The religion of Atheism.

[The Bible Thumper]

I contend that the belief and faith in the non-existence of G-d constitutes religious thinking. Since no evidence can be brought to bear on the non-existence of G-d, we have to conclude that Atheism (the letter 'A' capitalized out of respect for the Atheist's religion) is religious thought, and hence a religion in of itself.
There are very active websites built around this religious thinking (richarddawkins forum; the internet infidels, or IIDB, etc.). There are fundraisers to advance Atheist doctrine. There are even Atheist activists who protest publicly against other religious activities in the public sphere (I'm guessing Atheists do this because other religions represent a threat to their religion, and that Atheists fear they may lose converts if Christians or Jews are around to offer a word of prayer).

Is there an Atheist on this message board who has an alternate view on the matter? How is it possible to view faith in the non-existence of G-d as non-religious thinking? I thought about this at length and have not come to a conclusion that elucidates or even suggests Atheist thinking as non-religious. Please, if you do contribute to this thread, all I ask is you don't use your favorite phrase, "ad hominem." You guys use the phrase so often, and in such inappropriate context, I'm beginning to wonder if you even order your pizzas from Pizza Hut, "light on the ad hominem, please..."

Thanks in advance, guys!

 

[Gabe]

Atheism is not a belief, its an un-belief. I do not believe in aliens, I cannot prove this. Does that constitute a new religion? Am I the Anti-scientologist? No! As for what some of these militant Atheists get up to: some of what they say and do are silly and hypocritical. They resent religion being pushed on them so they should set an example and not ridicule and push their beliefs on others but that does not give anyone the right to stereotype or box all Atheists into one group.

 

[The Bible Thumper]

I'm thinking that if all Atheists share the same faith (faith that there is no G-d), then I would be logically consistent to stereotype them into a single group.
The Atheist would be logically consistent and correct to stereotype all Christians into a group that claims Jesus is their Savior. I can't see how I'm being any different.

As for aliens, you do believe in them, if you have an open mind. We live in a Universe that holds 200 billion galaxies. In each galaxy, there are an average of 100 billion stars. That means there are 200 billion x 100 billion stars in the known Universe. You can't tell me that with so many stars (and hence so many solar systems with earth-like planets) that there aren't at least a few of them that do not have intelligent life on them! So, indeed, you do believe in aliens, just not in alien contact of UFO's.

Belief in aliens therefore is different than belief in almighty G-d. The former cannot be proven, but are assumed to exist by virtue of deductive reasoning, but the latter cannot be proven, even explicitly: the Bible tells us we must go by faith and faith alone; G-d deliberately witholding evidence of his existence from us.

Thus, believing in G-d is an irrational endeavor (I admit it--I'm a theist, and hence irrational in my thinking!), because it takes faith--not evidence--to believe in Him. But the same is true for the religion of Atheism: it takes faith to believe in His non-existence. Thus, the Atheist is being just as irrational as we are when he denounces the existence of the Almighty.

 

[Gabe]

Are you seriously telling me that you know what I believe better than I do? I couldn't care less one way or the other regarding the existence of aliens and I think you will find that most Atheists feel the same way in regards to God, this is hardly what I or anyone would call religious faith. Billions of people have faith that lepricorns do not exist but that doesn't make it a religion. If you're so irrational why the deductive reasoning? Unlike yourself, most Christians do not find the belief in God 'irrational' at all, there may not be any hard evidence but we look around us and see the work of God everywhere.

It is not faith that leads Atheists to disbelieve in a god, it is the lack of scientific evidence!

 

[VaultZero4Me]

As for aliens, you do believe in them, if you have an open mind. We live in a Universe that holds 200 billion galaxies. In each galaxy, there are an average of 100 billion stars. That means there are 200 billion x 100 billion stars in the known Universe. You can't tell me that with so many stars (and hence so many solar systems with earth-like planets) that there aren't at least a few of them that do not have intelligent life on them! So, indeed, you do believe in aliens, just not in alien contact of UFO's.

I am trying to follow what you mean here. Typically, this is used to say that with so many chances for life to spring up, it has had to occur somewhere else in the universe. But, that argument would be for life arising by chance, something that I would not think you would be for as a Christian.

For argument sake, that line of reasoning runs into a wall because we do not know the parameters for life arising on it’s own, nor are we even sure if there are other planets with the conditions of earth.

Or, are you saying that you do not believe that the universe can be this big without more life in it?

Belief in aliens therefore is different than belief in almighty G-d. The former cannot be proven, but are assumed to exist by virtue of deductive reasoning, but the latter cannot be proven, even explicitly: the Bible tells us we must go by faith and faith alone; G-d deliberately witholding evidence of his existence from us.

Actually aliens can be proven. If we find alien life, then that would pretty much answer that question.

Assuming that aliens exist by deductive reasoning would be very wrong. You have no basis on which to deduce that life exists outside our on biosphere. Saying that the universe is huge, therefore there must be other life, is poor logic.

 

[The Bible Thumper]

Are you seriously telling me that you know what i believe better than i do? I couldnt care less one way or the other regarding the existence of aliens and i think you will find that most Atheists feel the same way in regards to God, this is hardly what i or anyone would call religious faith. Billions of people have faith that lepricorns do not exist but that doesnt make it a religion. If you're so irrational why the deductive reasoning? Unlike yourself, most Christians do not find the belief in God 'irrational' at all, there may not be any hard evidence but we look around us and see the work of God everywhere.

It is not faith that leads Atheists to disbelieve in a god, it is the lack of scientific evidence!

Leprechauns and G-d can't be compared. How come? Because Creator G-d created the known Universe and Leprechauns didn't, that's why.
To elaborate, it's a well-known and tacit fact that we exist, and that the Universe exists. Since this is so, this existence (called physical reality) had to have been made somehow. But how? We contend that it was made by Creator G-d.
Belief in leprechauns is different, because leprechauns have not been known to create the Universe.

We as Abrahamaic believers are justified for believing in creator G-d, because G-d serves to explain the creation and existence of the Universe. The Leprechaunite (religion that worships leprechauns) has no such justification.
This is also important, because the existence of the Universe--which must have had a Creator--stands as our scientific evidence for the existence of G-d.

The ball then is now in the Atheist's court to justify his faith in his non-belief in G-d.

 

[The Bible Thumper]

As for aliens, you do believe in them, if you have an open mind. We live in a Universe that holds 200 billion galaxies. In each galaxy, there are an average of 100 billion stars. That means there are 200 billion x 100 billion stars in the known Universe. You can't tell me that with so many stars (and hence so many solar systems with earth-like planets) that there aren't at least a few of them that do not have intelligent life on them! So, indeed, you do believe in aliens, just not in alien contact of UFO's.

I am trying to follow what you mean here. Typically, this is used to say that with so many chances for life to spring up, it has had to occur somewhere else in the universe. But, that argument would be for life arising by chance, something that I would not think you would be for as a Christian. For argument sake, that line of reasoning runs into a wall because we do not know the parameters for life arising on it’s own, nor are we even sure if there are other planets with the conditions of earth.

I think the verdict among the scientific community is unanimous: life needs oxygen and water to arise on its own. While Dr. Hawking isn't an evolutionary biologist, he was quoted as saying that the Universe should be rich in life due to the preponderance of solar systems/planets/the ease with which water is created. Heck, scientists from NASA are finding evidence of agua on Mars, and because of that, have strong and justified suspicion life once existed there. By extension, if life probably existed on Mars, and definitely exists on Earth, and since Earth is one planet out of trillions and trillions of planets in the known Universe, it stands to reason the possibility of our solar system as the only solar system capable of supporting life would be 0.000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001%

Or, are you saying that you do not believe that the universe can be this big without more life in it?

Yep!

Actually aliens can be proven. If we find alien life, then that would pretty much answer that question.

Agreed.

Assuming that aliens exist by deductive reasoning would be very wrong. You have no basis on which to deduce that life exists outside our on biosphere. Saying that the universe is huge, therefore there must be other life, is poor logic.

So suppose there's a tide pool. In the tide pool there exists 150 species of life. Suppose further that one species discovers his tide pool resides in a huge (i mean huge) watery planet. He makes the correct belief that there must have been a Creator G-d that created not just his little tide pool, but the entire planet. But, he also makes by a deductive process the assumption that there exists lots and lots of life outside his own tide pool, even tho he has never actually studied or saw life outside his li'l tide pool; he just knows that, since there's lots of water outside it, and incoming data is already showing that there are lots and lots of tide pools like his own, that there has to be life out there. Lots of life. Big life. He may propose the absurd hypothesis that there are huge swimmers that have jagged teeth. Or even larger swimmers that sing notes and chords. Or even more preposterous ideas, like swimmers that breathe the oxygenated air, above.
But he has this annoying poster he's talking to on a watery internet connection who is saying his hypotheses are ridiculous and absurd and logically "wrong."

