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Guest, Join Papa Zoom today for some uplifting biblical encouragement! --> Daily Verses
The Sabbath day and its origin.
- Thread starter WalterandDebbie
- Start date
sourberry
Member
jasonc
Member
all come from eden but what was the torah given to adam. until the fall there was only one torah given
sourberry
Member
The Comforter.
Adam was given the breath. The Breath. And Adam witnessed the seventh day.
brother Paul
Member
Hi TOG….I will address some of these issues but it may take a couple pf posts…and I know there are a few different views but let’s see if I can show this view I have proposed (though do not expect you to agree)
No, but we are later told that that is the reason we should rest on the 7th day.
Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor, and do all your work, but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the Lord your God. On it you shall not do any work, you, or your son, or your daughter, your male servant, or your female servant, or your livestock, or the sojourner who is within your gates. For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy. (Ex. 20::8-11 ESV)
Are “we”? I showed you that this was a covenant (at least according to God) between YHVH and he Israelites…having said that, the 7th day will always be the 7th day Sabbath, but the question is are we in the New Covenant bound to understand and keep this commandment as it is kept by Sabbatarians today?
One of the things we notice about Jesus is that His coming as well as His death, burial, and resurrection, redefine the 10 commandments. He shows that the deeper truer meaning is much more than the ordinances written in stone. This is why we are told that all the law and the prophets hang on just two.
a) Love the Lord with all your heart, mind, and strength, and
b) Love your neighbor as yourself (or as you yourself would want to be loved)
Then further on we learn that love IS the fulfillment (or purpose) of the law…now that is not saying love without obedience so do not put words in my mouth. The point Jesus makes when He tells us mere anger is as murder and just lusting is as adultery is because the law was to speak to us about the “Spirit of Holiness” the Spirit of the law not the letter of the law…so then we who are born from above do honor the Sabbath, the Lord’s Sabbat, we rest in Him, and it is an everyday experience. In my home every day (from new moon to new moon, sabbath to sabbath) the Lord is discussed, the word is heard, He is thanked and praised, and there is prayer. He (Christ made one final sacrifice ONCE for ALL) is at rest. He is sitting down on the Father’s right hand and WE are in Him. Our salvation no longer depends on what we do but on what He has done on our behalf. The point I was making is that there is nothing in scripture that says we are to gather together for corporate worship on any particular day (not the 7th, nor the 1st) in a tabernacle, temple, synagogue, or church…not one! That is just the fact of the word of God and I do not apologize for it I just see/hear it an obey.
No, but we are later told that that is the reason we should rest on the 7th day.
Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor, and do all your work, but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the Lord your God. On it you shall not do any work, you, or your son, or your daughter, your male servant, or your female servant, or your livestock, or the sojourner who is within your gates. For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy. (Ex. 20::8-11 ESV)
Are “we”? I showed you that this was a covenant (at least according to God) between YHVH and he Israelites…having said that, the 7th day will always be the 7th day Sabbath, but the question is are we in the New Covenant bound to understand and keep this commandment as it is kept by Sabbatarians today?
One of the things we notice about Jesus is that His coming as well as His death, burial, and resurrection, redefine the 10 commandments. He shows that the deeper truer meaning is much more than the ordinances written in stone. This is why we are told that all the law and the prophets hang on just two.
a) Love the Lord with all your heart, mind, and strength, and
b) Love your neighbor as yourself (or as you yourself would want to be loved)
Then further on we learn that love IS the fulfillment (or purpose) of the law…now that is not saying love without obedience so do not put words in my mouth. The point Jesus makes when He tells us mere anger is as murder and just lusting is as adultery is because the law was to speak to us about the “Spirit of Holiness” the Spirit of the law not the letter of the law…so then we who are born from above do honor the Sabbath, the Lord’s Sabbat, we rest in Him, and it is an everyday experience. In my home every day (from new moon to new moon, sabbath to sabbath) the Lord is discussed, the word is heard, He is thanked and praised, and there is prayer. He (Christ made one final sacrifice ONCE for ALL) is at rest. He is sitting down on the Father’s right hand and WE are in Him. Our salvation no longer depends on what we do but on what He has done on our behalf. The point I was making is that there is nothing in scripture that says we are to gather together for corporate worship on any particular day (not the 7th, nor the 1st) in a tabernacle, temple, synagogue, or church…not one! That is just the fact of the word of God and I do not apologize for it I just see/hear it an obey.
brother Paul
Member
For TOG
Doesn't it? The very verse you quote tells us to have corporate worship on the Sabbath. What do you think a "holy convocation" is?
Yes, the law says to convocate (gather together), but it says to do so in your dwellings. And this was the covenant agreement the children of Israel made with YHVH and the consequences for violation were very strict (Deuteronomy 28). But again this cannot be used to support what people today claim or try to impose as “keeping the Sabbath” as it has been redefined by what Christ did. Listen to the word…many scriptures…
2 Corinthians 3 - 3 Forasmuch as you are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone (the 10 Commandments), but in fleshy tables of the heart (by the indwelling Spirit of God). 4 And such is the trust have we through Christ toward God: 5 Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think anything of ourselves (like as if we keep the commandments and others do not); but our sufficiency is of God (because it is not by what we do or have done, but of Christ); 6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the New Testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter kills (brings death), but the spirit gives life (His life in us the expectation of glory).
7 But if the ministration of death (the sin consciousness brought on by the Law), written and engraved in stones (that is the 10 Commandments), was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not steadfastly behold the face of Moses because of the glory of his countenance; which glory eventually faded (because by the commandments they were all guilty): 8 How shall the ministration of the Spirit not be even more glorious (who while we were yet sinners Christ dies for the ungodly…by love and grace)?
9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory (that righteousness which is by faith and not works).
10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excels (for it never ends). 11 For if that which is done away was glorious, much more is that which remains glorious.
Through the Law comes the knowledge of sin…though grace the love of God to-usward…the ministry of death was engraved on stone and the ministry of righteousness engraved on our hearts by the knowledge of salvation.
Romans 7: 6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
Alive apart from the law…dead by the law! Alive through Christ’s sufficient and pleasing sacrifice.
Colossians 2 13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all your trespasses;
14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us (the Law), which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross.
In His love
brother Paul
Doesn't it? The very verse you quote tells us to have corporate worship on the Sabbath. What do you think a "holy convocation" is?
Yes, the law says to convocate (gather together), but it says to do so in your dwellings. And this was the covenant agreement the children of Israel made with YHVH and the consequences for violation were very strict (Deuteronomy 28). But again this cannot be used to support what people today claim or try to impose as “keeping the Sabbath” as it has been redefined by what Christ did. Listen to the word…many scriptures…
2 Corinthians 3 - 3 Forasmuch as you are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone (the 10 Commandments), but in fleshy tables of the heart (by the indwelling Spirit of God). 4 And such is the trust have we through Christ toward God: 5 Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think anything of ourselves (like as if we keep the commandments and others do not); but our sufficiency is of God (because it is not by what we do or have done, but of Christ); 6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the New Testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter kills (brings death), but the spirit gives life (His life in us the expectation of glory).
7 But if the ministration of death (the sin consciousness brought on by the Law), written and engraved in stones (that is the 10 Commandments), was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not steadfastly behold the face of Moses because of the glory of his countenance; which glory eventually faded (because by the commandments they were all guilty): 8 How shall the ministration of the Spirit not be even more glorious (who while we were yet sinners Christ dies for the ungodly…by love and grace)?
9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory (that righteousness which is by faith and not works).
10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excels (for it never ends). 11 For if that which is done away was glorious, much more is that which remains glorious.
Through the Law comes the knowledge of sin…though grace the love of God to-usward…the ministry of death was engraved on stone and the ministry of righteousness engraved on our hearts by the knowledge of salvation.
Romans 7: 6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
Alive apart from the law…dead by the law! Alive through Christ’s sufficient and pleasing sacrifice.
Colossians 2 13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all your trespasses;
14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us (the Law), which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross.
In His love
brother Paul
jasonc
Member
uhm no, but jews would say the nepesh chaya and that part would mean they wouldn't have broken the torah.
but it was this. of the trees though mayest eath of them all save the tree of the knowledge of good and evil..
that was the first torah.
sourberry
Member
Jews certainly have wisdom. So does Adam.
Yet all failed Sabbath.
What is Sabbath? Why?
jasonc
Member
the shabat is what to you? in the bible its the day set aside from the sun down in Jerusalem on Friday to sun down on Saturday. it was a day rest for the Hebrews and no work was done. if the goy did that they would have taught each other about it. abram would have known. yet he didn't. I believe that abram met and personally knew noah and his sons and heard their stories of the pre flood earth. this is widely believed in Judaism.
TOG
Member
I'm glad you're sure. Too bad you have to ignore so much Scripture to be secure in your beliefs. It would be a lot more convincing if you didn't ignore every single verse I quoted.
The TOG
brother Paul
Member
Number 2 is that when we read Deuteronomy 5:2,3 we find that the 10 Commandments were a covenant agreement with Israel given at Horeb (Sinai in Arabia). the passage says "The Lord our God made a covenant with US in Horeb. The Lord made not this covenant with our fathers, but with us, even us, who are all of us here alive this day."
I think you might want to look at the context. In Deuteronomy, all of the people who were over 20 at Mt. Sinai had died in the wilderness. God most certainly had made the covenant with their fathers. So what does this mean? Moses was emphasizing to them that the covenant wasn't only with their fathers, but with them also.
I most certainly did look at the context and your interpretation is diametrically the opposite of what God says (ah but brother Paul what does this MEAN? But brother TOG what does it SAY). Whenever someone’s meaning opposes what God said it is they who are in error not God. There is nothing in the context to imply an “only” (that’s adding to His word), and nothing to imply this only refers to the previous generation…whenever the phrase “your fathers” is used it always refers to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob…like in Exodus 3 when the Angel of the LORD says I AM the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, etc…
See Lev. 23:3. And if you don't know what a holy convocation is, then I suggest you either use a more modern translation or learn Elizabethan English properly.
Again you are amiss and now you are judging and possibly insulting my intelligence. I know full well what a Holy Convocation is and what the word actually says (not what I was taught it means)
I think you might want to look at the context. In Deuteronomy, all of the people who were over 20 at Mt. Sinai had died in the wilderness. God most certainly had made the covenant with their fathers. So what does this mean? Moses was emphasizing to them that the covenant wasn't only with their fathers, but with them also.
I most certainly did look at the context and your interpretation is diametrically the opposite of what God says (ah but brother Paul what does this MEAN? But brother TOG what does it SAY). Whenever someone’s meaning opposes what God said it is they who are in error not God. There is nothing in the context to imply an “only” (that’s adding to His word), and nothing to imply this only refers to the previous generation…whenever the phrase “your fathers” is used it always refers to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob…like in Exodus 3 when the Angel of the LORD says I AM the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, etc…
See Lev. 23:3. And if you don't know what a holy convocation is, then I suggest you either use a more modern translation or learn Elizabethan English properly.
Again you are amiss and now you are judging and possibly insulting my intelligence. I know full well what a Holy Convocation is and what the word actually says (not what I was taught it means)
jasonc
Member
the Hebrew don't even do that. they say the torah was needed to get man back to living in love so to speak. the torah according the sages was in heaven prior to creation. I don't believe that part but I do accept that the word for torah is merely instruction.
sourberry makes a case where one doenst need to read the bible. by simply loving we are Holy.
TOG
Member
You said that there was no connection between the creation and the Sabbath. I showed you such a connection and you reply by saying it's not for Christians. You say that there's no command to have corporate worship on the Sabbath and that it was only started after the exile. I show you a command from long before the exile to have corporate worship, and you reply by saying it's not for Christians. In both cases you totally avoid addressing the actual issue, which is that you were wrong in both cases. You just changed the subject. I don't think I'll bother with you any more.
The TOG
2.4: No Trolling. Do not make an inflammatory remark just to get a response. Address issues not personalities. Respect where people are in their spiritual walk, and respect all others in general. Respect where others are in their spiritual walk, do not disrupt the flow of discussion or act in a way that affects others negatively including when debating doctrinal issues, in the defense of the Christian faith, and in offering unwelcome spiritual advice. ADMIN
sourberry
Member
The teaching of Judaism is commandment driven, the teaching of Jesus Christ is not. Yet it is the same teaching.
Why rest? The jews would say - because we are told to. So you need to be told to. Right?
jasonc
Member
uhm jesus gave commands for he said" if ye love me, keep my commandments"
that is a type of torah. he gave them in simplicity. the first and second commandment of the torah by moses. but its a command that we must follow. we do so if are of him. it will come out. how do we love? we ask and pray to him to able to love
sourberry
Member
Commands were needed for people who did not understand what Jesus wanted from them. These people cannot do a perfect job yet. You see?
However, people who understand what needs to be done, do not need commands. They do the job in a perfect way.
jasonc
Member
right, sure, you love perfectly? you don't offend others? the commands are for us to remind us what we are called to be. otherwise why have the bible for the Christian and the Pauline command to study thyself to be approved by god? that means we do it to please him because we are his children. what child doesn't want to please his parents?
I have been saved over 18 years and I have yet to find myself loving man perfectly. the more I read the word. the more I find im in need of the blood atonement. that is what the torah is supposed to do. bring us back to the cross!