The Redemption of the body-Rom8:23

[Alabaster]

Yup, it's over. And we all got left below!

Sorry you think that, but God's promises are still current, and He tells His church to look for the signs of the coming of the Bridegroom. They are all around us. No believer will be left behind.

I'll take the Bible & history over someone's spoon-fed fiction anyday! No buts about it. He did.

There is no history that reveals the second coming of Jesus Christ. Jesus wouldn't let 2000 years of generations of His children live without knowing it.

You are twisting scriptures to fit your imagination. Time to stop twisting God's word. He will not be mocked.

Actually, I am not. Preterists are following someone's misinterpretation, because no one can come up with it on one's own---and for what reason, there is no telling.

 

[Lehigh3]

Sorry you think that, but God's promises are still current, and He tells His church to look for the signs of the coming of the Bridegroom. They are all around us. No believer will be left behind.




There is no history that reveals the second coming of Jesus Christ. Jesus wouldn't let 2000 years of generations of His children live without knowing it.




Actually, I am not. Preterists are following someone's misinterpretation, because no one can come up with it on one's own---and for what reason, there is no telling.

No you're wrong. All will die.

 

[Lehigh3]

Truely is amazing, huh?;)

John 21:22,
22 Jesus said to him, “If I will that he remain till I come, what is that to you? You follow Me.â€

And a little funny to Preterist scholars. Can anyone say "LITERAL!"

 

[Alabaster]

No you're wrong. All will die.

Who will die? Unbelievers will die horribly during the ensuing Tribulation when the Church is removed.

The spotless Bride lives and is taken to the wedding by the Bridegroom---she is spared Tribulation.

 

[Sam21]

Who will die? Unbelievers will die horribly during the ensuing Tribulation when the Church is removed.

The spotless Bride lives and is taken to the wedding by the Bridegroom---she is spared Tribulation.

Jesus said that the church would go through the tribulation and then be raptured. There is a belief in our time that Jesus described a return for the nation of Israel rather than the church, however Jesus never said anything about returning for national Israel but was emphatic that He was returning for the apostles who constituted the beginning of the church.

 

[Alabaster]

Jesus said that the church would go through the tribulation and then be raptured.

No He didn't. If He did, we would believe that.

There is a belief in our time that Jesus described a return for the nation of Israel rather than the church, however Jesus never said anything about returning for national Israel but was emphatic that He was returning for the apostles who constituted the beginning of the church.

Jesus is coming for His Bride. God is going to then deal with the Jew, whom He still has unfinished business with---seven years, as a matter of fact. He still wants them to receive the Messiah. At the end of the seven years, they will see Him come with the saints in all His glory.

 

[warhorse]

No He didn't. If He did, we would believe that.




Jesus is coming for His Bride. God is going to then deal with the Jew, whom He still has unfinished business with---seven years, as a matter of fact. He still wants them to receive the Messiah. At the end of the seven years, they will see Him come with the saints in all His glory.

Sorry al, but that is what Jesus said. Peaple tend to believe what they want, you have seen that right here in the forums. God said what his wrath is in Rev with the vials, they do not resemble Jesus description of tribulation. Compare Mathew 24, Mark 13, and luke 21 and you will find that Jesus is generally describing the world today.
Paul said that the rapture of 1 thess 4 was on the DOTL in 1 thess 5 v 1-3. And 1 cor 15 the (death is swallowed up in victory) statement refers back to isaiah 25 another account of the Day of the lord. There is no clearly defined scripture to support pre-tribe, i read the entire bible once just looking for pre-tribe support. I was pre-tribe myself untill i determined in my heart to seek out the truth no matter what it was. Dont take my word for it, search it out for yourself...

 

[Sam21]

One of the best kept secrets of modern christianity is that the bible does not contain a pre-trib rapture of the church. Your average christian(possibly A) accept that pre-trib is in the bible because most all leadership and bible teachers teach that pre-trib is scriptural, for the average christian to accept pre-trib is understandable because they are trusting in leadership and that would seem to be the correct thing to do. On the other hand,leadership has sold out in this area because most have much knowledge of the bible and KNOW that pre-trib is not actually in the bible,they teach pre-trib while knowing that it is false in order to keep their positions and be part of leadership. It is hard for most christians to accept that the Pastor they admire has made a choice to reject the truth of the word of God about the rapture in order to "fit in", but they have. I keep waiting for one of the big shots to demonstrate integrity and point out that pre-trib is false,but none seem to appear. I think Pat Robertson is the only one who has pointed out that Christ return is post-trib and he is rather timid about it. The popularity of pre-trib is a clear demonstration of the deceived state of the church today.

 

[Alabaster]

Pre-trib believers also believe that Jesus comes after the Tribulation, so what are you talking about?

 

[Alabaster]

Dont take my word for it, search it out for yourself...

Been there, done that. The Church doesn't undergo the Great Tribulation. We see it beginning, however.

Nowhere in Revelation is the Church mentioned in all the relating of John's vision of destruction and God's judgments. We read of 'the earth's inhabitants', or 'those who live on the earth', but NEVER the people of God. In fact, we read that the 'inhabitants of the earth' refuse God, and reject repentance!

The Church is just not going to undergo that kind of trial.

 

[Sam21]

Been there, done that. The Church doesn't undergo the Great Tribulation. We see it beginning, however.

Nowhere in Revelation is the Church mentioned in all the relating of John's vision of destruction and God's judgments. We read of 'the earth's inhabitants', or 'those who live on the earth', but NEVER the people of God. In fact, we read that the 'inhabitants of the earth' refuse God, and reject repentance!

The Church is just not going to undergo that kind of trial.

The absence of the WORD CHURCH after Rev 4 means nothing since a description of the church is given in Rev 7:9-14 AND they had to go through the great tribulation, the same words Jesus used that the apostles(who represent the church)would go through. The danger in the false pre-trib teaching is that millions of people could turn away from faith in Christ in dispair when the antichrist and the tribulation occur and Christ has not returned(as they were told He must). I see this as an invention of satan that will set christians up for a big fall when Christ does not appear as believed, they will probably lose faith in a Christ that did not keep His word(or so it will appear).

 

[Alabaster]

The absence of the WORD CHURCH after Rev 4 means nothing since a description of the church is given in Rev 7:9-14 AND they had to go through the great tribulation, the same words Jesus used that the apostles(who represent the church)would go through. The danger in the false pre-trib teaching is that millions of people could turn away from faith in Christ in dispair when the antichrist and the tribulation occur and Christ has not returned(as they were told He must). I see this as an invention of satan that will set christians up for a big fall when Christ does not appear as believed, they will probably lose faith in a Christ that did not keep His word(or so it will appear).

That reference is about those who come to Christ after the Church is gone.


There is no DANGER in any eschatological belief: post, pre or mid trib! It is only those who are vehemently against the accepted pre-trib belief who cry, "Heresy!" or "False doctrine!" or 'Danger!" I don't hear anyone who is pre-trib pointing judgmental fingers at anyone who holds another view.

All views use the scriptures to point out their belief, and nothing there is salvific. Nothing is Satanic, either, for all who know Jesus will see the facts when they come. No one is lost because of their eschatology, and no one will fall either, if they know Jesus truly, and are filled with the Holy Spirit.

 

[Lehigh3]

I like to get back to the topic & relevant passage:
Romans 8:18-23 NKJV,
From Suffering to Glory

18 For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. 19 For the earnest expectation of the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope; 21 because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now. 23 Not only that, but we also who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body.
It is raised a spiritual body. The corporate "body" of the church. Jew & Gentile in Christ. True Israel. Their "salvation was nigh at hand." This is the "change" for those on earth at Christ's coming. The 1st resurrection were "priests of God" & reigned on earth.(Rev.5)
We cannot mistake the exulting anticipation expressed by St.Paul of the coming day of deliverance from the sufferings & miseries of the present- a deliverance which was at hand, & not far off. There was a day of redemption coming which would bring freedom & glory to the sons of God- in the benefits of which the whole creation would participate.
The 1st point that demands attention is the distinct indication of the nearness of this coming glory. This is entirely lost sight of in modern authorized versions even & similarly ignored by almost all commentators.
The Greek & proper frorce of the language says "the glory which is about to be revealed, which soon shall be revealed."

The 'coming glory' is the counterpart or antithesis of the 'coming wrath' ~ different aspects of the same great event: for the Parousia, which was the revelation of glory to the sons of God, was the revelation of the day of wrath to His enemies (Romans 2:5,7)

The apostle does not so mock them with hope deferred- it would be a cold comfort for men writhing under the anguish of their sufferings- to tell them of a period of future age which would bring them compensation for their present distress.
The whole creation is moral & thoughtful creation (man) awaiting the manifestation of "the sons of God."
And these apostles & disciples of Christ were indeed who the whole creation was waiting for.
To Paul, in his view, a great event was about to take place- the Lord was about to come, according to His promise, to exercise His kingly power, to give recompense & salvation to His ppl, & to tread His enemies under His feet.

But the Parousia was to bring more than this. It marked a great epoch in the divine government of man. It terminated the period of exclusive privilege of Israel. It dissolved the covenant-bond between Jehovah & the Jewish ppl- & made way for a better covenant which embraced all mankind.

 

[Alabaster]

The whole creation is moral & thoughtful creation (man) awaiting the manifestation of "the sons of God."
And these apostles & disciples of Christ were indeed who the whole creation was waiting for.
To Paul, in his view, a great event was about to take place- the Lord was about to come, according to His promise, to exercise His kingly power, to give recompense & salvation to His ppl, & to tread His enemies under His feet.

The entire creation, and NOT only man is groaning in anticipation of the coming of Christ and for the day we, not just the apostles of old, but we the entire Church are revealed as the literal sons and daughters of the Most High God.

It has yet to happen.

But the Parousia was to bring more than this. It marked a great epoch in the divine government of man. It terminated the period of exclusive privilege of Israel. It dissolved the covenant-bond between Jehovah & the Jewish ppl- & made way for a better covenant which embraced all mankind.

It WILL be a culmination of the work of Jesus Christ in the world, having built His Church, He will come for her.

There has been no 'divine government of man'.

 

[Lehigh3]

The entire creation, and NOT only man is groaning in anticipation of the coming of Christ and for the day we, not just the apostles of old, but we the entire Church are revealed as the literal sons and daughters of the Most High God.

It has yet to happen.

It WILL be a culmination of the work of Jesus Christ in the world, having built His Church, He will come for her.

There has been no 'divine government of man'.

When will you learn! Wrong again! St. Paul did not give them false hope. YOU are not part of the first resurrection & will never be.

Jesus promised THEM- not you - and told THEM -not you- to "occupy until I come."

Got it? Get it ? Good!

 

[Alabaster]

When will you learn! Wrong again! St. Paul did not give them false hope. YOU are not part of the first resurrection & will never be.

Jesus promised THEM- not you - and told THEM -not you- to "occupy until I come."

Got it? Get it ? Good!

Yes, Paul never gave anyone false hope. Yes, I will be included in the first resurrection, and if you know Jesus as your Saviour, you will be also, whether you believe it or not.

Jesus' promises are to us. We are occupying until He comes. Indeed, I got it years ago.

Preterism is just another teaching that is filled with doctrinal error and should not be taken seriously. It takes our eyes off of our "blessed hope" - the glorious return of Yeshua who was YHWH in the Flesh who will take believers out of our world of pain and sorrow.

 

[Lehigh3]

Yes, Paul never gave anyone false hope. Yes, I will be included in the first resurrection, and if you know Jesus as your Saviour, you will be also, whether you believe it or not.

Jesus' promises are to us. We are occupying until He comes. Indeed, I got it years ago.

Preterism is just another teaching that is filled with doctrinal error and should not be taken seriously. It takes our eyes off of our "blessed hope" - the glorious return of Yeshua who was YHWH in the Flesh who will take believers out of our world of pain and sorrow.

No you misinterpret Paul's writings. The "body" is raised spiritual. That referred to the church & its members corporately.
Yes, all creation (beneficial animals, etc) will be included in heaven. The glory of one flesh & their glory is not the same as man's obviously bc they are another species.
The Christians did the "anticipation" for them- they can't reason & are not thinkers & moral subjects like we are. The animals were collateral damage in the beginning anyway.

But the "revealing of the sons of God" is not still pending. What do you think the apostles stood for?!
You fail to honor them Or even Jesus' promises to them. In you pov, St. Paul is still a beheaded disembodied spirit waiting for some some day.

That is totally disrespectful. And you even use his own words! Shameful imho.

 

[stovebolts]

Let's all be mindful of the TOS...

5 - Respect each others' opinions. Address issues, not persons or personalities.

6 - No Bashing of other members. Give other members the respect you would want them to give yourself.

To put it simply, lets lay of the "YOU" statements and spend more time conversing over the scriptures themselves.