The Resurrection accounts

[Physicist]

Physicist wrote:
First, I think it is highly speculative to impute motives to the anonymous gospel authors. Having said that, I will now speculate .

The Mark author ended his story with only the women seeing the young man at the tomb. No apostle and no resurrected Jesus appearance. The women leave and tell no one. This would be consistent with the author writing a work of didactic fiction since a climax including dramatic appearance by a rising God in front of large crowds would invite skepticism from readers who had heard no such reports. This is the conclusion of such liberal Christian authors as Bishop Spong.

The later gospel authors, further removed from the actual events, would be free to embellish their endings with more spectacular scenes.

Highly speculative, but is that not what you are doing do discredit the resurrection. All I am saying is "if" you are going to make up a story about whatever, you don't start off by using less creditable wittinesses. You start off with the best impact you can. As far as the women telling no one at the end of Mark's account, well you can turn that any way you what to fit your ideal of how said events happened or did not. like,, The women ran away afraid and told no one because they where afraid. True at the time they were afraid, and yes I can see them running and not stopping to tell anyone. They the initial fear gave way to uncertainty and questions and this is where they inquire to the disciples as to the where abouts of their master. So yes we can all put our own spin on any topic but. the bible backs itself up with this verse

Possible but this is going beyond the end of the Mark text. I could imagine that Rhett Butler and Scarlet Ohara get back together but, in doing so, I am going beyond the end of the story in ' Gone with the wind.'

2 Timothy 3:16
All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness.

[/quote]

You do know that the Pastorals were almost certainly pseudo-graphical, don't you? The overwhelming scholarly consensus is that Paul did not write them. This pleases the wife since she also notes that the author of 1 Timothy wrote some rather oppressive comments about women's rights.

 

[Vic C.]

Hmm, I wouldn't say an overwhelming majority of scholars believe this; just an overwhelming majority of critical and liberal scholars. :yes

Also, there is nothing oppressive about the NT and the Gospel. Jesus came to relieve His believers of oppression.

John 8:31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;
John 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
John 8:33 They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?
John 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
John 8:35 And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.
John 8:36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

There is nothing oppressive about 1 Timothy either, unless one is reading it way out of it's culture and context.

 

[Free]

^ Agreed. Christianity was very liberating for women at that time and the resurrection accounts certainly help in that respect.

 

[Tabasco Breath]

Hmm, I wouldn't say an overwhelming majority of scholars believe this; just an overwhelming majority of critical and liberal scholars. :yes

Also, there is nothing oppressive about the NT and the Gospel. Jesus came to relieve His believers of oppression.

John 8:31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;
John 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
John 8:33 They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?
John 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
John 8:35 And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.
John 8:36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

There is nothing oppressive about 1 Timothy either, unless one is reading it way out of it's culture and context.

One strong agreement.

Much of the Bible, and Yeshua as well, was about redressing their sociopolitical position of subjugation from within their faith and from out.

 

[stovebolts]

Tell me again now, who was the first to find the tomb empty? ;)

 

[logical bob]

Certian things within the written Word will make some sense, but overall, the overall picture will not make sense to the average non-christian. < I believe you fall into this category, not of your own choice, but by the will of God this is true.

I fall into this category very much through my own choice thanks. But you've highlighted the reason that Christians like you and a typical atheist are talking entirely at cross purposes. What you've done is take any rational discussion of the Bible off the table. I could set out the evidence for Markan priority and the two source hypothesis, talk about how odd it is that the OT makes no reference to the dead going to heaven or hell or make any other point I wanted and you'd say it was all irrelevant because I was approaching the Bible in a carnal way and there had been no revelataion to my understanding. If by definition a sceptic cannot understand the Bible then no evidence can count against your view of what it means. In philosophical terms, your view is not open to falsification and so discussing it rationally is futile. With no disrespect to you, this is what atheists mean when they say that faith of this type is inherently irrational.

I don't know if you belong to a particular denomination, but this view reminds me of the Catholic position which sparked the Reformation. Luther stood up for the right of everyone to read the Bible and interpret it for themselves - something you now say can't happen.

