Bible Study The Second Death

[The Poly Grip Kid]

Re the Second Death
The Revelarion of the Lord Yeshua to the apostle John explains the second death ans who will suffer the second death and the place where the dead will be placed after they are Judged.
Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
Rev 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
Rev 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

 

[About the Son of God]

...The question must arise and be answer that is, much, like the question Nicodemus asks in John 3 but instead of being Born a second time it is how can a man die two deaths? Here is that lesson from the creation story, we, the creations of God are made in the image of God.

That's very simple. Death is a transformation. One can die to themselves, they can also die to Christ, they can also die in the flesh, or in the spirit.

Even Nature, from which we can reason to God, from, teaches us that some deaths are in order to start a new life.
for: A seed can die and corrupt, but also a seed can die in germination to produce a plant ; the seed body is no more, but a growing plant comes from the seed.

John 12:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die (απο-θαν-η), it abideth alone: but if it die , it bringeth forth much fruit.

And yes, I agree: The second death was spoken of very clearly in Genesis, at least in the Greek, right after talking about man being the image of God -- and it literally SAYS the word 'death' -- twice:

Genesis 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and porn, you-all shall eat from it not: for in the day that you-all eat thereof you-all shalt die continually from death, yourself.
Genes 2:17 απο δε του ξυλου του γινωσκειν καλον και πονηρον ου φαγ-εσθε απ' αυτου η δ' αν ημερα φαγ-ητε απ' αυτου θανατω απο-θαν-εισθε

Note: If you check the modern Hebrew, beware of Strong's numbers. The word "surely" is a lame translation -- for anyone who checks a concordance realizes that the same word is suddenly translated "crying" in 1Samuel 2:1 -- when the sentence in the KJV reads "after the death of Saul." The word translated "surely" actually means death for a sin, or crime; and is never said of someone who dies nobly eg: unless they publicly worshipped a false god, or breaking god's law in a way deserving of death, or are the child of adultery condemned by their mother's conceiving in sin. ( Psalm 51:5 , 2Samuel 12:14 ).

So -- the word translated "surely" from Hebrew, actually means a death *sentence*. eg: Dying as a death sentence.

Next: Please Note, In Genesis 2:17 When God gave the law, he spoke the word "you" in the plural; and yet the woman had not been created. That is exactly why the serpent could say something very subtle to the woman, for he said to HER surely you-all will not die. The serpent was questioning if the woman was under the law, but the man and someone else clearly WERE under the law even before the woman was created. That's why I think the sentence in Genesis 3:22 does not read that he has become like "all of us", or "us", but rather it makes a distinction: "for he has become like [the] one of us, to know good and evil."

But God, is all good -- not evil. Therefore, he himself, does not know (by doing) evil and does not lie.

That's why I think there were also clearly others around when God gave the law to Adam, other's who shared in God's image -- eg: at least they did before they sinned and fell from heaven... and got renamed Satans, and devils, and received a death sentence:

Job 1:6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.
Job 1:7 And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.

Psalm 82:6-7 ( it says like man, rather than as any other man... so it does imply they are not men, but 'gods'. )

So this thing you've been asking, and talking about, eg: The second death;
That's clearly the condemned man's death -- and just as clearly a death of perpetual corruption.

It's no coincidence, that the Serpent which is something visually similar to a worm -- is cursed by God in the very same scriptures where two death are first mentioned -- is cursed to act forver like a composting worm: Genesis 3:14
For Satan brought death to man, and he who began corrupting man is left to finish him off by making man's body rot: Genesis 3:19 (May the angels preserve god's faithful one's bodies from being turned over to Satan, Jude 1:9 )
Job 24:19-20

God tells us over and over, throughout scripture the same idea; union with the devil, is union with a worm:
Isaiah 66:24, Mark 9:44, Mark 9:46, Mark 9:48

As for the rest.... the normal thing to do for completed corruption, is to try to sterilize it with fire; a fire to cleanse it.
That's what "Gehenna" was historically, a garbage dump where the Israelites burned garbage to get rid of the stench.

