The REAL number one problem in Christian theology

[Brother Lawrence]

What will it take to get people who do not believe in Christianity to stop posing as Christians?

 

[Bonairos]

What will it take to get people who do not believe in Christianity to stop posing as Christians? (empasis mine)

One way might be for discerning Christians to expose the wolves in sheeps clothing. And by exposing I don't mean arguing or judging an individual. But rather having the wolves speak, not letting up on their inconsistencies, and allowing them to be snared by the words of their own mouths.

For out of the abundance of one's heart . . .



Be blessed, Stay blessed, and be Bold!

 

[childeye]

One way might be for discerning Christians to expose the wolves in sheeps clothing. And by exposing I don't mean arguing or judging an individual. But rather having the wolves speak, not letting up on their inconsistencies, and allowing them to be snared by the words of their own mouths.

For out of the abundance of one's heart . . .



Be blessed, Stay blessed, and be Bold!

Well said. All lies at the end of reasoning are revealed as hypocrisy. The devil however uses semantics to cause division through misunderstandings. God's Love which says love your enemies will prevail. Blessed is His love that overcomes all our pettiness.

 

[jasoncran]

What will it take to get people who do not believe in Christianity to stop posing as Christians?

i would like know why athiests do that alot. i dont get that at all.if you KNOW God isnt real then why bother with him? they must doubt and actually know he is real and want to quiet his serveants so that they can sin all they want.

poe forums and poes gotta love em.

 

[Elijah674]

What will it take to get people who do not believe in Christianity to stop posing as Christians?

The War is always here until God ENDS IT. It never stops. Even see Acts 5. It will only stop when God permits the 666 Final Sunday Law death decree.

There are only TWO Camp's [SEPERATED] at that Final FINISH. (Matt. 6:24 Douay) When Christ's Faith costs ones choice of living or dieing for Him, all will then see who it is that are 'REAL' Christian's!

--Elijah

 

[jasoncran]

The War is always here until God ENDS IT. It never stops. Even see Acts 5. It will only stop when God permits the 666 Final Sunday Law death decree.

There are only TWO Camp's [SEPERATED] at that Final FINISH. (Matt. 6:24 Douay) When Christ's Faith costs ones choice of living or dieing for Him, all will then see who it is that are 'REAL' Christian's!

--Elijah

since when are christians jews? and uh yeah right on that sunday thing. so we should be doing the shabat. btw which starts on FRIDAY at 6pm and ends SATURDAY at 6PM.so if you services for the sda are after saturday at 6pm. guess what it aint the sabbath.


just pointing out something. where in the world in the bible do you get the number of the beast means that law? show me some commentary and or verses. six is the number of man.

 

[Brother Lawrence]

It strikes me that the bare minimum for being a "Christian" is being able to say Jesus the Christ is who he says he is.

 

[Brother Lawrence]

But rather having the wolves speak, not letting up on their inconsistencies, and allowing them to be snared by the words of their own mouths.

Then they will come back to you with out of context Bible verses like this:

Have nothing to do with foolish, ignorant controversies; you know that they breed quarrels. - 2 Timothy 2:23

The REAL problem is the perverted version of Sola Scriptura many people practice, which allows the "wolves" to reject the historical teachings of the church and the teachings of scholars past and present and assign their own "interpretation" to scripture, ignoring the historical and textual context in which the verse was written, and say "MY interpretation is the best one".

 

[smaller]

The War is always here until God ENDS IT. It never stops. Even see Acts 5. It will only stop when God permits the 666 Final Sunday Law death decree.

There are only TWO Camp's [SEPERATED] at that Final FINISH. (Matt. 6:24 Douay) When Christ's Faith costs ones choice of living or dieing for Him, all will then see who it is that are 'REAL' Christian's!

--Elijah

Learn a lesson from christian history.

"Every" christian sect claims they had or will have persecution over their subjective determinations of doctrinal correctness.

It is 'all' subjectively determined nonsense.

All of us are factually persecuted every day of our lives by the presence of sin within our hearts. That sin is 'not' eradicted by correct doctrinal performances, such as 'not going to church on Sunday but Saturday' or 'not eating pork'

Persecution of any kind as well as the associated 'tribulations' that we 'all' suffer is a direct cause of sin.

Same with the conversation of this thread.

