Bible Study The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off

[stovebolts]

Hi Josh,

I know it's a bit to wrap your head around. Where I was coming from, was a Jewish perspective and not that of a gentile perspective. I always try to keep in mind how those who heard the words may have received them. Knowing that the Jews had the Torah memorized by age 9 and by 13 or so had the whole Bible memorized including oral tradition only adds to how they may have received it.

So, I won't try to reprogram you lol, but I will do a copy paste from Jewish commentary and boy I'm telling you, I copied this directly out of my book and my fingers are tired lol. I'll post one verse first and maybe I'll get a chance to type the rest of today. If not today, I'll get it to you as soon as I can.

Jewish commentary: Ramban Nachmandides / Shemot (Exodus) BTW, I have the complete Torah. Great stuff.
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Exodus 20:6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

It appears from the sense of the verse that this Divine assurance is with respect to the subject-matter of the commandments that He mentioned. He is thus saying that to those that love Him, He will show mercy to their thousandth generation. These are the ones who sacrifice their lives for Him, for they are the ones who acknowledge only the Glorious Name and His G-dship and deny all strange gods, refusing to worship them even if they are in mortal danger. They are called â€the lovers [of G-D], “for this is the kind of love that we have been obligated to observe even at the sacrifice of life, just as He has said, And thou shalt love the Eternal thy G-d with all they heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might, *363(Deut 6:5) meaning that you should give your very life because of your love of Him, that you should not alter Him for another god, nor join Him together with a strange god. It is for this reason that [the prophet] said of Abraham, the seed of Abraham my friend, 364 [Isaiah 41:8. See Mainonides’ “The commandments, “ Vol I, p.4] since he risked his life in order not to worship the idols in Ur of the Chaldees. 365 [See Ramban on Genesis 11:28 (Vol 1, pp. 156-161)] The rest of the righteous are called those that keep My commandments.

Now many scholars 366[Sotah 31a(Rashi), Sanhedrin 10(Ramban)] have explained that “His lovers†are those who worship Him without the intention of receiving a reward, just as our Sages have mentioned 367 [Aboth 1:3, “Be not like servants who minister t their Master with the intention of receiving a reward; but be like the servants who minister to their Master without the intention of receiving a reward.â€] But I have found in the Mechilta that it is said: 368 [Mechilta on the verse here] “Of them that love Me. This refers to Abraham and those like him. And those that keep My commandments. This refers to the prophets and the elders. Rabbi Nathan says that the verse, of them that love Me and keep My commandments, refers to those who dwell in the Land of Israel and give their lives for the commandments. 369 [long commentary I’m not going to type having to do with persecution by the Roman emperor Hadriah 117-138 CE] “Why are you being led out to be executed? “, “Because I have circumcised my son.†“Why are you being led out to be burned?†“ Because I read the Torah.†[ This goes on for several examples] “Why are you being lashed with the whip?†“Because I took the lulav†371 [The Palm branch, Lev 23:40] And it says, Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends 372 [Zechariah 13:6] These are the wounds which have caused me to become beloved of My Father in heaven.†Thus Rabbi Nathan explained that the love [of G-d, which is referred t in the verse before us], meant the sacrifice of life for the sake of the commandments. Now the verse here certainly refers to idolatry, for it is with reference to it that we are obligated at all times forever to suffer death rather than transgress [the law] 373 [Sanhedrin 74a. See Rambam, Mishneh Torah, Hilchoth Yesodei Hatorah 5:2-3] But Rabbi Nathan broadened the matter to include all the commandments, such as … (and it lists many additions I don’t want to type)…

… However, there is a secret in this [Mechilta]: Abraham risked his life in love 375* [see below *] – something like it is written, mercy to Abraham 376 [Micah 7:20 “Know that mercy is love†(Ma’or V’shamesh).] – and the rest of the prophets in g’vurah (might) 375* Understand this.

*375
Abusaula, in his commentary on the mystic passages in Ramban, explains this as follows: “ Abraham’s power revealed itself in mercy, while that of therest of the prophets in the ameliorated Divine attribute of justice.†See Ramban, Genesis Vol 1 p. 543

 

[stovebolts]

Ok, here is the other part.

Before you read this, do a search in Matthew on where Jesus talks about "This Generation". With that, key in on the commentary below. Keep in mind, we're getting a Jewish point of view here. For me, it's important to look at these texts through their eyes.
Start with this one (and I know you'll finish reading the story Jesus tells)
Matthew 11:15-16 He that hath ears to hear, let him hear. But whereunto shall I liken this generation? It is like unto children sitting in the markets, and calling unto their fellows,...

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[FONT=&quot]5. visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Two pages of elaboration on other commentators that I'm nto going to type…[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]… But their explanations in not correct. Scripture mentions G-d’s remembrance of all of them equally, and it does not specify that the vengeance is exacted [only] in the end, i.e., on the fourth generation. Besides, the term p’kidah in conjunction with the word al – [as it occurs here: ‘pokeid’ avon avoth ‘al’ banim] – is not used in connection with remembrance, but rather signifies vengeance [or punishment]. Thus: and on the day ‘pokdi upakad’ti’ (that I do punish, I will punish) them for their sins; 346[Further 32:34] In that day ‘yiphkod hashem’ (the eternal will punish) with his sore and great and strong sword leviathan the slant serpent, and leviathan the tortuous serpent, and He will saly the dragon that is in the sea: 347 [Isaiah 27:1] “yiphkod hashem’ (the eternal will punish) the host of the high heaven on high 348 (Ibid 24:21) All of these are expression of vengeance and punishment. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]The correct interpretation this appears t me to be that Scripture is stating that He visits the iniquity, which the father perpetrated, upon his children, and excises them on account of the iniquity of their father, something like it is said, Prepare ye slaughter for his children for the iniquity of their fathers. 349 (Ibid 14:21) Similarly, He visits it upon the third generation if he sin of the two generations is not yet full, something like [it is said], for the iniquity of the Amorite is not yet full. 350 [Genesis 15:16] Sometimes He visitis the iniquity of all three generations upon the fourth one when their measure [of iniquity] is filled and then he excises them. But in the fifth generation, no one is punished for the iniquity of his ancestor int eh first generation. Now in the book of Deuteronomy, [Where the Ten Commandments are restated], He added a vav [to the expression ‘al shileishim’ (Unto the third generation), thus making it] ‘v’al’ shileishim v’al ribei’m l’sonai. 351 [Deut 5:9] But the meaning of the vav [there is nto the usual ‘and’] but “or” – [“ ‘or’ unto the third generation ‘or’ unto the fourth generation of them that hate me” – as explained above].[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Now Rabbi Abraham ibn Ezra wrote that children’s children are called “children”. This is why He used the briefer term. 352 {I’m not typing an extra page.. sorry} You can understand this from the terms shileishim (the third generation) and ribei’im (the fourth generation). 353 [more on Rabbi Ezra I’m not going to type]. But this is not so. Shileishim means the third generation in that sin. [Hence it includes on the father, his children and this children’s children.] (More on this subject that I’m not going to type…) [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Now scripture states [that this attribute of punishment applies only to] those that hate me. That is, if the children hate G-d. If the sinner begot a righteous son, he does not bear the iniquity of the father, as [the prophet] Ezekiel has explained. 357 Ezekiel 18:20.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]About another two paragraphs I’m going to skip…[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]… It is possible that this strict measure [of punishment that is imposed on a sinner and which is felt up to the fourth generation] applies only to idolatry, for it is with regard to this prohibition that He is warning here. However, in the rest fo the commandments, [the rule applies that] every one shall die of his iniquity. 360 [Jeremiah 31:30] You will find the hidden secret of visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children in the Book of Ecclesiastes. *361 {see note below} I have already written concerning it. 362 [Genesis 38:8 Vol 1 pp. 469-470][/FONT]

· [FONT=&quot]361[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]The allusion is to the verse, One generation passeth away, and another generation cometh (Ecc 4:1), upon which the Sefer Habahir commented: “that hath come already.” This means that the generation that passes away had come into the sins of the father “that had come already” in the previous generation, and the sins of the father are now visited upon the son, etc. (Ma’or V’shamesh). The mystic doctrine of the transmigration of the souls is thus alluded to here.
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[FONT=&quot]Matthew 23:34-36 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city: That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar. Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.[/FONT]


[FONT=&quot]The way I see it Josh, and we can study it also, is that like Exodus 32:4, God had been turned into an idol much in the same manner that Eve turned God into an idol.[/FONT]


[FONT=&quot]Have a great weekend!
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[stovebolts]

Let A = those afar off, and let B = idolators

What if we looked at it like this.
Let A = those afar off, and let B = those who love God in contrast of those who put the prophets to death, thus hate god. oops, we're talking about the same people aren't we? Repentance, what a beautiful transformation wouldn't you agree?

When we look at the passage in Acts, and I know we've been over this. But they were Jews that didn't live in Isreal. They were Jews that lived in other nations that had come to Jerusalem for passover, then pentecost per Exodus 23. (No mention of Yom Kipur later as it's no longer needed). Jesus told the Apostles to preach the gospel to all the nations, but he also called the gentiles dogs. At this point Peter is unwilling to go to the gentiles as we've already discussed. So, from a Jewish perspective, wouldn't those "afar off", again, from the ones hearing Peters words at the time, wouldn't they be thinking of their kin in other nations?

Just a thought...

 

[Nathan]

I think that you are looking at it correctly. I can not say I have ever contemplated it before, but it seems about right to make the assumption that Peter was indeed addressing (whether he knew it or not) the sins and the relationship to the warning God made concerning generations to come.

I am pretty sure that this speech by Peter was not something that he came up with. In fact, now that I really think about it Peter was filled with the Holy Spirit in a way that had never been seen before. I am going to guess that what he said following it was/is very relevant to the specific people standing there, and not just a open ended conversation. If you know what I mean.

Peter was not just randomly speaking words that meant different things to different people, and that were meant to be 'applied' to those of us down through the ages of Christianity. That is not to say that we cannot apply what he said, but I think you are right in the application was directed at the specific group of people standing there that day.

Good stuff Jeff. I am standing over here in the 'kiddy pool' watching you guys play in the big pool.