 

[destiny]

Some atheists aren't religious about their belief that there is no God, but some definitely are.

They fellowship, form groups, forums, etc. around their own set of atheistic beliefs. A specific fundamental set of beliefs qualifies a religion, and a lot of atheists definitely qualify.

 

[Paidion]

Modern atheists do not differentiate between their position and that of agnosticism. They claim no to disbelieve in God, but simply to not believe in Him.

There is no way to gain evidence that something does not exist. For example, you probably do not believe in the existence of the god Jupiter. But what possible evidence could you possibly set forth to prove that Jupiter does not exist?

It appears impossible to prove in the non-existence of any particular thing. So the modern atheist believes the ball is in the Theist's court to prove that the Creator God in which he believes, does, in fact, exist.

Atheism is not a religion. Atheists do not "accept by faith" the proposition that God does not exist. They simply, for lack of evidence, do not believe that He does, in fact, exist.

 

[The Bible Thumper]

Some atheists aren't religious about their belief that there is no God, but some definitely are.

They fellowship, form groups, forums, etc. around their own set of atheistic beliefs. A specific fundamental set of beliefs qualifies a religion, and a lot of atheists definitely qualify.

This is true. And I will further contend that the Atheist who isn't so militant isn't a real, honest-to-G-d non-believer, but a mere skeptic (agnostic).

 

[The Bible Thumper]

Modern atheists do not differentiate between their position and that of agnosticism. They claim no to disbelieve in God, but simply to not believe in Him.

There is no way to gain evidence that something does not exist. For example, you probably do not believe in the existence of the god Jupiter. But what possible evidence could you possibly set forth to prove that Jupiter does not exist?

It appears impossible to prove in the non-existence of any particular thing. So the modern atheist believes the ball is in the Theist's court to prove that the Creator God in which he believes, does, in fact, exist.

Atheism is not a religion. Atheists do not "accept by faith" the proposition that God does not exist. They simply, for lack of evidence, do not believe that He does, in fact, exist.

Your stance can only be true if your first posit is true. But a quick tour over at richarddawkins forum will radically and quickly change your mind on the subject.

If someone shouts, "I'm an Atheist." What he's saying is, "I have faith that there is no G-d." In other words, he's saying he doesn't believe, and is Atheist.
If someone shouts, "I disbelieve in G-d." What he is saying is, "I don't have faith that there is a G-d." In other words, he not saying he doesn't believe, but that he doesn't not believe. Such a soul is agnostic.

 

[VaultZero4Me]

As for aliens, you do believe in them, if you have an open mind. We live in a Universe that holds 200 billion galaxies. In each galaxy, there are an average of 100 billion stars. That means there are 200 billion x 100 billion stars in the known Universe. You can't tell me that with so many stars (and hence so many solar systems with earth-like planets) that there aren't at least a few of them that do not have intelligent life on them! So, indeed, you do believe in aliens, just not in alien contact of UFO's.

I am trying to follow what you mean here. Typically, this is used to say that with so many chances for life to spring up, it has had to occur somewhere else in the universe. But, that argument would be for life arising by chance, something that I would not think you would be for as a Christian. For argument sake, that line of reasoning runs into a wall because we do not know the parameters for life arising on it’s own, nor are we even sure if there are other planets with the conditions of earth.

I think the verdict among the scientific community is unanimous: life needs oxygen and water to arise on its own. While Dr. Hawking isn't an evolutionary biologist, he was quoted as saying that the Universe should be rich in life due to the preponderance of solar systems/planets/the ease with which water is created. Heck, scientists from NASA are finding evidence of agua on Mars, and because of that, have strong and justified suspicion life once existed there. By extension, if life probably existed on Mars, and definitely exists on Earth, and since Earth is one planet out of trillions and trillions of planets in the known Universe, it stands to reason the possibility of our solar system as the only solar system capable of supporting life would be 0.000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001%

[quote:2dhfbtyx]Or, are you saying that you do not believe that the universe can be this big without more life in it?

Yep!

Actually aliens can be proven. If we find alien life, then that would pretty much answer that question.

Agreed.

Assuming that aliens exist by deductive reasoning would be very wrong. You have no basis on which to deduce that life exists outside our on biosphere. Saying that the universe is huge, therefore there must be other life, is poor logic.

So suppose there's a tide pool. In the tide pool there exists 150 species of life. Suppose further that one species discovers his tide pool resides in a huge (i mean huge) watery planet. He makes the correct belief that there must have been a Creator G-d that created not just his little tide pool, but the entire planet. But, he also makes by a deductive process the assumption that there exists lots and lots of life outside his own tide pool, even tho he has never actually studied or saw life outside his li'l tide pool; he just knows that, since there's lots of water outside it, and incoming data is already showing that there are lots and lots of tide pools like his own, that there has to be life out there. Lots of life. Big life. He may propose the absurd hypothesis that there are huge swimmers that have jagged teeth. Or even larger swimmers that sing notes and chords. Or even more preposterous ideas, like swimmers that breathe the oxygenated air, above.
But he has this annoying poster he's talking to on a watery internet connection who is saying his hypotheses are ridiculous and absurd and logically "wrong."[/quote:2dhfbtyx]

No where in this post was there in logical reasoning. Just mere assertions.

 

[VaultZero4Me]

Modern atheists do not differentiate between their position and that of agnosticism. They claim no to disbelieve in God, but simply to not believe in Him.

There is no way to gain evidence that something does not exist. For example, you probably do not believe in the existence of the god Jupiter. But what possible evidence could you possibly set forth to prove that Jupiter does not exist?

It appears impossible to prove in the non-existence of any particular thing. So the modern atheist believes the ball is in the Theist's court to prove that the Creator God in which he believes, does, in fact, exist.

Atheism is not a religion. Atheists do not "accept by faith" the proposition that God does not exist. They simply, for lack of evidence, do not believe that He does, in fact, exist.

Your stance can only be true if your first posit is true. But a quick tour over at richarddawkins forum will radically and quickly change your mind on the subject.

If someone shouts, "I'm an Atheist." What he's saying is, "I have faith that there is no G-d." In other words, he's saying he doesn't believe, and is Atheist.
If someone shouts, "I disbelieve in G-d." What he is saying is, "I don't have faith that there is a G-d." In other words, he not saying he doesn't believe, but that he doesn't not believe. Such a soul is agnostic.

As cleared up on other postings, agnostics do not believe the question to have a valid yes or no answer, because it is impossible to provide evidence for yes or no.

Atheists believe that the question could be answered, and so far no evidence for the "yes" case has been provided.

 

[The Bible Thumper]

No where in this post was there in logical reasoning. Just mere assertions.

I refuse.

 

[The Bible Thumper]

As cleared up on other postings, agnostics do not believe the question to have a valid yes or no answer, because it is impossible to provide evidence for yes or no.

Atheists believe that the question could be answered, and so far no evidence for the "yes" case has been provided.

I utterly and totally refuse.

 

[VaultZero4Me]

Ok

 

[Gabe]

I have nothing new to add except, Wow! My spelling of 'Leprechauns' was HORRIFIC! What shame, I suppose that's what happens when you post messages using your mobile with no spell check features.

 

[platos_cave]

I'm thinking that if all Atheists share the same faith (faith that there is no G-d), then I would be logically consistent to stereotype them into a single group.

1) It's not a faith nor is it an accurate representation of atheism. Atheism is a disbelief, not necessarily a positive affirmation of the non-existence of god.
2) It isn't logically consistent to stereotype, what kind of thinking is that?

"If all black people share the same skin, then it would be logically consistent to stereotype them into a single group! Hur hur!"

:-?

 

[platos_cave]

If someone shouts, "I'm an Atheist." What he's saying is, "I have faith that there is no G-d." In other words, he's saying he doesn't believe, and is Atheist.

No, that's entirely untrue. Despite the corrections given to you by both theists and atheists alike, you seem to maintain this position with no validity.

 

[The Bible Thumper]

I cannot engage in any further dialogue until you guys come to a common consensus with regards to what Atheists believes and what they don't believe. I insist Atheism is the simple faith and belief that there is no theistic G-d. This differs from agnosticism, which says, "I don't know, but science may, one day..."

One school on this forum says the former applies; the second, the latter. Until we all can come to an agreement we are stuck. Like an Atheist in his sin.