The Redemption of the body-Rom8:23

[Sam21]

NO ONE has a spiritual or glorified body yet. The dead are buried, while their spirits are with God.

1 Corinthians 15:42-44; 49-55 NLT
42 It is the same way with the resurrection of the dead. Our earthly bodies are planted in the ground when we die, but they will be raised to live forever. 43 Our bodies are buried in brokenness, but they will be raised in glory. They are buried in weakness, but they will be raised in strength. 44 They are buried as natural human bodies, but they will be raised as spiritual bodies. For just as there are natural bodies, there are also spiritual bodies.

49 Just as we are now like the earthly man, we will someday be like the heavenly man. 50 What I am saying, dear brothers and sisters, is that our physical bodies cannot inherit the Kingdom of God. These dying bodies cannot inherit what will last forever. 51 But let me reveal to you a wonderful secret. We will not all die, but we will all be transformed! 52 It will happen in a moment, in the blink of an eye, when the last trumpet is blown. For when the trumpet sounds, those who have died will be raised to live forever. And we who are living will also be transformed. 53 For our dying bodies must be transformed into bodies that will never die; our mortal bodies must be transformed into immortal bodies.
54 Then, when our dying bodies have been transformed into bodies that will never die, this Scripture will be fulfilled:
“Death is swallowed up in victory.
55 O death, where is your victory?
O death, where is your sting?â€

I basicly agree with you except the Lord brought something to my attention recently, Paul was adamant that what is planted in the ground(flesh and blood) will NOT be resurrected but that a heavenly body will be resurrected. Paul made the point that a grain of corn(flesh and blood) is planted in the ground but that the corn seed does not come forth from the ground but a plant does(something different), so a physical body is planted in the ground but a spiritual body comes forth. So our flesh and blood just goes back to the dust and at the resurrection a spiritual body is raised.

 

[Lehigh3]

You are wise Sam21!

 

[Hitch]

I basicly agree with you except the Lord brought something to my attention recently, Paul was adamant that what is planted in the ground(flesh and blood) will NOT be resurrected but that a heavenly body will be resurrected. Paul made the point that a grain of corn(flesh and blood) is planted in the ground but that the corn seed does not come forth from the ground but a plant does(something different), so a physical body is planted in the ground but a spiritual body comes forth. So our flesh and blood just goes back to the dust and at the resurrection a spiritual body is raised.

I dont think that idea is outrageous but we have only the one example . We know the tomb was empty and I believe we will eventually,somehow, follow that pattern.

 

[Alabaster]

I basicly agree with you except the Lord brought something to my attention recently, Paul was adamant that what is planted in the ground(flesh and blood) will NOT be resurrected but that a heavenly body will be resurrected. Paul made the point that a grain of corn(flesh and blood) is planted in the ground but that the corn seed does not come forth from the ground but a plant does(something different), so a physical body is planted in the ground but a spiritual body comes forth. So our flesh and blood just goes back to the dust and at the resurrection a spiritual body is raised.

That's right. A seed is planted but does a seed come forth? No--it changes. So do we.

 

[Lehigh3]

That's right. A seed is planted but does a seed come forth? No--it changes. So do we.

How so? Paul stated that not all of them would "sleep" but all would be changed.

 

[Lehigh3]

Here it is. This is the passage where Paul speaks of our literal resurrection in heaven!
2Cor.4:16-2Cor.5:1-8, NKJV
Seeing the Invisible


16 Therefore we do not lose heart. Even though our outward man is perishing, yet the inward man is being renewed day by day. 17 For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, is working for us a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory, 18 while we do not look at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen. For the things which are seen are temporary, but the things which are not seen are eternal. 2 Corinthians 5

Assurance of the Resurrection

1 For we know that if our earthly house, this tent, is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed with our habitation which is from heaven, 3 if indeed, having been clothed, we shall not be found naked. 4 For we who are in this tent groan, being burdened, not because we want to be unclothed, but further clothed, that mortality may be swallowed up by life. 5 Now He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who also has given us the Spirit as a guarantee.
6 So we are always confident, knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord. 7 For we walk by faith, not by sight. 8 We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.

 

[Alabaster]

How so? Paul stated that not all of them would "sleep" but all would be changed.

Yes. All will be changed. The dead first, then the living right after.

Paul says as from Jesus Himself:

1 Thessalonians 4:15-18 NLT
15 We tell you this directly from the Lord: We who are still living when the Lord returns will not meet him ahead of those who have died. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven with a commanding shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet call of God. First, the Christians who have died will rise from their graves. 17 Then, together with them, we who are still alive and remain on the earth will be caught up in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. Then we will be with the Lord forever. 18 So encourage each other with these words.


Any questions?

 

[warhorse]

Here it is. This is the passage where Paul speaks of our literal resurrection in heaven!
2Cor.4:16-2Cor.5:1-8, NKJV
Seeing the Invisible


16 Therefore we do not lose heart. Even though our outward man is perishing, yet the inward man is being renewed day by day. 17 For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, is working for us a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory, 18 while we do not look at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen. For the things which are seen are temporary, but the things which are not seen are eternal. 2 Corinthians 5

Assurance of the Resurrection

1 For we know that if our earthly house, this tent, is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed with our habitation which is from heaven, 3 if indeed, having been clothed, we shall not be found naked. 4 For we who are in this tent groan, being burdened, not because we want to be unclothed, but further clothed, that mortality may be swallowed up by life. 5 Now He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who also has given us the Spirit as a guarantee.
6 So we are always confident, knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord. 7 For we walk by faith, not by sight. 8 We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.

Well it speaks of our spiritual assent after death. And affirms the scripture we have already shone of a bodily resurection.

 

[sdktlk]

Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom, but flesh and bone can. For we hear the Lord Jesus say, "Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have." (Luk 24:39)

We also understand that there were those who were resurrected at the time of Jesus' resurrection. "And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, and came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many." (Mat 27:52-53)

What were the appearance of these resurrected ones? “[FONT=Georgia, serif]...And entering into the sepulchre, they saw a [/FONT]young man sitting on the right side, clothed in a long white garment; and they were frighted...†(Mar 16:5) The term used here, young man is, in the Greek, neaniskos, which means a youth under forty; no angel (Greek, angelos) here. And we see that the young man is clothed in a long white garment. “...And while they (the disciples) looked steadfastly toward heaven as He (Jesus) went up, behold, two men (Greek, aner, not angels, angelos) stood by them in white apparel...†(Acts 1:10) You can also [FONT=Georgia, serif]see two men ([/FONT]aner) in Luke 24:4.

By these references we can determine that the appearance of the saints after being resurrected is still human in form: "flesh and bone."

 

[Lehigh3]

Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom, but flesh and bone can. For we hear the Lord Jesus say, "Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have." (Luk 24:39)

We also understand that there were those who were resurrected at the time of Jesus' resurrection. "And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, and came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many." (Mat 27:52-53)

What were the appearance of these resurrected ones? “[FONT=Georgia, serif]...And entering into the sepulchre, they saw a [/FONT]young man sitting on the right side, clothed in a long white garment; and they were frighted...†(Mar 16:5) The term used here, young man is, in the Greek, neaniskos, which means a youth under forty; no angel (Greek, angelos) here. And we see that the young man is clothed in a long white garment. “...And while they (the disciples) looked steadfastly toward heaven as He (Jesus) went up, behold, two men (Greek, aner, not angels, angelos) stood by them in white apparel...†(Acts 1:10) You can also [FONT=Georgia, serif]see two men ([/FONT]aner) in Luke 24:4.

By these references we can determine that the appearance of the saints after being resurrected is still human in form: "flesh and bone."

Jesus' body was the EXCEPTION. His "flesh" did not see decay. Yet do you think He is in heaven in that form? With the holes still in his hands? No. John saw Him in at least 3 different forms. After the resurrection, the transfiguration & in Revelation.
Those who arose from their graves literally after Jesus' resurrection- they went on to live & die again. They are mentioned for emphasis about Jesus' resurrection, I believe.

If we have a spiritual body like an angel- we will have substance & not be just an ethereal being.

If we eat & drink in heaven, it will be limited & won't be our greatest joy.

That's my pov from Biblical, logical & spiritual deducing.

When we close our eyes & physically die- we awake in the Lord's heaven- clothed & praising Him for his faithfulness. We never spiritually die- but as a nurse I attest that the body returns to dust- & we take our 1st breath in heaven in our new & incorruptible bodies.

All the beneficial animals (all creation) will be there too!

We just don't or can't grasp it this side of eternity.

 

[sdktlk]

Jesus' body was the EXCEPTION. His "flesh" did not see decay. Yet do you think He is in heaven in that form? With the holes still in his hands? No. John saw Him in at least 3 different forms. After the resurrection, the transfiguration & in Revelation.
Those who arose from their graves literally after Jesus' resurrection- they went on to live & die again. They are mentioned for emphasis about Jesus' resurrection, I believe.

If we have a spiritual body like an angel- we will have substance & not be just an ethereal being.

If we eat & drink in heaven, it will be limited & won't be our greatest joy.

That's my pov from Biblical, logical & spiritual deducing.

When we close our eyes & physically die- we awake in the Lord's heaven- clothed & praising Him for his faithfulness. We never spiritually die- but as a nurse I attest that the body returns to dust- & we take our 1st breath in heaven in our new & incorruptible bodies.

All the beneficial animals (all creation) will be there too!

We just don't or can't grasp it this side of eternity.

I'm not quite clear with the "three" views of Jesus. But we see, " And when he (Jesus) had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven." (Acts 1:9-11)

It also says in John 19:37 "They shall look upon Him whom they pierced." And, once more, "Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen." (Rev 1:7)

It will be this same Jesus that will be seen on that day.

 

[Lehigh3]

I'm not quite clear with the "three" views of Jesus. But we see, " And when he (Jesus) had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven." (Acts 1:9-11)

It also says in John 19:37 "They shall look upon Him whom they pierced." And, once more, "Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen." (Rev 1:7)

It will be this same Jesus that will be seen on that day.

Yes sdktlk,
I appreciate your inquiry. Today & the next week are going t be very busy for me (husband is relocating to find work) so I must rush a bit through this.

When the angels said "this same Jesus" I do not think the emphasis of the whole passage is on the word "same. " More on the "like manner" (cloud coming reference) Jesus was actually a popular Hebrew name at the time, like Lazarus(which is Greek- but the Hebrew was Elezar) Even one of the Jewish zealots in Israel that Josephus wrote about had the name "Jesus."

As far as in at least 3 different forms- Jesus appeared to John in the Transformation on the mount as 1 form. Of course Jesus' human form- His resurrection form, & in Revelation 1 Jesus was from heaven in another form to John that "fell at His feet as dead."
But John, who Jesus said would live at least until His return says in 1Jn 3:2-3 NKJV, 2 Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is. 3 And everyone who has this hope in Him purifies himself, just as He is pure.
Now, if John didn't know what the change in the living or the dead would look like- we today can only deduce that John wasn't saying for sure that that revelation would be Jesus in the flesh.

And all eyes will see Him, even those who pierced Him. "even" is a repetition it is the one, "those who pierced Him."
"every eye shall see Him" doesn't refer to physical eyes of man , but to the eyes of understanding: Caiaphas & the whole nation of the Jews would see & perceive that the nation's destruction was the Revelation of Christ in glory, the sign that the Son of man was seated at the right hand of power in heaven (Mt.24:30) The "tribes of the land or earth" refer to the tribes of Israel. The same phrase is in Mt. gospel regarding the fall of the city & temple: "And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory (Mt.24:30) And "Verily I say unto you, this generation shall not pass till all these things be fulfilled." (Mt.24:34)

The unbelieving Jews aided & abetted Rome to crucify Christ. God divinely decreed the pagan Rome (as with Babylon) against the Jews & "their holy city"
But in the great tribulation, God would say "It is done." God ended His theocratic relationship with the Jews & gave the kingdom to a nation that would bear fruits. (Christians & gentiles)

 

[Alabaster]

Yes sdktlk,

But John, who Jesus said would live at least until His return says in 1Jn 3:2-3 NKJV, 2 Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is. 3 And everyone who has this hope in Him purifies himself, just as He is pure.
Now, if John didn't know what the change in the living or the dead would look like- we today can only deduce that John wasn't saying for sure that that revelation would be Jesus in the flesh.

Please explain how the belief has persisted that John would see the return of Jesus Christ?

 

[Lehigh3]

Please explain how the belief has persisted that John would see the return of Jesus Christ?

No, don't misunderstand, the belief was in error that John would not die.

Read John 21:20-23.

Many understand what Jesus told Peter & how Peter would agape Him & glorify the Lord in the previous verses of John 21. They know how Peter would die by Jesus' words- & so that is what happened to Peter. He chose to be crucified upside down bc he said he wasn't worthy to imitate the Lord's crucifixion.....& so that was the reality & history of Peter's death.
In the next verses we clearly read how John would live till the second coming.
John 21:20-23 NKJV,
20 Then Peter, turning around, saw the disciple whom Jesus loved following, who also had leaned on His breast at the supper, and said, “Lord, who is the one who betrays You?†21 Peter, seeing him, said to Jesus, “But Lord, what about this man?â€
22 Jesus said to him, “If I will that he remain till I come, what is that to you? You follow Me.â€
23 Then this saying went out among the brethren that this disciple would not die. Yet Jesus did not say to him that he would not die, but, “If I will that he remain till I come, what is that to you?â€

It's so simple & clear, it amazes me how anyone could misunderstand it!

 

[sdktlk]

Yes sdktlk,
I appreciate your inquiry. Today & the next week are going t be very busy for me (husband is relocating to find work) so I must rush a bit through this.

When the angels said "this same Jesus" I do not think the emphasis of the whole passage is on the word "same. " More on the "like manner" (cloud coming reference) Jesus was actually a popular Hebrew name at the time, like Lazarus(which is Greek- but the Hebrew was Elezar) Even one of the Jewish zealots in Israel that Josephus wrote about had the name "Jesus."

As far as in at least 3 different forms- Jesus appeared to John in the Transformation on the mount as 1 form. Of course Jesus' human form- His resurrection form, & in Revelation 1 Jesus was from heaven in another form to John that "fell at His feet as dead."
But John, who Jesus said would live at least until His return says in 1Jn 3:2-3 NKJV, 2 Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is. 3 And everyone who has this hope in Him purifies himself, just as He is pure.
Now, if John didn't know what the change in the living or the dead would look like- we today can only deduce that John wasn't saying for sure that that revelation would be Jesus in the flesh.

And all eyes will see Him, even those who pierced Him. "even" is a repetition it is the one, "those who pierced Him."
"every eye shall see Him" doesn't refer to physical eyes of man , but to the eyes of understanding: Caiaphas & the whole nation of the Jews would see & perceive that the nation's destruction was the Revelation of Christ in glory, the sign that the Son of man was seated at the right hand of power in heaven (Mt.24:30) The "tribes of the land or earth" refer to the tribes of Israel. The same phrase is in Mt. gospel regarding the fall of the city & temple: "And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory (Mt.24:30) And "Verily I say unto you, this generation shall not pass till all these things be fulfilled." (Mt.24:34)

The unbelieving Jews aided & abetted Rome to crucify Christ. God divinely decreed the pagan Rome (as with Babylon) against the Jews & "their holy city"
But in the great tribulation, God would say "It is done." God ended His theocratic relationship with the Jews & gave the kingdom to a nation that would bear fruits. (Christians & gentiles)

There is much that could be said, but only one small thing would I point out. "Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen." (Rev 1:7) The word "eye" points specifically to the eye as in eyeball, that which we see with. And "see," in the Greek, means "to gaze (that is, with wide open eyes, as at something remarkable.") There is no inference as to this being a mental understanding.

As a word of caution to us all, we must be careful when we handle the Word of God.

 

[Lehigh3]

There is much that could be said, but only one small thing would I point out. "Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen." (Rev 1:7) The word "eye" points specifically to the eye as in eyeball, that which we see with. And "see," in the Greek, means "to gaze (that is, with wide open eyes, as at something remarkable.") There is no inference as to this being a mental understanding.

As a word of caution to us all, we must be careful when we handle the Word of God.

Well, the Jews after the flesh were suppose to "perceive" the Son of God at the right hand of power over the Jerusalem skies during the great tribulation.

Josephus & Tacitus (historians) record cosmic events & armies of angels over Judea. The nature of His coming was missed by those who only read about it (in a literal sense) or were spoonfed hearsay from those having an ecclesiastical agenda.

The Bible & history refute the futuristic & unfulfilled prophecies Jesus said was to be fulfilled in that generation He predicted to.

 

[Alabaster]

Well, the Jews after the flesh were suppose to "perceive" the Son of God at the right hand of power over the Jerusalem skies during the great tribulation.

They didn't, though, because it didn't happen. When it does, they will.

Josephus & Tacitus (historians) record cosmic events & armies of angels over Judea. The nature of His coming was missed by those who only read about it (in a literal sense) or were spoonfed hearsay from those having an ecclesiastical agenda.

So you take an early historian's word over the word of God?

The Bible & history refute the futuristic & unfulfilled prophecies Jesus said was to be fulfilled in that generation He predicted to.

But He didn't prophesy just about that particular generation.

 

[Lehigh3]

They didn't, though, because it didn't happen. When it does, they will.

Yup, it's over. And we all got left below!

So you take an early historian's word over the word of God?

I'll take the Bible & history over someone's spoon-fed fiction anyday!

But He didn't prophesy just about that particular generation.

No buts about it. He did.
You are twisting scriptures to fit your imagination. Time to stop twisting God's word. He will not be mocked.

 

[reba]

Hold off the personal insults.

 

[Elijah674]

No, don't misunderstand, the belief was in error that John would not die.

Read John 21:20-23.

Many understand what Jesus told Peter & how Peter would agape Him & glorify the Lord in the previous verses of John 21. They know how Peter would die by Jesus' words- & so that is what happened to Peter. He chose to be crucified upside down bc he said he wasn't worthy to imitate the Lord's crucifixion.....& so that was the reality & history of Peter's death.
In the next verses we clearly read how John would live till the second coming.
John 21:20-23 NKJV,
20 Then Peter, turning around, saw the disciple whom Jesus loved following, who also had leaned on His breast at the supper, and said, “Lord, who is the one who betrays You?†21 Peter, seeing him, said to Jesus, “But Lord, what about this man?â€
22 Jesus said to him, “If I will that he remain till I come, what is that to you? You follow Me.â€
23 Then this saying went out among the brethren that this disciple would not die. Yet Jesus did not say to him that he would not die, but, “If I will that he remain till I come, what is that to you?â€

It's so simple & clear, it amazes me how anyone could misunderstand it!

Truely is amazing, huh?;)