The Sabbath day was made for man, not man for the Sabbath

[RandyK]

You do know that the "greatest commandments" are also from the Torah, Jesus didn't invent them, right?

Yes, I do know that. I also know that much of the Moral Law that existed for Man from the beginning existed in the Law of Moses as well.

Here a lawyer asked Jesus the same question, and in this case the lawyer himself recited the "greatest commandments" from the written LAW, i.e. your so called "613 requirements", so of course the Old Covenant of Law is still in effect. NT is a new set of law, but more like RENEWED covenant - which Israel broke at Mount Sinai. "Fulfill" means perfect demonstration, not completion.

I can't agree with your characterization. I understand you believe the NT law is a "renewal" of the OT Law. But my view is that it covers some of the same territory but it a completely new and different contract.

Let's say I'm a landlord and make a contract with my tenants. The contract is for one year. At the end of the year I may make a new contract with much of the same provisions but with a higher rent and new requirements. It is then not the same contract as before, but a brand new contract. It may be, in a sense, a "renewal" of the former contract, but as a judge sees it it is an entirely separate contract.

The Law of Moses constitutes an original contractual agreement with Israel. If the nation, as a whole, follows the provisions of this Law the nation will be blessed by God. If there are a few sins and errors along the way the contract makes provision and recovery for that.

But if the sin is so egregious that it is viewed by the Heavenly Judge as being a violation of the contract provisions, the contract of Law is nullified.

And I believe that happened tentatively in the Babylonian Captivity because in some measure the contract continued. The temple, the priesthood, and the sacrifices failed because the people went into captivity. But laws were still being kept because the promise of restoration persevered.

But when the Law as a contract was ultimately renewed and later violated again in the time of Jesus' death, I don't believe the Law was perpetuated--not even in part. A new contract was made that was different no longer requiring priesthood, temple, or sacrifice. No promise of a recovery was given.

So even though the New Covenant carries some of the original moral law of the original contract it is not the same contract. That's how I view it.

I don't see having some of the original moral law in the New Covenant as a confirmation that it is the original Covenant, nor a recovery of it. It is entirely new so that Israel did not have to go back to an outmoded priesthood, temple worship, and animal sacrifice that at any rate never provided for its ultimate fulfillment in Eternal Life.

And the original Law was intended to prepare the way for Eternal Life and be fulfilled with that. The Law of Moses was always understood to be temporary, and merely a copy of the "Heavenly Temple."

The goal was not temporary residence in the Promised Land, but rather, a permanent residence in God's Kingdom. Therefore Christ brought a completely new contract that unlike the original contract would provide for that.

 

[Humblepie]

None of the Law but 9 of the original 10 are any longer in force.

Lol, only nine, excluding the 4th I assume.
I like discussion, I don't like it when it gets to abrasive.

Out of love for my fellow Christians I try to share the truth the Holy Spirit has led me to believe.
It actually is quite peaceful.

I am 60 years old, been a Christian my whole life, grew up in an Assembly of God, went to Christian schools, but I really started questioning the contradictions from OT to NT about 6 years ago.

Some call it Judicizing, others call it Hebrew roots movement, i call it the truth of the word. All scripture is truth,
The law never saved a soal in the OT
It will never save a soal today.
Thats not its purpose, its purpose is to expose sin and point us to the cross.

We both agree the way to Christ is through faith.

We just disagree on how to be obediant in our walk.

As Jesus stated, Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the Kingdom of Heaven; but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the Kingdom of Heaven.

He didn't say they lost their eternal life, only that they will be called least.

In Brotherhood.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Lol, only nine, excluding the 4th I assume.
I like discussion, I don't like it when it gets to abrasive.

Out of love for my fellow Christians I try to share the truth the Holy Spirit has led me to believe.
It actually is quite peaceful.

I am 60 years old, been a Christian my whole life, grew up in an Assembly of God, went to Christian schools, but I really started questioning the contradictions from OT to NT about 6 years ago.

Some call it Judicizing, others call it Hebrew roots movement, i call it the truth of the word. All scripture is truth,
The law never saved a soal in the OT
It will never save a soal today.
Thats not its purpose, its purpose is to expose sin and point us to the cross.

