The Rock that Jesus Builds his Church is not Peter

[jgarden_47]

In reality, Paul has been the foundation of the Christian Church. He was Christianity's greatest missionary, writer, theologian and most articulate spokesman. Although he was not one of the disciples, Paul was recruited by Christ in a unique manner.

Paul was the Apostle to the Gentiles while Peter the Apostle to the Jews. The Jerusalem Church was largely destroyed by the Romans in 70 AD as the center of Christianity shifted from Jerusalem to Rome.

It was Paul who confronted Peter and his fellow Jewish Christians on behalf of the Gentiles, for refusing to eat with fellow Gentile Christians based on Jewish law. It was Peter, not Paul, who was intimidated by the representatives of James, the head of the Jerusalem church.

 

[ThinkerMan]

In reality, Paul has been the foundation of the Christian Church. He was Christianity's greatest missionary, writer, theologian and most articulate spokesman. Although he was not one of the disciples, Paul was recruited by Christ in a unique manner.

Paul was the Apostle to the Gentiles while Peter the Apostle to the Jews. The Jerusalem Church was largely destroyed by the Romans in 70 AD as the center of Christianity shifted from Jerusalem to Rome.

It was Paul who confronted Peter and his fellow Jewish Christians on behalf of the Gentiles, for refusing to eat with fellow Gentile Christians based on Jewish law. It was Peter, not Paul, who was intimidated by the representatives of James, the head of the Jerusalem church.

This has always intrigued me (even in my Christian days).

Jesus picks 12 guys as his cohorts. One utterly fails, and gets replaced.

Nevertheless, you have 11 originals who have been with him the whole time, hearing his parables, witnessing his miracles, present at his resurrection.

Yet somehow they are not enough. Instead, Jesus comes to Paul, a nobody, and makes him the chief witness (according to what we know). Peter and James and Simon and all the rest be darned.

Why did Jesus even have the original 12 (or 11), if all he needed was Paul? Who was Paul to upend Peter? Paul never even met the fellow.

You post implies Peter was a fool, yet it ignores that Jesus picked him as his chief apostle. Out of 12 (or 11) apostles, why couldn't Jesus get at least one to get a decent message out? None of the 12 (or 11) even became the head of the Jerusalem church, something again passing to another James (according to the bible).

I have never had a good answer to this question...why is Paul necessary? Counting the women (not to mention 500 witnesses, according to Paul), there were a great many supposed witnesses to Jesus. Why Paul? Why didn't Jesus just pick a gentile as part of his contingent when he was around if that's what he wanted?

In reality, Paul has been the foundation of the Christian Church.

I agree with that 100%. Christianity is almost completely Paul's.

Although he was not one of the disciples, Paul was recruited by Christ in a unique manner.

According to Paul.

Visions are a dime a dozen. It might be slightly more believable if there weren't multiple conflicting versions of the story.

 

[Orthodox Christian]

In reality, Paul has been the foundation of the Christian Church. He was Christianity's greatest missionary, writer, theologian and most articulate spokesman. Although he was not one of the disciples, Paul was recruited by Christ in a unique manner.

Paul was the Apostle to the Gentiles while Peter the Apostle to the Jews. The Jerusalem Church was largely destroyed by the Romans in 70 AD as the center of Christianity shifted from Jerusalem to Rome.

It was Paul who confronted Peter and his fellow Jewish Christians on behalf of the Gentiles, for refusing to eat with fellow Gentile Christians based on Jewish law. It was Peter, not Paul, who was intimidated by the representatives of James, the head of the Jerusalem church.

This has always intrigued me (even in my Christian days).

Jesus picks 12 guys as his cohorts. One utterly fails, and gets replaced.

Nevertheless, you have 11 originals who have been with him the whole time, hearing his parables, witnessing his miracles, present at his resurrection.

Yet somehow they are not enough. Instead, Jesus comes to Paul, a nobody, and makes him the chief witness (according to what we know). Peter and James and Simon and all the rest be darned.

Why did Jesus even have the original 12 (or 11), if all he needed was Paul? Who was Paul to upend Peter? Paul never even met the fellow.