 

[About the Son of God]

Errata: Sorry a l was a little dyslexic in copying a verse number,eg: that was was supposed to cite: 2Samuel 1:1 "after the death of Saul". NOT 1Samuel 2:1
The same word transliterated from Hebrew, מות (mOwt / Strongs #4191) , is used back in Genesis to claim you will "surely" die -- but in 2Samuel 1:1 it is translated "death".

http://biblehub.com/interlinear/genesis/2-17.htm
http://www.studylight.org/interlinear-bible/2-samuel/1-1.html
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2 Samuel 1:1-10&version=KJV

 

[th1b.taylor]

That's very simple. Death is a transformation. One can die to themselves, they can also die to Christ, they can also die in the flesh, or in the spirit.

Even Nature, from which we can reason to God, from, teaches us that some deaths are in order to start a new life.
for: A seed can die and corrupt, but also a seed can die in germination to produce a plant ; the seed body is no more, but a growing plant comes from the seed.

John 12:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die (απο-θαν-η), it abideth alone: but if it die , it bringeth forth much fruit.

And yes, I agree: The second death was spoken of very clearly in Genesis, at least in the Greek, right after talking about man being the image of God -- and it literally SAYS the word 'death' -- twice:

Genesis 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and porn, you-all shall eat from it not: for in the day that you-all eat thereof you-all shalt die continually from death, yourself.
Genes 2:17 απο δε του ξυλου του γινωσκειν καλον και πονηρον ου φαγ-εσθε απ' αυτου η δ' αν ημερα φαγ-ητε απ' αυτου θανατω απο-θαν-εισθε

Note: If you check the modern Hebrew, beware of Strong's numbers. The word "surely" is a lame translation -- for anyone who checks a concordance realizes that the same word is suddenly translated "crying" in 1Samuel 2:1 -- when the sentence in the KJV reads "after the death of Saul." The word translated "surely" actually means death for a sin, or crime; and is never said of someone who dies nobly eg: unless they publicly worshipped a false god, or breaking god's law in a way deserving of death, or are the child of adultery condemned by their mother's conceiving in sin. ( Psalm 51:5 , 2Samuel 12:14 ).

So -- the word translated "surely" from Hebrew, actually means a death *sentence*. eg: Dying as a death sentence.

Next: Please Note, In Genesis 2:17 When God gave the law, he spoke the word "you" in the plural; and yet the woman had not been created. That is exactly why the serpent could say something very subtle to the woman, for he said to HER surely you-all will not die. The serpent was questioning if the woman was under the law, but the man and someone else clearly WERE under the law even before the woman was created. That's why I think the sentence in Genesis 3:22 does not read that he has become like "all of us", or "us", but rather it makes a distinction: "for he has become like [the] one of us, to know good and evil."

But God, is all good -- not evil. Therefore, he himself, does not know (by doing) evil and does not lie.

That's why I think there were also clearly others around when God gave the law to Adam, other's who shared in God's image -- eg: at least they did before they sinned and fell from heaven... and got renamed Satans, and devils, and received a death sentence:

Job 1:6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.
Job 1:7 And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.

Psalm 82:6-7 ( it says like man, rather than as any other man... so it does imply they are not men, but 'gods'. )

So this thing you've been asking, and talking about, eg: The second death;
That's clearly the condemned man's death -- and just as clearly a death of perpetual corruption.

It's no coincidence, that the Serpent which is something visually similar to a worm -- is cursed by God in the very same scriptures where two death are first mentioned -- is cursed to act forver like a composting worm: Genesis 3:14
For Satan brought death to man, and he who began corrupting man is left to finish him off by making man's body rot: Genesis 3:19 (May the angels preserve god's faithful one's bodies from being turned over to Satan, Jude 1:9 )
Job 24:19-20

God tells us over and over, throughout scripture the same idea; union with the devil, is union with a worm:
Isaiah 66:24, Mark 9:44, Mark 9:46, Mark 9:48

As for the rest.... the normal thing to do for completed corruption, is to try to sterilize it with fire; a fire to cleanse it.
That's what "Gehenna" was historically, a garbage dump where the Israelites burned garbage to get rid of the stench.

You are not making any sense. We are discussing the death of a man. The natural man cannot die twice, impossible and as explained above the Spiritual death is never ending. The long and the short of the matter is do you believe God? God has explained the Second Death and now it is a case of where is your faith.