We both agree the way to Christ is through faith.

We just disagree on how to be obediant in our walk.

As Jesus stated, Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the Kingdom of Heaven; but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the Kingdom of Heaven.

He didn't say they lost their eternal life, only that they will be called least.

In Brotherhood.

You've got to be able to separate the words spoken to pre-reborn folks, from those who have cast off the flesh and walk in the Spirit instead of in the flesh.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Nevertheless, that is how I was using the term "Sabbath," as one of the 613 requirements of the Law of Moses.

That only reflects your seemingly antinomianist and antisemitic view without proper understanding.

I don't use the word "Sabbath" as a Labor issue, though it may have inspired it. For me, it was one of the 613 requirements of the Law of Moses. It is not, for me, "taking Leave" in a job.

You may argue the benefits of taking Leave during your employmet in a particular job. I agree--it is beneficial, and it may even be inspired by Sabbath Law for some. But for me, "Leave" is not "Sabbath observance."

You know, you're stuck with your rose tinted lens of "613 requirement", it's like your Maslow's hammer, and everything to you is like a nail, whether they're really a nail or not. Sabbath is the most detailed commandment among all ten, the first half is all about a rest from labor, not only you take a rest, your family, employees and strangers take a rest as well; translation in modern context, you don't get to kick your own workload to your workers or outsource it to independent contractors, you get the job done within the six days of labor. How is this not a labor issue?

And if you go back to the early chapter of Ex. 16, this work-rest pattern was already in practice for the Israelites, for six days they went out to gather manna in the wilderness, and on the seventh day there was none, and it lasted for 40 years, they had to literally "work for food" on every weekday, and they couldn't even hoard a large pile of manna since it spoiled overnight! The 4th commandment just codified it and explicitly explained the reason behind it - to commemorate the seventh day of creation when God rested.

Sabbath is never just one of "613 requirement" as you (mis)characterize it, believe it or not, it foreshadows the millennial kingdom, the 1000 reign of Christ, which would be the ultimate Sabbath rest for all mankind, but I guess that's far beyond your comprehension.

Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates. For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it. (Ex. 20:8-11)

Now it happened that some of the people went out on the seventh day to gather, but they found none. And the Lord said to Moses, “How long do you refuse to keep My commandments and My laws? See! For the Lord has given you the Sabbath; therefore He gives you on the sixth day bread for two days. Let every man remain in his place; let no man go out of his place on the seventh day.” So the people rested on the seventh day. (Ex. 16:27-30)

Undoubtedly there is some science to how much rest a person needs, and how much of a regular cycle it ideally is. But we have no Christian law determining what we must do to please God other than the need to be reasonably good to our bodies, which carry the presence and witness of the Lord.

I've told you this is not meant to be a "law" in the sense of civil law drafted by lobbyists, passed by congress, approved by the senate and signed by the president. It's an instruction that guides you to live in a natural and orderly way as God intended. Nobody's gonna excomminicate you or arrest you for violating this law, Paul said it already, "everything's lawful, but not everything's beneficial."

I've not been arguing against meeting together with other like-minded Christians. It is a place where we can give and get input from others, which we need for balance and socializing. I was arguing what Sabbath as a law meant to be, and what would be required if we try to live out a modern-day equivalent.

I agree that meeting together can be viewed as a modern day equivalent of a Sabbath "convocation." My point is that it is not actual "Sabbath observance" if we want to express it as accomodating a literal adherance to the Law of Moses. A NT gathering is not a Sabbath convocation. And we are not under OT Law.

You seem to want to find an OT precedent in order to justify that what we do in the NT is in accord with OT practices. I can't find anything wrong with that. All I'm saying is that nothing we do in the NT era is in any way "observing Sabbath Law" as I define it.

I don't understant why you're making such a big deal out of this and why you keep framing simple weekly rest and church attendance as "observing Sabbath Law" in such a resentful, grumpy way. It seems to me that you're like the self-righteous Harodians who had already been using denarius with Caesar's image and questioning Jesus whether it was lawful to pay taxes with this denarius. Isn't Jesus the Lord of Sabbath? Why does this have to be controversial?

You know, I've never seen anybody showing such level of outrage towards any real challenging issues like LGBTQ, fake climate change agenda, censorship against Christian teachings or the "prosperity gospel" trend everywhere, I don't see any thread actually addressing any of those; what should be controversial, nobody cares; what shouldn't be controversial such as Sabbath you make such long passionate argument and drag it on and on for twelve freaking pages, you spend all your mental capacity on these kinds of trivial theological differences and squabbling against your fellow brothers and sisters, that is such a disappointment. Where's the wisdom of discernment?

 

[Humblepie]

-

.

.

I say this in love brothers, not to judge.


We have all read these verses many times, we all say That couldn't be me.

It you go back to Original writing in Greek you will learn something that may not settle well with your soal, I urge you to at least pray about it.

The very last word in these verses doesn't really carry the weight it does in Greek.

You may have never studied it.

I pray you will not flat out reject it without at least looking for yourself.



The word iniquity.

In Greek.

You can Google it.

What's the Greek word for without.
Answer: A


What's the Greek word for Torah
Answer: Nomos

What's the Greek word for iniquity
Answer: Anamosa

Anomos means WITHOUT TORAH.

Animos is the Greek word for iniquity.





Matt 7:22-23

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.


23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that are without Torah.

 

[RandyK]

That only reflects your seemingly antinomianist and antisemitic view without proper understanding.

I was under the impression you wanted to create unity among Christians? I'm neither "antinomian" nor "antisemitic."

You know, you're stuck with your rose tinted lens of "613 requirement", it's like your Maslow's hammer, and everything to you is like a nail, whether they're really a nail or not. Sabbath is the most detailed commandment among all ten, the first half is all about a rest from labor, not only you take a rest, your family, employees and strangers take a rest as well; translation in modern context, you don't get to kick your own workload to your workers or outsource it to independent contractors, you get the job done within the six days of labor. How is this not a labor issue?

It seems you're not addressing the real argument, which is that any "modern equivalent in Sabbath Law" is not really a "Sabbath Law" at all? I'm all for labor rights--I just don't consider it to be anything related to "Sabbath law."

And if you go back to the early chapter of Ex. 16, this work-rest pattern was already in practice for the Israelites, for six days they went out to gather manna in the wilderness, and on the seventh day there was none, and it lasted for 40 years, they had to literally "work for food" on every weekday, and they couldn't even hoard a large pile of manna since it spoiled overnight! The 4th commandment just codified it and explicitly explained the reason behind it - to commemorate the seventh day of creation when God rested.

What's your point? Sabbath Law had a start in the Wilderness.

Sabbath is never just one of "613 requirement" as you (mis)characterize it, believe it or not, it foreshadows the millennial kingdom, the 1000 reign of Christ, which would be the ultimate Sabbath rest for all mankind, but I guess that's far beyond your comprehension.

Yes, and I'm also aware of the Millennial Day theory. That has nothing to do with Sabbath Law. It is a pattern that God can use as He wishes, the same way the Bible may use the number 12 to refer to the 12 tribes of Israel. But communicating by pattern is not Sabbath Law. The incidence of a 7th "day" Millennium is, for example, not a "law."

I've told you this is not meant to be a "law" in the sense of civil law drafted by lobbyists, passed by congress, approved by the senate and signed by the president. It's an instruction that guides you to live in a natural and orderly way as God intended. Nobody's gonna excomminicate you or arrest you for violating this law, Paul said it already, "everything's lawful, but not everything's beneficial."

I don't see Sabbath Law as "instruction" either. It is not instructing us to follow a "natural law" either. There is nothing in nature requiring us to keep to a specific daily or weekly schedule.

The Sabbath Law is indeed a "law" under the Old Covenant, though not under the New Covenant. It does not convey any Natural Law outside of our natural physical need to rest.

The pattern is not indicative of what we need physically, but only a religious pattern referencing God's days of creation and the rest that followed. In other words, it is a reflection of an end-goal rather than a pattern indicating how often we physically need rest.

If you don't wish to discuss this, or if it seems too "hostile" to you, simply stop replying. As long as you make public statements that appear unbiblical to me, I will try to respond according to my conscience. This covers *any* issue, small or big as you may see it.

 

[RandyK]

Anomos means WITHOUT TORAH.
Animos is the Greek word for iniquity.

I know what "antinomianism" is. It is not "lawless" in the sense of being under the New Covenant, and without the Law of Moses. The New Covenant contains the essential morality of the Law of Moses without all of the rituals and ceremonies, without all of the symbolism that pointed to Christ. Moral Law remains within the New Covenant, and thus Christianity is *not* "antinomianism."

 

[Humblepie]

I know what "antinomianism"

And I know what iniquity means in Matthew 7

It means without Torah.

This is in the future, at judgment.

There isn't a second chance at this point.


It's a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.


These people truly thought they were Christians, they knew they were saved.

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. (without Torah)


Take it lightly if you wish.

 

[RandyK]

And I know what iniquity means in Matthew 7

It means without Torah.

This is in the future, at judgment.

There isn't a second chance at this point.


It's a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.


These people truly thought they were Christians, they knew they were saved.

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. (without Torah)


Take it lightly if you wish.

You should not take lightly NT Theology which indicates that the Old Law of Moses is outdated, and we are now under a New Covenant that exclusively is able to give you Eternal Salvation. I am indeed proudly without the Law of Moses because unless I am, then I'm not a recipient of Eternal Life, which came only through Christ, whose New Covenant alone gives me that guarantee.

Gal 4.17 Those people are zealous to win you over, but for no good. What they want is to alienate you from us, so that you may have zeal for them. 18 It is fine to be zealous, provided the purpose is good, and to be so always, not just when I am with you. 19 My dear children, for whom I am again in the pains of childbirth until Christ is formed in you, 20 how I wish I could be with you now and change my tone, because I am perplexed about you!
21 Tell me, you who want to be under the law, are you not aware of what the law says?

 

[Humblepie]

I don't see Sabbath Law as "instruction" either.

The Torah literally means instruction. In the end, I don't think it matters how "you" see it, It only matters how God sees it

 

[RandyK]

The Torah literally means instruction. In the end, I don't think it matters how "you" see it, It only matters how God sees it

Yes, all that matters is how God sees things--we agree on that. The Torah, as we're defining the word, is not just that it means "instruction." Much more, it is a specific covenant system that according to Christians has lapsed. It was primarily for Israel, and not for other nations, unless they happened to be wandering through the land. The Passover, for example, celebrated Israel's coming out of Egypt, and had nothing to do with how other nations came to be.

 

[Humblepie]

You should not take lightly NT Theology which indicates that the Old Law of Moses is outdated, and we are now under a New Covenant

Can you please point that part out in Jeremiah's description of exactly what the new covenant is?

You can copy and paste it please.


31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:

33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

35 Thus saith the Lord, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The Lord of hosts is his name:

36 If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the Lord, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.

37 Thus saith the Lord; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the Lord

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

I was under the impression you wanted to create unity among Christians? I'm neither "antinomian" nor "antisemitic."

Then why complicating and obsessing over a day of rest? Why are you following the pharisees' example, as they obnoxiously questioned and challenged Jesus's practices on Sabbath? You know, even in Orthodox Judaism, attending emergencies, especially in case of saving lives, is prioritized, and that's exactly what Jesus was doing - healing the sick. He ridiculued the Pharisses for all talk and no action.

It seems you're not addressing the real argument, which is that any "modern equivalent in Sabbath Law" is not really a "Sabbath Law" at all? I'm all for labor rights--I just don't consider it to be anything related to "Sabbath law."

I've addressed this before - if there's no "modern equivalent", then the bible is an irrelevant ancient book, there's no reason for any of us to read and study it. As long as the word of God is living and active, "modern equivalent" is the raison d'etre for this entire discussion, it's related to the Sabbath law in each and every way. The way I see it, Sunday service has moved the Sabbath from Saturday to Sunday, the rest from regular job and the holy convocation, according to the description of the 4th commandment, are essentially the same, it's simply a schedule change.

What's your point? Sabbath Law had a start in the Wilderness.

The point is that Sabbath was already in practice BEFORE it was signed into "law". Sabbath had a start in the wilderness, Sabbath LAW did NOT until Moses received the two tablets.

Yes, and I'm also aware of the Millennial Day theory. That has nothing to do with Sabbath Law. It is a pattern that God can use as He wishes, the same way the Bible may use the number 12 to refer to the 12 tribes of Israel. But communicating by pattern is not Sabbath Law. The incidence of a 7th "day" Millennium is, for example, not a "law."

It's not jsut about the number, there's a substantial connection between the regular weekly rest and the millennial rest for all mankind, the end was declared from the beginning. See this is why I said it's "beyond your comprehension".

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

If you don't wish to discuss this, or if it seems too "hostile" to you, simply stop replying. As long as you make public statements that appear unbiblical to me, I will try to respond according to my conscience. This covers *any* issue, small or big as you may see it.

It's not "hostile" to me, I abhor the religious label you put on Sabbath and your false accusation of me demanding strict observance of a "law" which wasn't originally legislated as a "law" at all. In my conscience, Sabbath is a labor and a spiritual issue, a labor issue regarding the rest from work, a spiritual issue regarding the commemoration of God's rest. It's a natural way God intends us to live, hence "Sabbath day was made for man", it doesn't Judaize me or identify me in any particular capacity that makes me different from everybody else. You deliberately made it into a religious issue for no obvious reason. You can't see it from any other perspective.

 

[JLB]

I say this in love brothers, not to judge.


We have all read these verses many times, we all say That couldn't be me.

It you go back to Original writing in Greek you will learn something that may not settle well with your soal, I urge you to at least pray about it.

The very last word in these verses doesn't really carry the weight it does in Greek.

You may have never studied it.

I pray you will not flat out reject it without at least looking for yourself.



The word iniquity.

In Greek.

You can Google it.

What's the Greek word for without.
Answer: A


What's the Greek word for Torah
Answer: Nomos

What's the Greek word for iniquity
Answer: Anamosa

Anomos means WITHOUT TORAH.

Animos is the Greek word for iniquity.





Matt 7:22-23

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.


23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that are without Torah.

What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was appointed through angels by the hand of a mediator.
Galatians 3:19

Paul asks this question -

• What purpose then does the law serve?

Paul answers the question-
It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come…

My question to you -
Has the Seed come?


By saying “until” the Holy Spirit is indicating the law of Moses was temporary; (in force until the Seed should come.)


Christians are not without law. We are not under the law of Moses, we are under grace; the law of Christ.

The law of Christ is stricter because we have a new divine nature that is compatible with the leading of the Holy Spirit.

 

[eddif]

To finish quote just to add context.

Luke 16:17-18

17 And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail.

18 Whosoever putteth away his wife, and marrieth another, committeth adultery: and whosoever marrieth her that is put away from her husband committeth adultery.

The kingdom of God can be preached as well as the law, because the law was never meant to save anyone, ever, it was to define sin, it was an instruction on HOW to live righteously, not to make you righteous.

Remember without the law sin is not imputed. So if there isn't a law to impute sin, there isn't a need for salvation after the cross.
I can't believe that for a second.

I need a Saviour because I am a sinner.

Romans 7:7-8
7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.

Oh well
I thought I gave the time context regarding the Law of Moses (The Schoolmaster till Christ did come).

Mississippi redneck
eddif

 

[JLB]

Dog feces is not food

You seem desperate.

Your “argument” here is almost as bad as the one you tried make concerning the “handwriting” of requirements being wiped in which you tried to convince us that referred to the oral law.

Why would anyone say dog feces is food.


Again, here is what scripture teaches -

Every moving thing that lives shall be food for you. I have given you all things, even as the green herbs. Genesis 9:3

Every moving thing that lives shall be food for you.


I don’t believe dog feces is a moving thing that lives.

 

[Humblepie]

Why would anyone say dog feces is food.

Why would anyone call pig or shrimp food

 

[Humblepie]

Every moving thing that lives shall be food for you.


I don’t believe dog feces is a moving thing that lives.

I didn't say that when discussing Noah. I said I would ask God when I see him.

 

[JLB]

Why would anyone call pig or shrimp food

Because it aligns with God’s word.

Every moving thing that lives shall be food for you. I have given you all things, even as the green herbs. Genesis 9:3