You are asking excellent questions, ones that most Protestants do not seem to consider, because to answer these questions one must either undermine the authority of the Twelve, or acknowledge that the authority of the Twelve did not die with them.

Churches with Apostolic succession see the Twelve as the beginning of the Church, but not the sole foundation: "apostles and prophets" is broader than Twelve.
The Apostles delegated authority to others who would in turn do likewise (2 Tim 2:2).

Jesus picked Twelve. They in turn established Churches, and picked Bishops and Deacons. One of the Churches they (Peter, actually) established was Antioch. Paul was commissioned in a unique way by the Lord, but confirmed and commended to the brethren by existing authority. Antioch selected and commissioned Paul. In addition, Paul submitted his revelation of the gospel to the Apostles at Jerusalem to see if he "had run his race in vain" (ie, was mistaken).

So, as Israel began with a man (Jacob), who begat Twelve sons, and they in turn begat sons and daughters, so did Christ 'beget' Twelve, who in turn had other 'sons and daughters.' Others in the history of the Church have been uniquely called in ways nearly as striking as Paul's. Since they were not of the first generation, we did not canonize any of their theological treatises- but treasure them within the Tradition of the Church.

Paul was a scholar and a mystic, and he wa able to articulate the faith in a manner beyond the pen of any of the other Apostles. But it is instructive to see that Paul submitted first, then spoke with authority when given same.

You post implies Peter was a fool, yet it ignores that Jesus picked him as his chief apostle. Out of 12 (or 11) apostles, why couldn't Jesus get at least one to get a decent message out? None of the 12 (or 11) even became the head of the Jerusalem church, something again passing to another James (according to the bible).

Actually, Peter's universal epistles are, in my estimation, decent messages. Among the Seventy that Jesus chose was a young physician by the name of Luke, who also created a beautiful historical account of the gospel and of the acts of the Apostles. Why Paul and James, and why later? I suspect everything and every person has their unique, appointed (chairos) time. That's what it says in Ecclesiaastes, anyway (cue Byrds)

I have never had a good answer to this question...why is Paul necessary? Counting the women (not to mention 500 witnesses, according to Paul), there were a great many supposed witnesses to Jesus. Why Paul? Why didn't Jesus just pick a gentile as part of his contingent when he was around if that's what he wanted?

Please see above for my meager explanation.

In reality, Paul has been the foundation of the Christian Church.

I agree with that 100%. Christianity is almost completely Paul's.

What Paul brings to the table is a unique synthesis of Greek and Hebrew thought. Christianity is not almost completely Pauline- Protestantism is.

Although he was not one of the disciples, Paul was recruited by Christ in a unique manner.

According to Paul.

Visions are a dime a dozen. It might be slightly more believable if there weren't multiple conflicting versions of the story.

Whatever happened to Paul on that road changed him deeply and permanently. He may have been deluded, but he was not double-minded.
Regards
James

 

[cj]

Lord Jesus.

So much blindness exists within the body as a result of poor ministry of the word of God.

So many people, saved and desiring to serve the living God, and yet oblivious to the fact that what they have is simply an unacceptable effort out of their self/flesh.

And there is no place that this blindness is more evident than in discussions about these verses regarding the Lord's initial revelation of the church to His disciples.


This is the truth,..... Peter was not the first Pope. It was not given to Peter to be the earthly head of God's church. And any believer who declares this lie of Satan is also declaring that, be it in ignorance, he or she is absolutely against God. For Christ alone, He that lives on the earth today, was given the headship of the church by the Father, and has never relinquished it.

There is just one Head, and this is Christ Jesus.

Rome and all that is represented in and out of Rome, is a fraudulent attempt by God's adversary to counterfeit the kingdom of the heavens. And we can know this as a result of knowing from God's word that the kingdom of the heavens is a kingdom of faith and not sight, and sight is the foundational pillars of the false Roman kingdom.

Additionally, one can find an expression of the fraud in the issue of the economy of the Roman counterfeit. Since its institution the Roman counterfeit has perpetuated its fraud upon the believeing body, and the world on a whole, through the MAN-ipulated culture of PAPER.

Or, as it is called in another language,..... PAPEL.

Contrary to the economy of God, which is carried out in the spirit of men (inward instruction) by the Spirit, the Romanist way is one of edicts and requires submission to outward instruction.