 

[The Poly Grip Kid]

You are not making any sense. We are discussing the death of a man. The natural man cannot die twice, impossible and as explained above the Spiritual death is never ending. The long and the short of the matter is do you believe God? God has explained the Second Death and now it is a case of where is your faith.

Well with the exception of Lazerus and a couple of others Yeshua raised from the dead during His earthly Ministry and the numerous doccumented cases of people being pronounced as clinically dead which the spiritual death is the second death no matter how many times a person is pronounced clinically dead you are spot on however his post does make sense but is not applicable to the topic of this particular discussion However I did find the Hebraic and Greek word study enlightening.

 

[About the Son of God]

Where did the OP say that we were talking only about the "natural" man dying ?

The title was about the second death, and right there in Genesis where I pointed to it -- is where a double death is first defined in the bible.

As far as dying at least twice, I mean, come on and read the Gospels guys! -- God does says he will destroy "body AND soul" in hell... Matthew 10:28.

Some people must get more sleep in church than is safe for their spiritual health, because that sentence in Matthew is probably one of the more memorable sentences I have heard even when half asleep...

In the second death, I'm pretty sure that God means the body as well as the soul is included in "dying" twice.

 

[The Poly Grip Kid]

Where did the OP say that we were talking only about the "natural" man dying ?

The title was about the second death, and right there in Genesis where I pointed to it -- is where a double death is first defined in the bible.

As far as dying at least twice, I mean, come on and read the Gospels guys! -- God does says he will destroy "body AND soul" in hell... Matthew 10:28.

Some people must get more sleep in church than is safe for their spiritual health, because that sentence in Matthew is probably one of the more memorable sentences I have heard even when half asleep...

In the second death, I'm pretty sure that God means the body as well as the soul is included in "dying" twice.

Mr taylor is the OP and this is his thread.
The second death can only occur unless the person Rejects Yeshua as their Messiah the first death must occur before the occurrence of the second death which that sentence is passed to all who have rejected the Messiah Yeshua at the great throne judgement ( death of the physical body) and the second death (the death of ones eternal soul) is two separate events. The first death, (the death of our created body born into sin) and because of the first sin Adam committed we are All doomed to suffer the first death of the physical body of the flesh man. when we accept Yeshua as our Lord and Savior we have eternal life and after the physical death of the corruptible flesh man we will one day receive a permanent glorified body whatever that body may be is one of those mysterys I know we will not be made of flesh because flesh is corruptible and our spirit man will put on incorruptible. those spirits/souls who stand before the Great throne of Judgement will be thrown into the lake of fire where their soul will be forever tormented. this is the second death. the death of the soul ( the Spirit Man) which the physical body (the Physical Man) would be long since dispatched back to the earth. if I need to provide scripture I can do that but everything I said is Biblical based. I am pressed for time and dont have the time to pull up all the scripture. but the second death is well explained in the Revelation of the Christ to the Apostle John in chapter 20

 

[th1b.taylor]

Well with the exception of Lazerus and a couple of others Yeshua raised from the dead during His earthly Ministry and the numerous doccumented cases of people being pronounced as clinically dead which the spiritual death is the second death no matter how many times a person is pronounced clinically dead you are spot on however his post does make sense but is not applicable to the topic of this particular discussion However I did find the Hebraic and Greek word study enlightening.

Alright but as you said, his post makes no sense here except we believe him to be trolling, he appears to have sought to hijack the string and that, even today, is not nice.

 

[About the Son of God]

Mr taylor is the OP and this is his thread.

Mr Taylor wrote the OP, yes -- but that doesn't make him the OP. It gives him the right to steer it.
At the time I wrote to him, he hadn't said anything about the "natural man" -- so I clearly wasn't trolling.
I was answering the question as he wrote it. eg: I'm not a mind reader.

The second death can only occur unless the person Rejects Yeshua as their Messiah the first death must occur before the occurrence of the second death which that sentence is passed to all who have rejected the Messiah Yeshua at the great throne judgement ( death of the physical body) and the second death (the death of ones eternal soul) is two separate events.

I see no problem with your reasoning but that's only if we take the bible to mean that it is two consecutive deaths, rather than just two kinds of deaths ; and the second death is restricted to the spirit; but it's strange that you say "eternal" (which generally means undying and unchanging) and soul together. Did you mean eternal death of the soul, rather than eternal soul dying?

I'm really not certain about the assumptions that have been made in this thread so far...

As far as I know: The second death requires only one thing: that the person has a body which has solely eaten of the tree of knowledge of Good and Evil. For God said in Genesis that in the day you [all] have eaten of it, that you-all will die from death. (eg: two deaths). That's why I think the second death from God will not come to pass until the last man has been born physically. eg: The end of the world will come on the day "you-ALL" (Genesis 2:17 ) have a body which has eaten from that tree, in agreement with the Lord's death sentence. eg: Not when just Adam had eaten from it ; but when all his children's bodies have come into existence in their own right.

If Taylor believes, and you too -- that the two deaths are separate events; then I would merely think that God prophesied two different events at once when he told Adam what would happen when he (as a plural group of people) had finally eaten from the tree; eg: God was speaking about the future, because the warning was given before Eve was created, and while Adam was a single man -- so the warning is not restricted to just Adam and Eve, but extends to everything that could ever be called "you-all" in union with Adam.

The first death, (the death of our created body born into sin) and because of the first sin Adam committed we are All doomed to suffer the first death of the physical body of the flesh man.

OK. In general what you say is true, but bear in mind that Paul tells us explicitly that there are extreme cases, and so I know from Paul that not all will have died the first death before the final Judgment of Christ, Jesus.

when we accept Yeshua as our Lord and Savior we have eternal life and after the physical death of the corruptible flesh man we will one day receive a permanent glorified body whatever that body may be is one of those mysterys I know we will not be made of flesh because flesh is corruptible and our spirit man will put on incorruptible.

That sounds lke a paraphrase? eg: 1Corinthians 15:53, Although Paul actually talks about two separate types of changes; the mortal putting on immortality, and the perishable (corruptible) putting on incorruptibility. Not just one change.

Paul also says, 1Corinthians 15:51, that not all men will be asleep/dead when Jesus' decides to end the world; eg: I mean that Paul proves that not all men's flesh will have rotted in the grave when the world ends, and therefore Paul proves that some people will be judged without ever having experienced the first death.

But Judgment before a first death has another implication -- for according to scripture, the vast majority of people who have not yet died on the day when Jesus ends the world will reject God and suffer the second death; therefore, they must die the second death even though they never suffered the 1st death before then. eg: When the son of God comes, will he find faith? -- all who are not written in the book of life are cast into the fire.

But, beside that *minor* detail, I agree with you -- we will receive flesh from Jesus that is imperishable, and as a spiritual man we will have a quickening (life giving) spirit with which to keep that flesh perpetually alive. The spirit of Adam is incapable of keeping the flesh from rotting, but the spirit of Christ can keep the flesh alive indefinitely. That's why I think Jesus said, even while he was still in the flesh -- that "I am the resurrection"; for he is the very source of that life giving spirit, and even the flesh, in himself. John 11:24-26, John 5:26, it is indeed mysterious; but Jesus' body never rotted, ever.

those spirits/souls who stand before the Great throne of Judgement will be thrown into the lake of fire where their soul will be forever tormented. this is the second death. the death of the soul ( the Spirit Man)

Hmmm ... Scripture does not say the soul is only the spirit, at least not that I can find? So.. how did you arrive at that idea, is it from scripture that I missed -- or is it an assumption? I'm actually in another thread here in bible study where it's becoming quite obvious that we can show from scripture that a soul has a spirit, but also that what is called a "soul", clearly still includes people with bodies; for the soul is either that which joins spirit and body together into one united person, or else it may be viewed as the state of a man where spirit and body are one, AKA. where the spirit is powerful enough to animate the body. But: When a person dies, and if we assume the spirit is separated from body -- that's no longer a "soul", but a dis-embodied spirit and a corpse. The unity called 'soul' (when unity is thought of as a 'thing') can be destroyed and when that happens, man becomes incomplete. 1Thesalonians 5:23

which the physical body (the Physical Man) would be long since dispatched back to the earth. if I need to provide scripture I can do that but everything I said is Biblical based. I am pressed for time and dont have the time to pull up all the scripture. but the second death is well explained in the Revelation of the Christ to the Apostle John in chapter 20

OK. I'll read John chapter 20, and see what it says. Perhaps that will clarify what you said.