Christians will divide over a single letter in the Bible. I've seen it happen, many times. They will even go so far as to condemn other believers to burn alive forever. That is the ultimate working of sin in them. To overlook their own sin and condemn others for theirs. Over doctrinal correctness no less.

And we all do so because of the presence of SIN. It's that simple.

I believe the 'church fathers' did a great service to us in their Trinity deliberations, but they did NOT do any of us a service whatsoever in forcing the hatred of our fellow contemplators of these matters.

That, imho, was their great error. They brought out the eternal branding iron rather than their reasoning abilities.

God is very patient in His Reasonings with us all, understanding that we have a cause of collective blindness that appears to be fully operational at all times in these various disputes. The over riding factor in all of us is the power of sin that comes to the fore in any of these diversions.

In the end, matters of doctrine are matters of conscience. One must follow their hearts. But if their hearts leads them into condemnation, them as believing sinners in condemnation of other believing sinners, then they have been taken captive by the enemy in their heart, openly shown. Though I do not blame a believer for operating in that realm, knowing the 'real' cause that is not them, I do recognize the activity and where it is from.

Who of us is capable of putting God in any type of box, and then claiming woe upon another based on that mystery and limited vision? The whole practice is quite preposterous.

enjoy!

s

 

[Free]

In the end, matters of doctrine are matters of conscience. One must follow their hearts.

Clearly this cannot be the case. This is the equivalent of saying truth is subjective, in which case the Bible is essentially irrelevant. Following one's heart is precisely why there is so much disagreement in theology.

Correct doctrine is important since people behave based on what they believe to be true. Orthodoxy leads to orthopraxy.

 

[Elijah674]

Lets see some of the Word God about their Godhead's Box?? Inspiration has it in Eccl. 1:9-10 + Eccl. 3:15 with nothing new! (Salvational that is) Twice we see it repeated there in seperate verses + places, huh?

Then God again told us that in Gen. 41:32 that when we see God DOCUMENTING a thing TWICE 'DOUBLED' 'it is ESTABLISHED BY GOD, and He will shortly bring it to pass'. (and time with God is not important)

OK: Twice the Godhead will TEST His Rom. 2:28-29 (Jews??) Born Again ones on just one of Their Eternal Testimony(The Exod. one! Exod. 25:21-22) of Heb. 13:20! All one needs to do is find the FIRST TESTING! These professed ones were tested on just the [ONE] forth 7th Day Sabbath Commandment to see [IF] they safe to go into their land of Cannon. (perhaps some here are looking to do the same?)

Note verses 4-5 in Exodus 16 'THAT [I MAY PROVE THEM] WHEATHER THEY [WILL WALK IN MY LAW]'

And it does not take much brain power to see verse 26-28, to see that only the 7th day Sabbath Commandment is that test which is to be repeated history which finds you'all ... How long [REFUSE] ye to KEEP MY COMMANDMENTS and My LAWS?]

Regardless of what the Rev. 17:1-5 ones claim, this is about the only thing that you all (Dan. 7:25 ones) are in agreement with rome on, sun. worship apostasy + saved 'in' sin. For breaking any one of the ten is open sin! 1 John 3:4. And not from sin. James 2:8-12 is the Standard for one being finally saved to see if they are 'IN Christ' or just fakes.

--Elijah

 

[Brother Lawrence]

Learn a lesson from christian history.

"Every" christian sect claims they had or will have persecution over their subjective determinations of doctrinal correctness.

And many were wrong. So?

That sin is 'not' eradicted by correct doctrinal performances, such as 'not going to church on Sunday but Saturday' or 'not eating pork'

No, it is eradicated by knowing who your redeemer is.

Persecution of any kind as well as the associated 'tribulations' that we 'all' suffer is a direct cause of sin.

Same with the conversation of this thread.

??????????

Christians will divide over a single letter in the Bible. I've seen it happen, many times. They will even go so far as to condemn other believers to burn alive forever. That is the ultimate working of sin in them. To overlook their own sin and condemn others for theirs. Over doctrinal correctness no less.

Well, that's a bit hyperbolic, but the reality is that some people just get it wrong and some get it right.

I believe the 'church fathers' did a great service to us in their Trinity deliberations, but they did NOT do any of us a service whatsoever in forcing the hatred of our fellow contemplators of these matters.