Note, that even the commencement of a papal reign is initiated by the actions of men and centered on PAPEL (paper).

And what is the core of Satan's economy of mammon?

Currency, or money. Which finds its expression on nothing other than.... PAPEL (paper).

The truth be told, papal authority is only build on a man-made PAPEL (paper) culture.


But lets get to the scriptures in question.

"Now when Jesus came into the parts of Caesarea Philippi, He asked His disciples, saying, Who do men say that the Son of Man is?

And they said, Some, John the Baptist; and others, Elijah; and still others, Jeremiah or one of the prophets.

He said to them, But you, who do you say that I am?

And Simon Peter answered and said, You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.

And Jesus answered and said to him, Blessed are you, Simon Barjona, because flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in the heavens.

And I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it.

I will give to you the keys of the kingdom of the heavens, and whatever you bind on the earth shall have been bound in the heavens, and whatever you loose on the earth shall have been loosed in the heavens.

Then He charged the disciples not to tell anyone that He was the Christ."


So here we have the entire speaking of the bible regarding this series of verses.

And this is the truth,.... no part of this entire speaking can be taken separately from any other.

Therefore, first note that the Lord had removed Himself from the environment of the old testament religion.

Caesarea Philippi is in the northern part of the Holy Land, close to the border, at the foot of Mount Hermon, on which the Lord was transfigured (17:1-2). It was far from the holy city and the holy temple, where the atmosphere of the old Jewish religion filled every man's thought, leaving no room for Christ, the new King. The Lord brought His disciples purposely to such a place with its clear atmosphere that their thought might be released from the effects of the religious surroundings in the holy city and holy temple and that He might reveal to them something new concerning Himself and the church, which are the pulse of His heavenly kingdom. It was in Caesarea Philippi that the vision concerning Him as the Christ, the Son of the living God, came to Peter (vv. 16-17). It was there also that the church was revealed and mentioned for the first time as the means of bringing in the kingdom of the heavens (vv. 18-19).

Secondly, note the question that the Lord asked....... Who do they say the SON OF MAN is?

The disciples answered using the opinions of others...... the opinions of "SOME",...... those who had no heavenly revelation.

But then the Lord asks,.... Who do YOU say I AM?

And then we have Peter's reply.

But also note that the Lord was speaking to all of His disciples, from the begining of this discourse, to the end.

Back to Peter,..... in Peter's answer we can see the difference between human understanding and heavenly revelation. But there is something else that we can see....... the fact that Peter did not have the full revelation of God.

Note what the Lord says to Peter (and the other disciples who are included in the audience),..... "AND I ALSO SAY...."

Right here we can see the Lord adding to Peter's revelation,... but adding what?

First, He told Peter who Peter was now that he had received this heavenly revelation....... a stone (see Peter's own witness to this in his speaking of how believers become living stones) that will be used in the building of God's church. Then he tells that the gates of Hades, which refers to Satan's authority or power of darkness (Col. 1:13; Acts 26:18), cannot prevail against the genuine church built by Christ upon "this rock".

And just what is "this rock"?

The hope/Reality of the eternal year of jubilee.

Acts 26:18, "To open their eyes, to turn them from darkness to light and from the authority of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who have been sanctified by faith in Me."

And Christ alone is the eternal reality of the Jubilee of God for men.



And then Paul, the apostle of God to the Gentiles, declared the one truth regarding a believer's "seeing".......

"Therefore, King Agrippa,...... I was not disobedient to the..... heavenly vision,"


The following Rome issues in believers clinging to an earthly vision, but the following the of God as taught to us by His chosen apostles issues in believers eyes being set upon a heavenly vision.


And so the fraud is exposed, the manifestation of Satan's mind revealed.

Those who give themselves to an earthly vision give themselves to the one who's kingdom is today on the earth, Satan.

But those who give themselves to the heavenly vision give themselves to the one who's kingdom is in the heavens, Jesus.



In love,
cj

 

[cj]

So, as Israel began with a man (Jacob), who begat Twelve sons, and they in turn begat sons and daughters, so did Christ 'beget' Twelve,......"