 

[Mysteryman]

Certian things within the written Word will make some sense, but overall, the overall picture will not make sense to the average non-christian. < I believe you fall into this category, not of your own choice, but by the will of God this is true.

I fall into this category very much through my own choice thanks. But you've highlighted the reason that Christians like you and a typical atheist are talking entirely at cross purposes. What you've done is take any rational discussion of the Bible off the table. I could set out the evidence for Markan priority and the two source hypothesis, talk about how odd it is that the OT makes no reference to the dead going to heaven or hell or make any other point I wanted and you'd say it was all irrelevant because I was approaching the Bible in a carnal way and there had been no revelataion to my understanding. If by definition a sceptic cannot understand the Bible then no evidence can count against your view of what it means. In philosophical terms, your view is not open to falsification and so discussing it rationally is futile. With no disrespect to you, this is what atheists mean when they say that faith of this type is inherently irrational.

I don't know if you belong to a particular denomination, but this view reminds me of the Catholic position which sparked the Reformation. Luther stood up for the right of everyone to read the Bible and interpret it for themselves - something you now say can't happen.

Hi Bob

Well, this is where you need to get to know me better. Or should I say, what I believe. Actually, I am saying that they can understand what they are reading for themselves. Christians I mean. You see, we Christians believe that everyone who calls themselves a Christian, is not necessarily a true Christian. We believe that there are wolves in sheep clothing who dwell among us. Deceivers . We also consider these deceivers are also called tares that grow with the good seed. The harvest is not here yet at this time.

My point is this, non-christins who call themselves christians, will not fully understand scripture. However, they are there within the fold for the purpose of causing division.

Another group of Christians, that are indeed Christians, are what we call babes in the word. These babes are unskilled in the scriptures. So the more mature need to help those who are not very mature, or otherwords , babes who drink the milk of the word.

Then there are those who eat the meat of the word and those who eat the strong meat of the word.

As you can see, there are differences , and because of this, there are also purposes for why we still need teachers of the word, and why some do not. All true Christians , those who have Christ in them, which is also called the Spirit of truth. The Spirit of truth will guide them into all truth. Babes lack the ability or desire to use their Spirit of truth, which functions are based upon free will. Which is also based upon one's faith.

As I am typing this, I believe God , in order that what I say can in some way help with some understanding. At the least, even people like yourself, are not totally ignorant of God altogether.

The Word tells us, that all mankind have what is called the "spirit of man" within every human being. This "spirit" gives all humans their emotions and an ability to reason out with logic. This is why , even within your own life, you still reason and live your life based upon some form of logic. God would have all men to come to a knowledge of the truth and become saved. What makes this available to everyone, is that everyone has the spirit of man within them. Think of it as a tool , if you will. This seperates us from animals , in that as a human being you are able to "reason" things out. Just the mere fact that you are here discussing with us. Shows us at least, that you are still trying to reason out certain things. Whether you understand or what you consider at the very least logical, you still cling to those things. For instance, even though I do not know you personnaly. You still live your life out in such a way, that you "reasoned" out why you come here, and for whatever purpose that might be. You still reasoned it out within your own mind. Without the spirit of man within you, that would not be possible.

We reason out that if we do not have some rules to follow in our daily lives, that it will lead to chaos. Which is total confusion. And no one wants confusion , especially a constant confusion within their lives. Most of us want peace, for the most part. Men are constantly inventing something. Inventions are based upon a "reasoning out" of a certain problem or explanation to a given idea or circumstance. All of this comes from the spirit of man. You see Bob, I know you have this spirit, even if you deny it. At the very least, when I explain something to you, I am at least believing that I am not totally wasting my time and effort. Even if you never convert to christianity. At least I know that you can grasp some of what I am telling you.

There is logic within the Word of God, and I am sure you see at least some of that logic. What percent is yet to be seen, or understood by us. But we all know, that you at least grasp the basics of logic which comes from within the Word of God, even though you do not live by the bible.