Names, please?

That, imho, was their great error. They brought out the eternal branding iron rather than their reasoning abilities.

Nonsense. Perhaps you have heard of Aquinas or Augustine.

God is very patient in His Reasonings with us all, understanding that we have a cause of collective blindness that appears to be fully operational at all times in these various disputes.

I will have to ask you to speak for yourself, sir.

In the end, matters of doctrine are matters of conscience.

In the end, doctrine is a matter of truth vs. falsehood, but also honesty and dishonesty. Your day of rest (I worship God every day) and whether or not you eat pork or eat fish on Friday is not a matter of salvation, yet people have tried to compare traditions such as these to questions over whether or not Jesus is "fully God", which is proclaimed by every authentic denomination, Catholic or Protestant.

Don't try to minimize Christian doctrine, and don't try to tell me it's a matter of conscience, because some people have no conscience.

Who of us is capable of putting God in any type of box, and then claiming woe upon another based on that mystery and limited vision? The whole practice is quite preposterous.

Who of us is capable of telling us that the god revealed in scripture is not the god we know, calling us "preposterous" for taking God at His word?

 

[jasoncran]

i wonder what smaller says of this"and they continued in the doctrine of the apostles"

seems to me that the idea of a doctrine was already in place before the bible was placed together. yes men have abused that to think they were the only group going to heaven but as agustine said" essentials unity,non-essentials-liberty and in all things LOVE'

i learned that from amillienlist and calvinist at that on the radio.sheesh i attend a pre-trib church and dont even bother arguing end times there. if they ask i state why i disagree and leave it at that. i can attend any basic christian church from the calvinist, to catholics to the messianic jews and also baptists and so forth. yet remain having my own opinions on eschatology and other areas.

 

[smaller]

Clearly this cannot be the case. This is the equivalent of saying truth is subjective, in which case the Bible is essentially irrelevant.

The reasoned facts for me Free, is that I acknowledge seeing only in part. That is a reasoned piece of humble pie that remains ever present. I will be gaining no 'absolute Truth' in that condition. That to me is a reasoned fact. I acknowledge the fact, and the fact is absolute, that we all see only in part.

Do you consider that reasonable? Do you consider that absolute? I do.

So, as it applies to this particular subject, Trinity, I conclude with the determinations, also acknowledging as the Trinity determiners prior, the very big caveat of Mystery. Yes, there is a box named Trinity, but within that box resides Eternal Mystery. I nod as much as possible to the latter fact.

There does exist another fact in making claims of Absolute determinations for the 'religious' mind. That fact is 'a trap.' One that sets a man on his high horse of eternal condemnation. I refuse to ride that beast within. That is what my conscience has advised me. Some understandings I will bow to. Some I cannot, as they foster megalomania within. I am not that bold nor do I want to be. It is a trap set in the scriptures to show us what is within us.

Following one's heart is precisely why there is so much disagreement in theology.

There are very secure ways to approach these matters. So, I would ask a simpler question. Which is more important? To rigidly adhere to every jot and tittle of Triune understandings, or to walk in love to our fellow believers? To me one can take a greater or lesser position of one or the other. Stand too hard on Triune and the cost of love, and one is not only trapped, but a loser in the battle to love. That is what my heart has been advised by The Spirit. My heart is more important than the decent into personal condemnation of others. No one sees good enough to 'do that' imho. Particularly not so as partial seers of Mystery.

Correct doctrine is important since people behave based on what they believe to be true. Orthodoxy leads to orthopraxy.

Orthodoxy makes that claim, but look at where it has taken them. Eastern Orthodoxy openly condemns heresy upon The RCC adherents, and vice versa, both of them standing on a dispute over 4 little words of the RCC determination, 'and of [or from] the Son' aka the filioque. Did orthodoxy do themselves any inner favors by landing there? I think NOT. In fact I believe it is downright bizarre. Two great institutions of Christianity, openly flailing each others for centuries over 4 little words. I say they have merely brought internal sickness upon their hearts, and a very large dose of 'self' justifications. Over 4 little words.