Yet another lie from the pit of hell.


Scriptures tell us that believers are born of the Spirit.

OC declares that the Lord "begat" twelve, yet scripture tells us that Thomas was missing when the Lord breathed upon the remaining disciples (numbering 10 at the time).

Additionally, who else was in the room at that time? From scripture we can know that Mary the Magdalene seemed to always be around the disciples, so could she have also been in the room and received the breath?


The typical way of the apostate is to suggest that scripture says something that in truth it does not say.

Reject this apostate speaking.

In love,
cj

 

[Orthodox Christian]

So, as Israel began with a man (Jacob), who begat Twelve sons, and they in turn begat sons and daughters, so did Christ 'beget' Twelve,......"

Yet another lie from the pit of hell:

Thanks for the forewarning- but I already know the source of your rants.

Scriptures tell us that believers are born of the Spirit.

Thanks, Mr. Obvious.

OC declares that the Lord "begat" twelve, yet scripture tells us that Thomas was missing when the Lord breathed upon the remaining disciples (numbering 10 at the time).

Jesus chose Twelve, according to the gospel in the Holy Bible that I have before me (my copy lacks your edits). Thomas was there in the upper room, and the same Spirit who was breathed upon the Apostles and fell upon the disciples also was given to Matthias at the laying on of hands.

Additionally, who else was in the room at that time? From scripture we can know that Mary the Magdalene seemed to always be around the disciples, so could she have also been in the room and received the breath?

Perhaps the breath floated up and turned the birds into Spirit-filled Apostles?

Are you for real?

The typical way of the apostate is to suggest that scripture says something that in truth it does not say.

You're really coming clean here, and that's good. Once you divest yourself of your apostasies and confusion, pehaps you can do some work on your manners and mannerisms

Reject this apostate speaking.

Oh, indeed I do.

Thanks for your sublime commentary, but I'm awaiting a reply from the person I responded to.
Jimbo

 

[Relic]

cj,

Thank you!

.

 

[Solo]

CJ,
Thanks for the great post. I have seen the accuser of the brethren active in multiple Churches, but I have not been aware of the deeply rooted satanic beliefs planted in the people of the Catholic institution until reading posts from OC, Thes, Stray, Ortho, and others that are pro-Roman Catholic. I can now see how the murders of the men of God in the past from the RCC can again take hold on the world as they are doing God's work, when their antiChristian goal to abolish satan's enemy occurs in the last days. I see no love of Christ in any of the posts, nor do I see any truth from the Word of God. I only see lies and deceptions.

Not a one of them can give a testimony of salvation or born again experience, leading me to believe that they are lost and bound for the lake of fire. Pride will do that to a person, and each one is hell-bent on protecting the lies of the Apostate organization called Catholicism.

Too bad that they can not stand for the truth of Jesus Christ and the brethren.

 

[Orthodox Christian]

CJ,
Thanks for the great post. I have seen the accuser of the brethren active in multiple Churches, but I have not been aware of the deeply rooted satanic beliefs planted in the people of the Catholic institution until reading posts from OC, Thes, Stray, Ortho, and others that are pro-Roman Catholic.

Wow- I've been identified as "pro-Roman Catholic." I don't think that this designation is accurate. I have appreciation and love for my Catholic brethren, even as I disagree with certain doctrinal distinctives with them.

I can now see how the murders of the men of God in the past from the RCC can again take hold on the world as they are doing God's work, when their antiChristian goal to abolish satan's enemy occurs in the last days.

Have you lost your mind? You equate disagreement on the interwurb with murer? Do you think of hangnail as a type of martyrdom? Let's not be over-dramatic here. Have you ever experienced real persecution?

I see no love of Christ in any of the posts, nor do I see any truth from the Word of God. I only see lies and deceptions.

Sorry to hear that- though I can see without qualification that I am feeling the love from CJ, after a fashion.

Not a one of them can give a testimony of salvation or born again experience, leading me to believe that they are lost and bound for the lake of fire.

Thanks for asking. Yes, I have a testimony, sir, I just don't caste pearls before swine- if you'll pardon the expression. I have shared my testimony from pulpits and podiums, in hospital rooms and prisons. But since you believe me headed for the fiery Gehenna, please do not forget to pray for Iakovos, the sinner. God knows I need mercy.