Take care- IN Christ - MM

 

[Elijah674]

There is only one segment of the 66 books that God penned as seen in Isa. 8:20's first part of the verse, The last part is called testimony. All these men were Holy Inspired men, yet using their own 'discriptive' pen to testify of the Inspiration given. One needs to have the BOOK in the final reading of testimony to get the proper verdict, (or complete picture) huh! Matt. 4:4 2 Tim. 3:16 Isa. 28:9-10

--Elijah

 

[Physicist]

Certian things within the written Word will make some sense, but overall, the overall picture will not make sense to the average non-christian. < I believe you fall into this category, not of your own choice, but by the will of God this is true.

I fall into this category very much through my own choice thanks. But you've highlighted the reason that Christians like you and a typical atheist are talking entirely at cross purposes. What you've done is take any rational discussion of the Bible off the table. I could set out the evidence for Markan priority and the two source hypothesis, talk about how odd it is that the OT makes no reference to the dead going to heaven or hell or make any other point I wanted and you'd say it was all irrelevant because I was approaching the Bible in a carnal way and there had been no revelataion to my understanding. If by definition a sceptic cannot understand the Bible then no evidence can count against your view of what it means. In philosophical terms, your view is not open to falsification and so discussing it rationally is futile. With no disrespect to you, this is what atheists mean when they say that faith of this type is inherently irrational.

I don't know if you belong to a particular denomination, but this view reminds me of the Catholic position which sparked the Reformation. Luther stood up for the right of everyone to read the Bible and interpret it for themselves - something you now say can't happen.

Hi Bob

Well, this is where you need to get to know me better. Or should I say, what I believe. Actually, I am saying that they can understand what they are reading for themselves. Christians I mean. You see, we Christians believe that everyone who calls themselves a Christian, is not necessarily a true Christian. We believe that there are wolves in sheep clothing who dwell among us. Deceivers . We also consider these deceivers are also called tares that grow with the good seed. The harvest is not here yet at this time.

My point is this, non-christins who call themselves christians, will not fully understand scripture. However, they are there within the fold for the purpose of causing division.

Another group of Christians, that are indeed Christians, are what we call babes in the word. These babes are unskilled in the scriptures. So the more mature need to help those who are not very mature, or otherwords , babes who drink the milk of the word.

Then there are those who eat the meat of the word and those who eat the strong meat of the word.

As you can see, there are differences , and because of this, there are also purposes for why we still need teachers of the word, and why some do not. All true Christians , those who have Christ in them, which is also called the Spirit of truth. The Spirit of truth will guide them into all truth. Babes lack the ability or desire to use their Spirit of truth, which functions are based upon free will. Which is also based upon one's faith.

As I am typing this, I believe God , in order that what I say can in some way help with some understanding. At the least, even people like yourself, are not totally ignorant of God altogether.

The Word tells us, that all mankind have what is called the "spirit of man" within every human being. This "spirit" gives all humans their emotions and an ability to reason out with logic. This is why , even within your own life, you still reason and live your life based upon some form of logic. God would have all men to come to a knowledge of the truth and become saved. What makes this available to everyone, is that everyone has the spirit of man within them. Think of it as a tool , if you will. This seperates us from animals , in that as a human being you are able to "reason" things out. Just the mere fact that you are here discussing with us. Shows us at least, that you are still trying to reason out certain things. Whether you understand or what you consider at the very least logical, you still cling to those things. For instance, even though I do not know you personnaly. You still live your life out in such a way, that you "reasoned" out why you come here, and for whatever purpose that might be. You still reasoned it out within your own mind. Without the spirit of man within you, that would not be possible.

We reason out that if we do not have some rules to follow in our daily lives, that it will lead to chaos. Which is total confusion. And no one wants confusion , especially a constant confusion within their lives. Most of us want peace, for the most part. Men are constantly inventing something. Inventions are based upon a "reasoning out" of a certain problem or explanation to a given idea or circumstance. All of this comes from the spirit of man. You see Bob, I know you have this spirit, even if you deny it. At the very least, when I explain something to you, I am at least believing that I am not totally wasting my time and effort. Even if you never convert to christianity. At least I know that you can grasp some of what I am telling you.

There is logic within the Word of God, and I am sure you see at least some of that logic. What percent is yet to be seen, or understood by us. But we all know, that you at least grasp the basics of logic which comes from within the Word of God, even though you do not live by the bible.

Take care- IN Christ - MM

With all due respect, you appear to have conceded the rational argument to Logical Bob. Are you saying that your interpretation of the Bible is true because God tells you subjectively that this is so? 'God' told the Rev. Jimmy Jones to do the things that he did in South America and the 9/11 terrorists to smash planes into buildings. Civilization requires the ability to move beyond subjective feelings and discuss Reality using objective evidence.

Do you ever wonder why Jesus seems to talk to Texas Baptists who were raised in Baptist families in a Christian cultural environment while he remains silent to everyone born in Riyadh Saudi Arabia? Does his subjective 'cell phone' coverage exclude Muslim lands?

 

[glorydaz]

We're not talking Jim Jones here. We're talking hundreds of thousands of Christians down through the ages. It's the same message, the same God, the same risen Lord, and the same Holy Spirit.

 

[Physicist]

We're not talking Jim Jones here. We're talking hundreds of thousands of Christians down through the ages. It's the same message, the same God, the same risen Lord, and the same Holy Spirit.

Is it the same message? For many centuries, being Christian in Europe meant being a Catholic. Do Catholics have the same message as the Baptists or the Coptics or the Jehovah's Witnesses, or the Moonies, or the Mormons, or the Gnostics or the Greek Orthodox or the....

 

[chestertonrules]

There is only one segment of the 66 books that God penned as seen in Isa. 8:20's first part of the verse, The last part is called testimony. All these men were Holy Inspired men, yet using their own 'discriptive' pen to testify of the Inspiration given. One needs to have the BOOK in the final reading of testimony to get the proper verdict, (or complete picture) huh! Matt. 4:4 2 Tim. 3:16 Isa. 28:9-10

--Elijah

Who told you which books belong in the bible?

 

[Elijah674]

There is only one segment of the 66 books that God penned as seen in Isa. 8:20's first part of the verse, The last part is called testimony. All these men were Holy Inspired men, yet using their own 'discriptive' pen to testify of the Inspiration given. One needs to have the BOOK in the final reading of testimony to get the proper verdict, (or complete picture) huh! Matt. 4:4 2 Tim. 3:16 Isa. 28:9-10

--Elijah

Who told you which books belong in the bible?

I like my two old testament bible from the old Jew's two, first it seems! ;) But history pretty much is agreed to start with Christ at 5 instead of 0. So 'i' personally think that 2010 is pretty close? Anyway, back to the N.T. that I see as needing no division. I believe that God has just kept this knowledge before ones who had sincerely believed that He was able & did INSPIRE HOLY men to pen His Testimony to humanity. (but surely God did not really need us, as Rom. 2:14-15 attest to, and His nature is still here)

And I agree that this is my faith, not yours perhaps. (compare the Positives in Heb. 6:1-5) And perhaps it does take faith to believe that God spake the world into existance in five days, along with that He hung the world on nothing?
But 'i' am a simple believer who does not wonder much about why both my wife and myself have four knee caps.

--Elijah

 

[francisdesales]

Who told you which books belong in the bible?

I like my two old testament bible from the old Jew's two, first it seems! ;) But history pretty much is agreed to start with Christ at 5 instead of 0. So 'i' personally think that 2010 is pretty close? Anyway, back to the N.T. that I see as needing no division. I believe that God has just kept this knowledge before ones who had sincerely believed that He was able & did INSPIRE HOLY men to pen His Testimony to humanity. (but surely God did not really need us, as Rom. 2:14-15 attest to, and His nature is still here)

And I agree that this is my faith, not yours perhaps. (compare the Positives in Heb. 6:1-5) And perhaps it does take faith to believe that God spake the world into existance in five days, along with that He hung the world on nothing?
But 'i' am a simple believer who does not wonder much about why both my wife and myself have four knee caps.

--Elijah

Can you answer chestertonrules' question or not?

 

[Free]

Just curious as to what these current posts have to do with the topic?

 

[Elijah674]

Just curious as to what these current posts have to do with the topic?

OK: Back on topic! But my Jewish Bible was here first! :yes And it says that to be resurrected one must die first, RIGHT??

And we know what you mostly all teach. That one of these two are LIARS! Which one of the two is that??
Gen.3
[1] Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?
[2] And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:
[3] But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.
[4] And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

--Elijah