In that, their 'Absolute Truth' of this matter has turned them into WOLVES imho. They seek to devour each others over 4 little words, and that is a praxy that I can not tolerate for myself. In that practice, the lair of the wolf takes hold within. And one becomes a slave of the wolf, all the while claiming the bleat of a sheep.

enjoy!

s

 

[jasoncran]

on that note. i follow god with my heart therefore since 'doctrines" arent needed and any good loving man or women without respect of faith that loves and doesnt hurt fellow man is ok.

therefore as of this moment i am a satan worshipper as satan has been mislabeled by the christians. he teaches love. some christians hate him.

seriously i have heard this from some.satanist teach that and so in part does free masonry. that wouldnt be accepted by God. theres has to be a doctrinal statement this is fact and that is heresy or the above can occur.

 

[Free]

The reasoned facts for me Free, is that I acknowledge seeing only in part. That is a reasoned piece of humble pie that remains ever present. I will be gaining no 'absolute Truth' in that condition. That to me is a reasoned fact. I acknowledge the fact, and the fact is absolute, that we all see only in part.

Do you consider that reasonable? Do you consider that absolute? I do.

I agree that we all see only in part but I strongly disagree that one can gain no absolute truth in that condition. I still stand by my point: "This is the equivalent of saying truth is subjective, in which case the Bible is essentially irrelevant. Following one's heart is precisely why there is so much disagreement in theology."

So, as it applies to this particular subject, Trinity, I conclude with the determinations, also acknowledging as the Trinity determiners prior, the very big caveat of Mystery. Yes, there is a box named Trinity, but within that box resides Eternal Mystery. I nod as much as possible to the latter fact.

There does exist another fact in making claims of Absolute determinations for the 'religious' mind. That fact is 'a trap.' One that sets a man on his high horse of eternal condemnation. I refuse to ride that beast within. That is what my conscience has advised me. Some understandings I will bow to. Some I cannot, as they foster megalomania within. I am not that bold nor do I want to be. It is a trap set in the scriptures to show us what is within us.

There are very secure ways to approach these matters. So, I would ask a simpler question. Which is more important? To rigidly adhere to every jot and tittle of Triune understandings, or to walk in love to our fellow believers? To me one can take a greater or lesser position of one or the other. Stand too hard on Triune and the cost of love, and one is not only trapped, but a loser in the battle to love. That is what my heart has been advised by The Spirit. My heart is more important than the decent into personal condemnation of others. No one sees good enough to 'do that' imho. Particularly not so as partial seers of Mystery.

The Trinity is not the subject of this thread.

Orthodoxy makes that claim, but look at where it has taken them. Eastern Orthodoxy openly condemns heresy upon The RCC adherents, and vice versa, both of them standing on a dispute over 4 little words of the RCC determination, 'and of [or from] the Son' aka the filioque. Did orthodoxy do themselves any inner favors by landing there? I think NOT. In fact I believe it is downright bizarre. Two great institutions of Christianity, openly flailing each others for centuries over 4 little words. I say they have merely brought internal sickness upon their hearts, and a very large dose of 'self' justifications. Over 4 little words.

In that, there 'Absolute Truth' of this matter has turned them into WOLVES imho. They seek to devour each others over 4 little words, and that is a praxy that I can not tolerate for myself.

I said "orthodoxy," not "Eastern Orthodox." Orthodoxy means "right belief" and orthopraxy "right practice," whereas Eastern Orthodox is a particular branch of Christianity.

 

[smaller]

And many were wrong. So?

A more honest admittance to me is that we all factually see 'in part only.' Who then in that fact has perfect doctrine?

No one. When a man admits that he may, just may, be a part see-er only, these matters take a far lesser role. For every doctrinal hardline adherent, there is also a liar present because the fact is we all see only in part. All all hardline doctrinal adherents cannot come to this simple conclusion. That all doctrines are partial sighted by nature of our partial sight. Yet they all claim absolute superiority, one over the other.

What then is the commonality there? Absolute Perfect Doctrine, and absolute denial of partial sight.

No, it is eradicated by knowing who your redeemer is.

And that's all fine. Now which version of Jesus doctrinal paint do your want to apply to your lips? All such applications are partial sighted in any case of determinations. This much is a fact. A person in Truth will admit to the facts first and the fact is no one is that factual in partial sight.

All seek perfect doctrine, and rightfully so, but an application of truth should come before any of same.

Well, that's a bit hyperbolic, but the reality is that some people just get it wrong and some get it right.

The myriad of divisions that have taken hold within all churches are exactly built on this ground. 'Some have it right.' That being each individual. All think they have it right and none admit partial sight. There seems to be a slight flaw in logic in the entirety of the matters.

Names, please?

There were many early conventions for these matters.

Nonsense. Perhaps you have heard of Aquinas or Augustine.

Insert whoever you want. All of the determinants had sin, and all were partial sighted and NONE of them admitted that fact when it came to their 'hardlines.' Had any of them done so, I may have listened to more of what they had to say. So as in any 'handler' of the Word, some have some right and ALL have some wrong.

Now, go find ANY that admit they may have some wrong....lol with that.

I will have to ask you to speak for yourself, sir.

I admit to these facts. Evil is present with me and I have sin indwelling my flesh, which same actions in thought, word or deed is of the devil. Therefore I acknowledge my personal subjectivity, and I see so in everyone else as well regardless of their personal claims to the contrary.

These facts alone casts a pall upon us all. No man stands in complete LIGHT. This is an absolute, seen in partial vision.

Claimants can claim all they want. But who is fit to state the obvious about themselves? Only those who know their weaknesses, and do not excuse them or brush them away as if these were not factual scriptural matters.

In the end, doctrine is a matter of truth vs. falsehood, but also honesty and dishonesty. Your day of rest (I worship God every day) and whether or not you eat pork or eat fish on Friday is not a matter of salvation,

And that depends entirely on 'who' you ask. You can substitute fish, pork, Saturday or Sunday and a different response will come from every sect who has made their stands on all of these matters, most of which result in condemnations to others who do not so adhere.

What then is the commonality of their subjective truths? They have all landed squarely in condemnation to others and self justifications. The scriptures have revealed them in their commonality.

yet people have tried to compare traditions such as these to questions over whether or not Jesus is "fully God", which is proclaimed by every authentic denomination, Catholic or Protestant.

Any close examinations will reveal that their sects jots and tittles on every matter keeps them all divided one way or another despite the broader claims. They have reams and scores of sub paragraphs to each and every determination and are all lawyers in heart. What do lawyers seek to do? Ask Jesus. The text is filled with examples of how to recognize them 'by their works.'

Don't try to minimize Christian doctrine, and don't try to tell me it's a matter of conscience, because some people have no conscience.

Indeed. A wolf has no conscience whatsoever. They only seek to devour prey.

Who of us is capable of telling us that the god revealed in scripture is not the god we know, calling us "preposterous" for taking God at His word?

Take God at His Word. We all have our faults. That is the ground of sound doctrines. Absolute adherents of any fashion, when it comes to devouring others, have simply had their own hearts revealed by the scriptures and proved the fault lies within them. Yet none of them see it, standing instead on their personally subjective Absolute so called Truths.

enjoy!

smaller

 

[smaller]

I agree that we all see only in part but I strongly disagree that one can gain no absolute truth in that condition. I still stand by my point: "This is the equivalent of saying truth is subjective, in which case the Bible is essentially irrelevant. Following one's heart is precisely why there is so much disagreement in theology."

There are far more certain paths of security to walk in where no fault will be found whatsoever. So I ask, where are all of these matters in Absolute Doctrines?

Gal. 5:
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

I may also say if there is doctrine against such things, they are ALL patently false.

The Trinity is not the subject of this thread.

That was the matter in the first post, to Divide God from Jesus Christ aka a matter of Trinity.

I said "orthodoxy," not "Eastern Orthodox." Orthodoxy means "right belief" and orthopraxy "right practice," whereas Eastern Orthodox is a particular branch of Christianity.

All sects are sects.

 

[Free]

There are far more certain paths of security to walk in where no fault will be found whatsoever. So I ask, where are all of these matters in Absolute Doctrines?

Gal. 5:
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

I may also say if there is doctrine against such things, they are ALL patently false.

How does this address my point?

That was the matter in the first post, to Divide God from Jesus Christ aka a matter of Trinity.

You must have the wrong thread.

All sects are sects.

What does this have to do with what I posted regarding orthodoxy?

 

[smaller]

How does this address my point?
What does this have to do with what I posted regarding orthodoxy?

What is orthodoxy to you?

You must have the wrong thread.

I stand corrected. There are 2 #1 Problem Threads. Will the real #1 please stand up?