Pride will do that to a person, and each one is hell-bent on protecting the lies of the Apostate organization called Catholicism.

I hope you're reading this, stray bullet and Thessalonian. I recently took SB to task on a Catholic/Orthodox issue, and Thessalonian and I have danced a few jigs. Guess what, guys, I am a defender of Rome!

Too bad that they can not stand for the truth of Jesus Christ and the brethren.

I do stand for the Truth who is Jesus Christ, and I stand with my brethren, some who are not in my communion. Who are my brothers? Those who do the will of the Father, those who keep the commanments of God, and those who acknowledge the visible unity of the Church- even in it's present imperfection.

 

[Solo]

You only convince your "self". You have little to show in regards to the truth as revealed in the Word of God. Keep guessing and asking for prayer. With your salvation bound up in belonging to a manmade institution you need much prayer. Good luck.

 

[Lyric's Dad]

OC, if indeed you do accept Jesus Christ as your only source of salvation then I say wonderful and I am glad to have you as a member of the Body.

This is the same for anyone, regardless of what building they attend.

 

[stovebolts]

I am again amazed at the brotherhood... OC, I see Christ shinning in your life. For those that cannot see it, may I suggest that your quest has just begun. cj, you are a mighty warrior of God, yet like us all, we are but flesh bound by the regulations, temptations and limitations of the flesh.

What I see a lot of, is bashing and groups of people bashing other groups in a manner contradictory to what the word of God has to say, or sets as an example. I beleive that we are to test the scripture and seek peace anywhere that we can. Yet to those that refuse to listen< we are to kick the dust off our feet. To say that the RCC or Orthodox is not a part of the Church, is to say that others outside our view of God will all burn for the ages of ages. This thought, is simply bad theology, or an understanding thereof.

Jesus is the cornerstone of the Church and he measures and plumbs with true, heavinly justice and righteousness to create the foundation. We, the believers of Christ, who have been called and have accepted the call, are co-authors with Christ ,as it is Christ through us, that embodies, and composes the Church.

 

[Solo]

I am again amazed at the brotherhood... OC, I see Christ shinning in your life. For those that cannot see it, may I suggest that your quest has just begun. cj, you are a mighty warrior of God, yet like us all, we are but flesh bound by the regulations, temptations and limitations of the flesh.

What I see a lot of, is bashing and groups of people bashing other groups in a manner contradictory to what the word of God has to say, or sets as an example. I beleive that we are to test the scripture and seek peace anywhere that we can. Yet to those that refuse to listen< we are to kick the dust off our feet. To say that the RCC or Orthodox is not a part of the Church, is to say that others outside our view of God will all burn for the ages of ages. This thought, is simply bad theology, or an understanding thereof.

Jesus is the cornerstone of the Church and he measures and plumbs with true, heavinly justice and righteousness to create the foundation. We, the believers of Christ, who have been called and have accepted the call, are co-authors with Christ ,as it is Christ through us, that embodies, and composes the Church.

To say that the RCC is teaching false doctrine and are sending millions to hell would be an entirely different proposal than you have made. I submit that the RCC has not kept the Word of God, but instead is teaching doctrines of devils. The doctrines of the RCC are in direct oppostition of the Word of God. Perhaps you would like to study these facts before suggesting that the RCC is a part of the body of Christ. I know individuals that belong to the RCC that are heaven bound, but it isn't because of the RCC doctrine, it is because of the godly relationships that they have had and have been led to Jesus Christ.

 

[Lyric's Dad]

I know individuals that belong to the RCC that are heaven bound, but it isn't because of the RCC doctrine, it is because of the godly relationships that they have had and have been led to Jesus Christ.

Solo, while I definately know that we can be sure of our salvation today, I wonder when I see someone telling others that he is sure of someone elses salvation. How could you possibly know this?

 

[Orthodox Christian]

I know individuals that belong to the RCC that are heaven bound, but it isn't because of the RCC doctrine, it is because of the godly relationships that they have had and have been led to Jesus Christ.

Solo, while I definately know that we can be sure of our salvation today, I wonder when I see someone telling others that he is sure of someone elses salvation. How could you possibly know this?

