined by God (i.e. without requiring other agents to freely co-operate)". God causes everything, whether directly or indirectly, there is no other agent in the universe that causes anything, except where that agents actions are, in turn, fully caused by God."

I hope that I have written this clearly enough to allow anyone to say: "Yes, I believe this", or "No, I do not believe this".

I am willing to bet that JM will not sign up to the above (which means I do not fully understand his position and we have an opportunity for clarification).

Is it not clear that anyone who beleives the material in blue simply cannot sensibly "pray that God changes someone's heart". Such a prayer is non-sensible precisely because the person who prays believes that status of that person's heart has been fully and irrevocably determined by God billions of year ago.

 

[unred typo]

My own personal version of this scenario:
"O Lord, I come to you now with a request for help. My daughter has become mixed up in drugs and fornication with her boyfriend who is not a Christian. You know I have witnessed to them both, telling them that if they do not repent the consequences could be very painful, but the important thing is that while they are distracted by these lusts and addictions, Satan will try to keep them from discovering the freedom and life that is in Christ. I am so concerned about my daughter and I ask you Lord to deliver her from her sinfulness and cause her heart to repent as only you can do in a miraculous way that they will realize only could have come from you.

O Lord, I know that you gave us free will and that you will not interfere with our choices and that you allow us to make these bad choices to teach us and to test us to know for sure what is in our hearts, but Lord, you can bring all situations together to work in her heart to change her and bring her to repentance. I know that this is going to be a hard test for me to show love for both of them and not just my daughter. Help me to think of ways to show them how much I love them. Bring us into situations that will make us realize how dangerous their lifestyle is, but please protect her from Satan‘s attempts to end their lives. Give me words to say that will impact them and not push them away, unless you know they must sink lower before they will come to themselves in that pig pen of life. I know that you speak to us in dreams and thoughts that we can hear. You can have them arrested and hinder their efforts to buy drugs. I know you can take away their money and health. I know you can cause her to have a near death experience that will put the fear of God into their heart.

...there is a pause in his prayer....

O Lord, help me to not fear what you can do to cause her to repent. I trust you and I have faith that you can do great things for them. Help diminish my unbelief. I know you speak to me in the most personal ways and my heart is encouraged to trust you more. I especially liked the way that the fortune cookie saying stuck to my shoe at the Chinese restaurant. When I had just been praying and my heart was heavy, and I picked it up and read, “a friend will always be with you in your troubleâ€Â, I knew it was you speaking. Thank you for your Spirit that speaks to me when I need you most and who prays for me when I am unable to know what to ask for.

I know it’s hard to get people into her life to help bring her around because your people are so good at making excuses, but please keep those deceitful workers of Satan away from them that would tell them the lie that you have already determined where they will spend eternity. Sometimes I feel it is those things she heard on a ‘Christian’ TV program that have caused her to feel life is just a cruel game and now she is sure that she is not one of the ‘elect.’ I actually heard her boyfriend tell her that, if they are saved or lost before the world was formed, then nothing can change that so they might as well party until they die.

O Lord, I love her more than life. If losing me would be the shock she needs to turn this around, please take my life. I can do all things through Christ. I know you love her more than even I could so I trust you to do whatever you can to bring her to repentance and new life and obedience to Christ.

...another pause....

Lord, there is no God like you, a just God full of mercy and love. "

 

[JM]

Ok, I’ve had it.

As many of you know I suffer from insomnia and it’s been a trying week, add the open theist profanation of God’s sovereign will to the mix, and I made an error in posting while trying to defend the faith. I corrected the post and quote what I believe:

Chapter 5: Of Divine Providence
1. God the good Creator of all things, in his infinite power and wisdom doth uphold, direct, dispose, and govern all creatures and things, from the greatest even to the least, by his most wise and holy providence, to the end for the which they were created, according unto his infallible foreknowledge, and the free and immutable counsel of his own will; to the praise of the glory of his wisdom, power, justice, infinite goodness, and mercy.
( Hebrews 1:3; Job 38:11; Isaiah 46:10, 11; Psalms 135:6; Matthew 10:29-31; Ephesians 1:11 )
2. Although in relation to the foreknowledge and decree of God, the first cause, all things come to pass immutably and infallibly; so that there is not anything befalls any by chance, or without his providence; yet by the same providence he ordereth them to fall out according to the nature of second causes, either necessarily, freely, or contingently.
( Acts 2:23; Proverbs 16:33; Genesis 8:22 )
3. God, in his ordinary providence maketh use of means, yet is free to work without, above, and against them at his pleasure.
( Acts 27:31, 44; Isaiah 55:10, 11; Hosea 1:7; Romans 4:19-21; Daniel 3:27 )
4. The almighty power, unsearchable wisdom, and infinite goodness of God, so far manifest themselves in his providence, that his determinate counsel extendeth itself even to the first fall, and all other sinful actions both of angels and men; and that not by a bare permission, which also he most wisely and powerfully boundeth, and otherwise ordereth and governeth, in a manifold dispensation to his most holy ends; yet so, as the sinfulness of their acts proceedeth only from the creatures, and not from God, who, being most holy and righteous, neither is nor can be the author or approver of sin.
( Romans 11:32-34; 2 Samuel 24:1, 1 Chronicles 21:1; 2 Kings 19:28; Psalms 76;10; Genesis 1:20; Isaiah 10:6, 7, 12; Psalms 1:21; 1 John 2:16 )
5. The most wise, righteous, and gracious God doth oftentimes leave for a season his own children to manifold temptations and the corruptions of their own hearts, to chastise them for their former sins, or to discover unto them the hidden strength of corruption and deceitfulness of their hearts, that they may be humbled; and to raise them to a more close and constant dependence for their support upon himself; and to make them more watchful against all future occasions of sin, and for other just and holy ends. So that whatsoever befalls any of his elect is by his appointment, for his glory, and their good.
( 2 Chronicles 32:25, 26, 31; 2 Corinthians 12:7-9; Romans 8:28 )
6. As for those wicked and ungodly men whom God, as the righteous judge, for former sin doth blind and harden; from them he not only withholdeth his grace, whereby they might have been enlightened in their understanding, and wrought upon their hearts; but sometimes also withdraweth the gifts which they had, and exposeth them to such objects as their corruption makes occasion of sin; and withal, gives them over to their own lusts, the temptations of the world, and the power of Satan, whereby it comes to pass that they harden themselves, under those means which God useth for the softening of others.
( Romans 1:24-26, 28; Romans 11:7, 8; Deuteronomy 29:4; Matthew 13:12; Deuteronomy 2:30; 2 Kings 8:12, 13; Psalms 81:11, 12; 2 Thessalonians 2:10-12; Exodus 8:15, 32; Isaiah 6:9, 10; 1 Peter 2:7, 8 )
7. As the providence of God doth in general reach to all creatures, so after a more special manner it taketh care of his church, and disposeth of all things to the good thereof.
( 1 Timothy 4:10; Amos 9:8, 9; Isaiah 43:3-5 )

For a detailed study on the early Church and these mighty doctrines of the Bible, may I suggest you read, “the Cause of God and Truth†by Dr. John Gill. It’s a solid refutation of man centered doctrines: http://www.pbministries.org/books/gill/ ... hive.htm#5

Carm.org has solid material as well: http://www.carm.org/open.htm
John MacArthur and the open theists attack on the atonement: http://www.ondoctrine.com/2mac0103.htm

Here’s a list of books that put the final nail in the coffin of open theism: http://www.jude3.net/open_theism.htm

Remember to study and look for the anthropomorphisms used by God in His holy word to us.

With that said, I’m turning to a new subject for a while, something I’ve been trying to study the last couple of weeks and found myself side tracked with Drew’s constant deviation from orthodox doctrine. It was never my intention to hurt the feelings of anyone, pray for each other, pray for me.

May God unite us on this and other issues in the future.

JM

 

[lovely]

JM,

You have my prayers as you study. I understand insomnia, and I am going to pray that God grant you good peaceful rest. JM, do not be discouraged, God is in control of all, and we will keep studying. Thank you for the books, and the encouragment. The Lord bless you.

lovely

 

[TanNinety]

Ok, I’ve had it.

add the open theist profanation of God’s sovereign will to the mix

found myself side tracked with Drew’s constant deviation from orthodox doctrine.

Amusing. Claims without evidence. History does repeat itself in JM’s posts.

Still waiting on that scripture verse lovely, that me and Drew can attempt which suggest God knows and decided the future exhaustively