Now that is a great question.

 

[Gary]

I know individuals that belong to the RCC that are heaven bound, but it isn't because of the RCC doctrine, it is because of the godly relationships that they have had and have been led to Jesus Christ.

Solo, while I definately know that we can be sure of our salvation today, I wonder when I see someone telling others that he is sure of someone elses salvation. How could you possibly know this?

Some popes have thought that they know the answer.

There is but one universal Church of the faithful, outside of which no one at all can be saved (Pope Innocent III, Fourth Lateran Council).

We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff (Pope Boniface VIII, Unam Sanctam).

The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes, and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit by the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgiving, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church (Pope Eugene IV, Cantate Domino).

:o :o :o

... but then again, the RCC claims that these men are infallible.

I wonder how they now reconcile those words with the "new" position of the RCC w.r.t. Muslims?

In the RCC's Catechism of the Catholic Church (CCC) we read: #841

"The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst them who are the Muslims...... etc etc"

I have often wondered... is that what prompted the crusades by the infallible pope Urban II in 1095? Was he offering those Muslims salvation while he murdered them, offering them "first place"?

:o :o

 

[Solo]

I know individuals that belong to the RCC that are heaven bound, but it isn't because of the RCC doctrine, it is because of the godly relationships that they have had and have been led to Jesus Christ.

Solo, while I definately know that we can be sure of our salvation today, I wonder when I see someone telling others that he is sure of someone elses salvation. How could you possibly know this?

You will know them by their fruits friend. I have led some dear Roman Catholics to the Lord Jesus Christ. The Lord has tilled the heart with the Holy Spirit, has brought about the friendship and trust between them and myself, and has opened their heart for acceptance of the truth. The Bible teaches that the sheep of Jesus hear his voice, and that the world does not. Many years of walking, learning, praying, preaching, meditating, and trusting have shown me many, many things.

 

[SpiritualSon]

The Rock that Jesus said that he would build his Church on is who or what?
It is not Peter, but it was common knowledge at the time of whom the Rock was. Keep in mind that the name that Jesus uses for Peter in the following verse is tranliterated Petros, a masculine noun, while the word that Jesus uses for rock is transliterated petra, a feminine noun.

15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? 16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. 17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. 18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. 19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. 20 Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ.
Matthew 16:15-20

Solo,
I am a member of the New Church (Swedenborg). Swedenborg wrote that all names, places, things, and all the things the Prophets had said and did in the OT, and the four Gospels, have a correspondences, which means a spiritual sense of the Holy Word. Rock means faith. Peter means faith from good.

The reason why the Lord took Peter, James and John up a mountain with Him, was because Peter represented faith, James represented charity, and John the works of charity. The Lord is the Rock, not Peter, because Peter said to the Lord, "Thou hast the words of eternal life, John 6:68."

Jesus said in John 14:9-11 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and dost thou not know me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; how sayest thou, Show us the Father?
10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I say unto you I speak not from myself: but the Father abiding in me doeth his works.
11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake. This means that Jesus Christ is Jehovah the Rock, as in Isaiah 44:8, "Is there a God besides Me? and a Rock? I know not any."
From Paul:
They all drank spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual Rock; the Rock was Christ 1 Corinthians 10:4 .

In Acts, the Disciples James and John, and all the rest of the Disciples had never called Peter his holiness nor kiss the ring on his hand.

Harry :fadein:

 

[stovebolts]

Today I will be away, so excuse me if I do not follow this thread in the manner in which I would like to.

You will know them by their fruits friend. I have led some dear Roman Catholics to the Lord Jesus Christ. The Lord has tilled the heart with the Holy Spirit, has brought about the friendship and trust between them and myself, and has opened their heart for acceptance of the truth. The Bible teaches that the sheep of Jesus hear his voice, and that the world does not. Many years of walking, learning, praying, preaching, meditating, and trusting have shown me many, many things.

Fruits yes, but ONLY God can judge ones heart. The door swings both ways my friend. As far as leading anyone to Christ, only the Spirit can do this. We, as a body, are simply vessels in which we are given the sanctification to reflect Christ in our lives to those around us. Yes, we are the vessels, but it is Him who does the work.
As far as being a sheep, yes, even some prots can stray from the flock. RCC or Orthodox doctrine is no different. Because you have meditated, prayed and trusted, does that give you the authority to say that the RCC or Orthodox way is a paved road to hell?? Surely this is not a core salvation issue, but simply a rewards or rather, inheritence.

Solo, we will all be held accountable in the great day of judgment for what we teach about our mighty God. Personally, I have a tendency to lean towards the Prot's view, and although I appreciate the hearts of our UR friends, I cannot embrace it, but I am not so brash to think that any one with a different view will or is destine to hell. Rather, I see many different people seeking God's will and when we do this, we do fullfill God's purpose.

When we look at Peter as being the Rock that the Church is founded upon, then we must look at Peter as a whole man. Yes, with all his faith and conviction and desire to serve our Lord, he was but a man. A founding father of the Church, built upon his conviction that God had allowed him through devine revelation, but yet, a man such as you and I, tempted by satan probably more so than the average individual. Look at the NT for the four example of satan saturating Peter... Yes, even Jesus rebuked Peter as Satan just a couple versed down from the one we've all quoted... and are you able to see the simularities between when Jesus was tempted inthe desert... and the words of satan through Peter? But don't stop here, look further, but don't cut off any ears and don't be afraid to eat any meat and finally, yes, the good news is available to all the dogs...

There are two sides to the fence and we must learn to look at both sides. We must speak, and we must listen. Finally, we must obey. If this is where the Lord has led you, then hold tight to your faith for His yoke is truly easy and His burdon light, but we must be willing to tow the yoke, lest if feel hard and heavy.

 

[SpiritualSon]

I believe that the name Jesus means the Divine Good or the Divine Love of Jehovah God the Father. The name Christ means the Divine Truth or the Divine Wisdom. These are the Divine Essence of one God. Jesus Christ is the Father in the Human, which is meant by the Divine and Human in Jesus Christ being one person, Although He is God and Man, yet He is not two, but one Christ. God and Man in Jesus means the Father and Son.

From the Creed of the Catholic Church:
As the Father is God, so the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God; and yet there are not three Gods, but one God. I believe that this is true, but only if the Trinity of one Person is acknowledge, and not three. Here's my reason: I believe the Father became Man under the name Jesus Christ, because the name Jesus Christ means the Divine Essence of the Father.

The Divine Essence of God is Love and Wisdom or Good and Truth, and these are meant by the name Jesus Christ. I believe the Holy Trinity wasn't until the Father assumed the Human under the name Jesus Christ, and born of the virgin Mary.

I believe the Human that was assumed by the Father, under the name Jesus Christ, is the Father's right hand. To sit at the right hand of God does not mean two persons sitting side by side. The right hand of God means God's Divine Omnipotence through the Human that He assumed in the world under the name Jesus Christ. By means of this He is in things last as well as in things first. By means of this He entered and overthrew and subjugated the hells. By means of this He restored order in the heavens. And by means of this, He redeemed both men and angels, and will continue to redeem for ever. If you consult the Word, and are capable of enlightenment, you will perceive that 'right hand' means here Divine Omnipotence through the Human.
As in Isaiah 47:13, Mine hand also hath laid the foundation of the earth, and my right hand hath spanned the heavens: when I call unto them, they stand up together.

How come the words "right hand" is not written in any of the Bibles, especially in Isaiah 47:13? My Bible is KJV.

My hand hath founded the earth, and My right hand hath spanned the heavens .
Jehovah hath sworn by His right hand and by the arm of His strength Isaiah 62:8.
Thy right hand doth hold Me up Psalms 18:35.

I believe the name Elohim means God of Gods, as angels and men on earth are little gods. The reason angels and men on earth are little gods, is because truth can be express in many way as there are angels in heaven and men on earth, and by that reason, angels and men are an image and likeness of God. Angels in heaven never claim power to themselves. They believe all power is from the Lord alone.

I am sorry, I stand corrected. The Right hand is not written in Isaiah 47:8. The correct one is Isaiah 48:13. The New Church had made a mistake. I am on the New Church mailing list, and I will let them know.

Harry :fadein: