The "Secret Rapture" - What You Should Know

[herald]

MARTIN LUTHER: "nothing else than the kingdom of Babylon and of very Antichrist...For who is the man of sin and the son of perdition, but he who by his teaching and his ordinances increases the sin and perdition of souls in the church; while he yet sits in the church as if he were God? All these conditions have now for many ages been fulfilled by the papal tyranny." Martin Luther, First Principles, pp. 196, 197.

JOHN CALVIN: " I deny him to be the vicar of Christ, who, in furiously persecuting the gospel, demonstrates by his conduct that he is Antichrist--I deny him to be the successor of Peter...I deny him to be the head of the church." "Some persons think us too severe and censorious when we call the Roman Pontiff Antichrist. But those who are of this opinion do not consider that they bring the same charge of presumption against Paul, himself, after whom we speak and whose language we adopt...I shall briefly show that (Paul's words in 2 Thessalonians 2), are not capable of any other interpretation than that which applies to the Papacy." John Calvin, Tracts, Vol. 1, pp. 219, 220. John Calvin, Institutes.

JOHN WYCLIF: "Why is it necessary in unbelief to look for another Antichrist? Hence in the seventh chapter of Daniel, Antichrist is forcefully described by a horn arising in the time of the 4th kingdom. For it grew from [among] our powerful ones, more horrible, more cruel, and more greedy, because by reckoning the pagans and our Christians by name, a lesser [greater?] struggle for the temporals is not recorded in any preceding time...and the horn has arisen from the ten horns, having eyes and a mouth speaking great things against the Most High, and thinking that he is able to change times and laws." (Daniel 7:8,25 quoted)..."For so our clergy foresee the lord pope, as it is said of the eighth blaspheming little head." Translated from Wyclif's De Veritate Sacrae Scripturae, Vol.3, pp.262,263.

There are similar statements made by John Wesley, William Tyndale, King James, John Knox, Phillip Melanchthon, Huldreich Zwingli, and, almost eighty other pre and post Reformers. Many of whom, paid with their lives for such statements.

After, these men focused the fulfillment of prophecy upon the office of the Papacy, the church commissioned a Jesuit priest, named Ribera, to come up with an alternative interpretation of prophecy. He invented the "Secret Rapture" theory, which, does not appear in the Scripture. (He, also, came up with the rebuilding of the Jerusalem temple, even though, Jesus and the Apostle Paul, made it clear, that, the believing Jews and Gentiles, are now His temple upon the earth. John 2:19-21; 1 Cor 3:16; 2 Cor 6:16; Eph 2:21.) The "Secret Rapture" was picked up by Darby, and, later, by Scofield, who incorporated it into his Bible notes. In the late '60s, Scofield's Bible was very popular with Evangelicals, and they ran with this interpretation.

"But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; IN THE WHICH the heavens shall pass away with a GREAT NOISE, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up." 2 Peter 3:10.

As we can see from this verse, His coming will be, neither, secret nor silent, but, the end of the world, as we know it. Please compare this verse with the seventh plague, found in Revelation 16:17-21.

What did Jesus prophesy, concerning His coming?

"For THEN shall be Great Tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, nor ever shall be...Immediately AFTER the tribulation of those days, shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: and THEN shall appear the sign of the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory." Matthew 24:21-35.

Jesus said, that, He is coming AFTER The Great Tribulation. Should we fear? The seven last plagues, mimic the Ten Plagues in Egypt. Were God's people kept from His wrath? Were Noah and his family kept safe, during the Great Flood? Yes! He is able to keep us through tribulation.

So, why did the New Testament saints look for His coming? Because, Pagan Rome persecuted Jesus, the Christians and the Jews. The Roman Emperors gave their power, seat and authority (Revelations 13:2) to the Bishop of Rome. Papal Rome murdered and tortured millions of Christians. One final time, the "Harlot and her daughters" (the apostate Catholic/Protestant religious system, as seen in Revelation 17) will persecute His remnant people.

It's, always, been about Rome.

 

[lecoop]

Well, that is one man's opinion.

Coop

 

[MrVersatile48]

2 Thessalonians 2 speaks both of many antichrists in the spirit of antichrist, & of the ultimate Beast Antichrist, the worst global tyrant ever

Also, in Revelation 13, that first Beast is the political world ruler

The 2nd Beast, the religious ruler who brings to life the statue of the first Beast, leads the apostate, occult-dominated, Rome-based Great Whore of Revelation 17-18, persecuting the true Bride of Christ

The instant airlift Rapture rescue of all who love Jesus, before the worst time ever, is in Matthew 24:30-42, 1 Corinthians 15:51-58 & 1 Thessalonians 4:13-5:11

That is where we are changed in the twinkling of an eye to meet the Lord in the air & be forever with Him

Then is poured out the wrath of God - which God promises in 1 Thess 5 we are not destined to go through

Only after the horrors of Revelation 6, 8, 9, 13 etc does Christ return to Earth in Revelation 16 to slaughter Antichrist's world armies for daring to invade His Holy Land & attack His Holy City - as in Daniel 7, Joel 3 & Zechariah 14

When my Bible College theology professor said that the Rapture was invented by Larry Norman, I said, "Excuse me: the Bible didn't do a bad job"

Jesus said His return would be as in the days of Noah & Lot

Both times, warnings were given @ coming destruction

Both times, believers were removed to safety before that destruction came

All those Scriptures are printed in this Rapture thread:-

http://www.christianforums.net/viewtopic.php?t=26116

Ian

 

[Zero Link]

Hey Mr. Versatile48! ^_^

I think you forgot something.


1 Thessalonians 5

1Now, brothers, about times and dates we do not need to write to you, 2for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. 3While people are saying, "Peace and safety," destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.

Lets break that down.

1Now, brothers, about times and dates we do not need to write to you, 2for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. 3While people are saying, "Peace and safety,"
(hmm, doesn't really seem like the great tribulation (second half of 3 1/2 years) will be "Peace and Saftey".. But before the great tribulation starts, people will be repeating "Peace and Saftey" because they will want peace and saftey, and they will think they are getting peace and safety... but it will be false peace)
destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.

But then again:

4But you, brothers, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief. 5You are all sons of the light and sons of the day. We do not belong to the night or to the darkness. 6So then, let us not be like others, who are asleep, but let us be alert and self-controlled. 7For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk, get drunk at night. 8But since we belong to the day, let us be self-controlled, putting on faith and love as a breastplate, and the hope of salvation as a helmet. 9For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.

sounds like we will go through the wrath, but we shall recieve salvation.

 

[lecoop]

...
Lets break that down.

1Now, brothers, about times and dates we do not need to write to you, 2for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. 3While people are saying, "Peace and safety,"

(hmm, doesn't really seem like the great tribulation (second half of 3 1/2 years) will be "Peace and Saftey".. But before the great tribulation starts, people will be repeating "Peace and Saftey" because they will want peace and saftey, and they will think they are getting peace and safety... but it will be false peace)
destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape..

Hmmm: How long before the "GT" will they be saying "peace and safety?" How about 3 1/2 years before? Why? Paul's subject here is the "day of the Lord." It is just before the start of the day of the Lord that people will be calling for "peace and safety."

So how does the "day of the Lord," and this time of intense persecution (GT) relate to each other? Actually, this time of great persecution is inside or contained in the day of the Lord. In other words, the day of the Lord starts with the 7th seal (right after the rapture of the saints at the 6th seal) and about 3 1/2 years later, the abomination event occurs, right at the midpoint of the week. This time of great persecution will start at the midpoint, and go from there, during the second half of the 70th week of Daniel. Therefore, the "Day of the Lord," and the 70th week of Daniel start together at the 7th seal. This time of great persecution will be shortened (it won't go the entire 42 months) by God pouring out the vials of His wrath with the plagues. The persecution will stop, while the beast is preparing for Armageddon, and finally, the 70th week stops with the 7th vial. However, the Day of the Lord, continues right on to and through the battle of Armageddon. Therefore, both the "GT" and the 70th week of Daniel are inside the day of the Lord.

So where is the "Peace and safety?" The beast will be building His war machine and Israel will be seeking peace. The 7 year peace agreement will be signed on earth, when the 7th seal is broken in heaven. This cry for "peace and safety" will be taking place up to the peace agreement. After it is signed, the people will think that they will have peace. (This peace will be shattered at the abomination event about 3 1/2 years later.) The crying for peace, then, will be up until the start of the 70th week of Daniel and the day of the Lord.

But then again:

Quote:
4But you, brothers, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief. 5You are all sons of the light and sons of the day. We do not belong to the night or to the darkness. 6So then, let us not be like others, who are asleep, but let us be alert and self-controlled. 7For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk, get drunk at night. 8But since we belong to the day, let us be self-controlled, putting on faith and love as a breastplate, and the hope of salvation as a helmet. 9For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.


sounds like we will go through the wrath, but we shall recieve salvation

Why does this sound like we will go through the wrath? All Paul is saying is that we will not be caught by surprise by the "day of the Lord," as the world will be. Why will we not be caught by surprise? Two reasons: one, we will know approximately when the rapture will take place, by revelation knowledge. Second, we will be caught up into the air, at the time that the people are seeing the signs of the start of the day of the Lord. They will be crying for the rocks to fall on them, while we will be on the way to heaven! They will be partaking in God's wrath, while we will escape.

Coop

 

[herald]

The idea, that, the Tribulation will last seven years, is drawn from one passage in Daniel 9.

If you look it up in the Hebrew, it is talking about "Messiah," - "mashiyach;" - from anointed; usually a consecrated person (as a king, priest, or saint); spec. the Messiah: - anointed, Messiah. It is not talking about The Antichrist.

Jesus ministered for 3 1/2 years and was "cut-off" (meaning, death). The disciples continued to take the Gospel to the Jewish nation for 3 1/2 years, until, the stoning of Stephen.

No one knows how long the Tribulation will last, possibly, a few weeks or months. The devastation will be enormous.

It'a amazing how Christians will choose what they want to believe. Jesus's words in Matthew 24, are pretty plain.

He said, that, He is coming AFTER the Great Tribulation.

 

[lecoop]

The idea, that, the Tribulation will last seven years, is drawn from one passage in Daniel 9.

If you look it up in the Hebrew, it is talking about "Messiah," - "mashiyach;" - from anointed; usually a consecrated person (as a king, priest, or saint); spec. the Messiah: - anointed, Messiah. It is not talking about The Antichrist.

Jesus ministered for 3 1/2 years and was "cut-off" (meaning, death). The disciples continued to take the Gospel to the Jewish nation for 3 1/2 years, until, the stoning of Stephen.

No one knows how long the Tribulation will last, possibly, a few weeks or months. The devastation will be enormous.

It'a amazing how Christians will choose what they want to believe. Jesus's words in Matthew 24, are pretty plain.

He said, that, He is coming AFTER the Great Tribulation.

You ignore the five verses in Revelation that give us 1260 days, or 42 months, or time, times, and half of time, all showing us that the last half of a future period of time will be 3 1/2 years, proving that the entire time will be 7 years. revelation also shows us that this will all take place at the end of the church age, still future to us now.

Coop

 

[Vic C.]

So how does the "day of the Lord," and this time of intense persecution (GT) relate to each other? Actually, this time of great persecution is inside or contained in the day of the Lord. In other words, the day of the Lord starts with the 7th seal (right after the rapture of the saints at the 6th seal) and about 3 1/2 years later, the abomination event occurs, right at the midpoint of the week. This time of great persecution will start at the midpoint, and go from there, during the second half of the 70th week of Daniel. Therefore, the "Day of the Lord," and the 70th week of Daniel start together at the 7th seal. This time of great persecution will be shortened (it won't go the entire 42 months) by God pouring out the vials of His wrath with the plagues. The persecution will stop, while the beast is preparing for Armageddon, and finally, the 70th week stops with the 7th vial. However, the Day of the Lord, continues right on to and through the battle of Armageddon. Therefore, both the "GT" and the 70th week of Daniel are inside the day of the Lord.

This is sooooo not true.

http://j.b5z.net/i/u/2105577/i/The_Trib ... ith_-1.htm

(Primary assumption: the wrath of God and “the Great Tribulation†are the same. Whether in ignorance or a blatant attempt to prejudice the reader, Pastor Smith is very misleading. While posttribbers teach that the church is on the earth during the Great Tribulation, they teach that the church is protected from God’s wrath. Therefore, I am not sure of whom Pastor Smith speaks, here.)

It's too bad one has to ignore and/or twist scripture just to try and fit everything into a nice, neat seven year package, that most likely has come and gone. :-?

 

[lecoop]

It's too bad one has to ignore and/or twist scripture just to try and fit everything into a nice, neat seven year package, that most likely has come and gone. :-?

So wrong? Ignore or twist?

Quote from the link:

1. The Two Tribulations

(The issue is not two tribulations, but one: the â€ÂGreat Tribulationâ€Â. Is the Great Tribulation the wrath of God or the wrath of Satan? Revelation 12:12 identifies Satan’s wrath as the culprit during the last half of Daniel’s Seventieth Week. The earth and the sea are in harms way when Satan is cast down to the earth at the midpoint of Daniel’s last week. Satan has exactly three and a half years left on earth when he is cast out of heaven at the midpoint of the Week. He persecutes the woman, i.e., the remnant of Israel first, but she is put in protective custody for three and a half years. Satan then persecutes the offspring of the woman (the church) who is not given protection from his wrath.

Indeed, the great persecution is the work of Satan, working through the beast to kill every one that loves God, and who refuses the mark of the beast. And we know that this will take place during the last half of the week.

BUT: What is happening in heaven during this same time?

Revelation 15
1And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God.

God starts pouring out His wrath on the kingdom of the beast, while the beast is trying to kill all the Jews and believers!

Now, if you think this is twisting, please show me how? It is a straigt forward look at Revelation. It is God's wrath at the same time as Satan's wrath. In fact, I am convinced, God's wrath is because of what the beast is doing!

Coop

 

[lecoop]

Quote from link:

(If the wrath of God begins with seal one, why are the wicked running only at seal six? Conveniently or because of a lack of knowledge, Pastor Smith skips without commenting on the most important passage that defines the true nature of the first five seals in Revelation 6:10. The martyrs’ question is critical at this point. They ask, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, wilt Thou refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?†Revelation 6:11 records God’s answer, “…until the number of their fellow servants and their brethren who were to be killed even as they had been should be completed also.†The souls do not in any shape, form, or fashion assign responsibility to God for their deaths. The earth dwellers are responsible for their deaths. If God is “refraining from judging and avengingâ€Â, then His wrath has not begun yet. Seal five asks for the wrath of God. Seal six announces the imminent out-break of God’s wrath, and seal seven shows the coming of God’s eschatological wrath in the Day of the Lord. How could Pastor Smith miss this?)

http://j.b5z.net/i/u/2105577/i/The_Trib ... ith_-1.htm

This is good, and I am in agreement! God's wrath is starting at the sixth seal, and the "day of the Lord" will start at the 7th seal. Pastor Smith is just wrong, as was pointed out.

Coop

 

[lecoop]

Quote from link:

(Rev. 14:10 states, “he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God…†The “he†refers to the beast-marked worshippers. Pastor Smith errs at this point because he fails to understand the chronology of the book of Revelation. Rev. 14 covers things that happen after the Seventieth Week of Daniel concludes.)

(emphasis added)

http://j.b5z.net/i/u/2105577/i/The_Trib ... ith_-1.htm

Do you agree with this Vic? Where is the scriptural proof of this? I disagree. At the 7th vial, John says, "it is finished." I believe he is speaking about the 70th week of Daniel.

Coop

 

[herald]

I have posted, "Daniel & Revelation Reveal The Antichrist," and "Revelation 13:11 - Protestant America" on over 100 sites.

In them, I show how that the 1260 years has, already, been fulfilled.

If you are interested in reading them, try, http://www.prophecytalk.com or, http://www.his-servants.org.

And, with all due respect, the children of Israel were on the earth, during the Ten Plagues and Noah and his family were protected during the Great Flood, that, destroyed every other person upon the earth. That sounds like tribulation to me!

 

[lecoop]

Quote from link:

The angels are given trumpets in Heaven, (only after the seventh seal) and as they blow the trumpets corresponding judgments come upon the earth. The vials from the living creatures are opened by the seven angels, and again corresponding judgments come upon the earth. All these judgments come from God and have their origin in Heaven (an assumption easily proven false).

(emphasis added)

http://j.b5z.net/i/u/2105577/i/The_Trib ... ith_-1.htm

Again, Vic, I would like to see this proof. It seems very correct to say that the trumpets (and the judgements related to them) come from God.

BTW, who is writing these rebuttals to Chuch Smith's writings?

Coop

 

[Vic C.]

Indeed, the great persecution is the work of Satan, working through the beast to kill every one that loves God, and who refuses the mark of the beast. And we know that this will take place during the last half of the week.

BUT: What is happening in heaven during this same time?

Revelation 15
1And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God.

God starts pouring out His wrath on the kingdom of the beast, while the beast is trying to kill all the Jews and believers!

Now, if you think this is twisting, please show me how? It is a straigt forward look at Revelation. It is God's wrath at the same time as Satan's wrath. In fact, I am convinced, God's wrath is because of what the beast is doing!

Coop

The classic PreWrath position declares that Satan's persecution brgins after the fourth seal is opened and concludes after the sixth seal is opened. It does adhere to Satan being given 42 months of power over the earth, but also declares that his powers are rendered all but useless once the Trumpet Judgements commence. You just don't find any persecution of believers going on once we are introduced to the great multitude. Everything from that point on is all God.

Notice in the verse you posted:

Revelation 15
1And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God.

See that it says, "... the seven last plagues..." That dictates that there were plagues (or judgements) prior to this verse. One other thing that PreWrath points out; the bowls (or vials) are poured out after the end of the 70th. week. Van Kampen believes it happens after the beginning of the additional 30 days Daniel alludes to here:

Daniel 12:11

3 1/2 years would be 1260 days. Subtract that from the 1290 days in that verse and you get... 30 days. For me to try and explain all this in one nice, neat little post would do the writer injustice. To get the full gist of this 30 days, you might want to read chapter 20 of The Sign.

 

[Vic C.]

Quote from link:

The angels are given trumpets in Heaven, (only after the seventh seal) and as they blow the trumpets corresponding judgments come upon the earth. The vials from the living creatures are opened by the seven angels, and again corresponding judgments come upon the earth. All these judgments come from God and have their origin in Heaven (an assumption easily proven false)

(emphasis added)

http://j.b5z.net/i/u/2105577/i/The_Trib ... ith_-1.htm

Again, Vic, I would like to see this proof. It seems very correct to say that the trumpets (and the judgements related to them) come from God.

BTW, who is writing these rebuttals to Chuch Smith's writings?

Coop

Coop, you left out the one part of the passage that answers your question. Here it is in it's entirety:

When the seals are opened in Heaven corresponding judgments come upon the earth (Contradiction: clearly all the seals are not wrathful. Seal five has no wrath). The angels are given trumpets in Heaven, (only after the seventh seal) and as they blow the trumpets corresponding judgments come upon the earth. The vials from the living creatures are opened by the seven angels, and again corresponding judgments come upon the earth. All these judgments come from God and have their origin in Heaven (an assumption easily proven false).

Coop, Chuck Smith is including the seals as part of God's judgement. This is a grave error. When the writer points out that this assumption can be easily proven false, he is referring specifically to the seals, most of them anyway.

I know what you believe and I know both of us could post proving the first four seals are NOT from God.

The one refuting Smith is Charles Cooper. He knows his stuff when it comes to the classic PreWrath position.

 

[MrVersatile48]

I'll start printing Rapture Scriptures

Matthew 24:30-42 (New International Version)

30"At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. 31And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

32"Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near. 33Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it[a]is near, right at the door. 34I tell you the truth, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. 35Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.

The Day and Hour Unknown

36"No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son,[c] but only the Father. 37As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 38For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; 39and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 40Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. 41Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left.
42"Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come.

1 Corinthians 15:51-58 (New International Version)


51Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed 52in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.

53For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: "Death has been swallowed up in victory."[a]
55"Where, O death, is your victory?
Where, O death, is your sting?" 56The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. 57But thanks be to God! He gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

58Therefore, my dear brothers, stand firm. Let nothing move you. Always give yourselves fully to the work of the Lord, because you know that your labor in the Lord is not in vain.

1 Thessalonians 4

The Coming of the Lord

13Brothers, we do not want you to be ignorant about those who fall asleep, or to grieve like the rest of men, who have no hope. 14We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him.

15According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

18Therefore encourage each other with these words.

See new appeal too:-

http://www.christianforums.net/viewtopi ... 213#318213

Ian

 

[lecoop]

Vic said,

The classic PreWrath position declares that Satan's persecution brgins after the fourth seal is opened and concludes after the sixth seal is opened. It does adhere to Satan being given 42 months of power over the earth, but also declares that his powers are rendered all but useless once the Trumpet Judgements commence. You just don't find any persecution of believers going on once we are introduced to the great multitude. Everything from that point on is all God.

(Emphasis added)

(Assumption stated without explicit or implied biblical support: it is only a theory that the trumpet judgements are what "shorten" the days.)
Please keep the first highlighted words in mind, as I will get to them later.

Vic continues

Notice in the verse you posted:

Revelation 15
1And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God.

See that it says, "... the seven last plagues..." That dictates that there were plagues (or judgements) prior to this verse. One other thing that PreWrath points out; the bowls (or vials) are poured out after the end of the 70th. week. Van Kampen believes it happens after the beginning of the additional 30 days Daniel alludes to here:

(emphasis added)

It is fine with me if you choose to call the trumpets (or some of them) plagues. Please keep in mind your idea here; "after the 70th week."


Below are some quotes from Charles cooper from:
http://j.b5z.net/i/u/2105577/i/The_Trib ... ith_-1.htm

Coop's comments placed inside the quotes in dark red.

(Assumption stated without explicit or implied biblical support: where does Scripture teach that Revelation 15 refers to Israel? Major contradiction: Israel is put in protective custody during the Great Tribulation in Revelation 12, and national Israel is not saved until the end of the Seventieth Week. Therefore, Revelation 15 cannot refer to Israel in heaven. There is no indication in Scripture that Israel appears in heaven. All saved Jews are on earth at the end of the Seventieth Week.)(emphasis added) Note that he says the GT is shown in chapter 12.


(Good – this is all true. However, the question concerns the timing of the last trump. When does it blow in the sequence of the end-times? Pastor Smith has yet to demonstrate this from Scripture. Presuppositions are not enough. We need Scripture.)(emphasis added)


(The woes prove that the book of Revelation does not overlap with regard to the seals, trumpets and bowls.)

This is a very bold statement, and one that I agree with. He is showing a straight line chronology of the seals, then the trumpets, then the bowls.

quote from Chuck Smith, answered by Charles Cooper
[quote:a88cb]I see the whole picture coming together very beautifully. After the Church is removed, the Antichrist will be revealed. In Revelation 6 the first event that takes place when the seven-sealed scroll is opened is the white horse coming forth with his rider. This apparently is the Antichrist coming upon the earth. Since the Church has been removed and is now rejoicing with the Lord in Heaven, nothing restrains this wicked one from moving out and taking over the world.

(Assumptions stated without explicit biblical support). (emphasis added)


(Assumptions are stated without any biblical support whatsoever. Pastor Smith expects us to believe him, not because of Scripture but because he said it. Show me the Scripture please, sir.) (emphasis added)


(Unproven assumption: that the church is in heaven at Revelation 4:1; unproven assumption: the great tribulation begins in Revelation 4; unproven assumption: that the church returns with Christ at Armageddon.)(emphasis added)[/quote:a88cb]

Charles Cooper wants assumptions proved: he wants scritpural support. I agree.

The point I want to make is this. Prewrath necessitates morphing and rearranging the chornology of Revelation. For example, Vic's comment above: "Satan's persecution brgins after the fourth seal is opened and concludes after the sixth seal is opened..."

Let's make a paradigm, and bring two things up side by side to compare: Charles Cooper said:

"Israel is put in protective custody during the Great Tribulation in Revelation 12,..."

Charles is correct in pointing to chapter 12, as there are two verses in chapter 12 that show the fleeing from the beast (and undoubtedly from seeing the abomination.) However, Vic says that this event must take place near the fourth seal! Yet Charles cooper points out, again correctly, that "The woes prove that the book of Revelation does not overlap with regard to the seals, trumpets and bowls."

Why then, does prewrath believe that the GT takes place near the 4th seal, and yet after the 7th trumpet? This to me is as great an error as any Chuck Smith made.

Let me guess, and Vic can straighten out my thinking, if I guess wrong.

All this morphing and twisting is forced upon Revelation for one simple reason: Two separate verses, both thought to be speaking of the same event.

Joel points to cosmic signs coming before the "day of the Lord," and Jesus points to cosmic signs as being after the tribulation of those days. I ask the prewrathers this simple question: why does these two verses have to refer to one event? Please keep in mind that if one does force these two verses to point towards the 6th seal, then one will be forced to morph and rearrange most of Revelation to fit. How much better to let these two verses point to two separate times that these cosmic signs are shown, once before the Day of the LOrd, and once after the time of great tribulation, as shown by John to start in chapters 11 or 12, long after the seals.

It seems really sad to take one verse wrong, and because of that, be forced to twist and warp the book of Revelation because of one verse outside Revelation.

Therefore, what biblical basis is there for saying that these two verses both refer to the 6th seal? What biblical basis is there for saying that these two verses refer to two separate events, one before the Day of the Lord, and one after? If you chose one, you are then forced to rearrange the book; if you choose the other, the chronology of Revelation can stay just as John wrote it.

Finally, what words are written in the seals that would give one the idea of the GT being there? Is there mention of the beast? No, John is not even introduced to him until chapter 13! Can we find the abomination, or even a hint of it, in the seals? No, not even a hint? Therefore, it seems that this is just as much poor bible exegesis as saying that the rapture is in Rev 4:1. Either one is just guessing, with no biblical support.

Questions? Comments?

Coop

 

[Vic C.]

Why then, does prewrath believe that the GT takes place near the 4th seal, and yet after the 7th trumpet? This to me is as great an error as any Chuck Smith made.

Let me guess, and Vic can straighten out my thinking, if I guess wrong.

With pleasure! 8-)

(The woes prove that the book of Revelation does not overlap with regard to the seals, trumpets and bowls.)

...and that would be 100% correct. But you are misinterpreting what Cooper is implying. What he is saying is that no part of the seals, trumpets and vials are concurrent.

You will be less than thrilled to know that Cooper teaches the two witnesses are on earth for the second half of the week. Yup! Also, Cooper believes that events kicking off chapter 12 are midweek events. <gasp> You will not like that he also teaches tha somewhere around the fourth/fifth seal is where you will find that midpoint. <GASP!>

How can this be, you ask? It is because most people recognize that around the start of Ch. 12, John goes back a bit to expound upon events that have already happened. (namely the timespan occupied by the last couple of seals and the trumpets).

Coop, until you grasp this simple concept, instead of insisting that all of Revelation is chronological with no exceptions, you will never understand the true timing of events in Revelation. You also ignore the fact that this back and forth of the telling of events was characteristic of apocalyptic writers.

Here is an exercise for anyone:

Read Rev chs. 20 and 21 in reverse order. They make more sense from a chronological perspective. How can Rev 21:27 take place when Rev 20:13-15 has already happened?

Joel points to cosmic signs coming before the "day of the Lord," and Jesus points to cosmic signs as being after the tribulation of those days. I ask the prewrathers this simple question: why does these two verses have to refer to one event?

C'mon bro, we've been down this road before. The writers of some of the Gospels have Jesus saying two different things as he releases His last breath.

Were there two crucifixions and deaths of Jesus or was this just two different perspectives of the same event?

Please, I ask very kindly that you read The Sign and get familiar with the teachings of Cooper and other PreWrath teachers before you try to tell us what you "think" they are saying. It will avoid further confusion.

One more thing... where in Revelation does it say the third woe is let out?

Chronology of Revelation - http://www.tedmontgomery.com/bblovrvw/R ... index.html

See nice chart at link.

 

[lecoop]

Vic said,

...and that would be 100% correct. But you are misinterpreting what Cooper is implying. What he is saying is that no part of the seals, trumpets and vials are concurrent.

You will be less than thrilled to know that Cooper teaches the two witnesses are on earth for the second half of the week. Yup! Also, Cooper believes that events kicking off chapter 12 are midweek events. <gasp> You will not like that he also teaches tha somewhere around the fourth/fifth seal is where you will find that midpoint. <GASP!>

I believe that the two witnesses are on the earth for the 2nd half of the week! They are introduced to John right at the midpoint. And I agree with Him that chapter 12 is about midpoint events. However, he still has much to learn, if he believes that the midpoint of the week is around the 4th or 5th seal! (Where's those rolling gigglers?)

How can this be, you ask? It is because most people recognize that around the start of Ch. 12, John goes back a bit to expound upon events that have already happened. (namely the timespan occupied by the last couple of seals and the trumpets).

"Assumption stated without explicit or implied biblical support!" "There is no indication in Scripture" that John is backpeddling. "Presuppositions are not enough. We need Scripture." "Assumptions are stated without any biblical support whatsoever." Please show me at least some hint of scripture in Revelation that would show John is "backpeddling."

Coop, until you grasp this simple concept, instead of insisting that all of Revelation is chronological with no exceptions, you will never understand the true timing of events in Revelation. You also ignore the fact that this back and forth of the telling of events was characteristic of apocalyptic writers.

This is an assumption stated without any biblical support whatsoever. This is exactly what the prewrathers claim about pre-trib! You are assuming that John rehashes old events because you come to Revelation with preconceived ideas! Please, if you want the readers to believe this, show us some scriptures and reasoning from Revelation to back this up.

Here is an exercise for anyone:

Read Rev chs. 20 and 21 in reverse order. They make more sense from a chronological perspective. How can Rev 21:27 take place when Rev 20:13-15 has already happened?

Vic, there is no indication where this great judgement takes place: it could be on earth. There is no proof that it takes place in the throne room of heaven. Can the Father's throne move? Ezekiel gives us that idea, with the wheels within the wheel.

Quote:
Joel points to cosmic signs coming before the "day of the Lord," and Jesus points to cosmic signs as being after the tribulation of those days. I ask the prewrathers this simple question: why does these two verses have to refer to one event?

C'mon bro, we've been down this road before. The writers of some of the Gospels have Jesus saying two different things as he releases His last breath.

Were there two crucifixions and deaths of Jesus or was this just two different perspectives of the same event?

And near Jericho, there were three separate events of blind men being healed, blind Bartimaeus being one of them. However, most bible scholars try to lump them into one event! Yet there is clear proof of three separate events. One was before they got into Jericho, as they were appraoching, and two was as they were leaving Jericho the next day.

Once again, even though we have been down this road before, please back up and realize that if you can see these two mentions of cosmic events as two separate events, separated by the 70th week, then there is no reason to morph the book of Revelation! It will be in chronological order. Why twist ONE scripture, and then be forced to twist many, because of the one? Next, can you find scriptural proof that these two verse are not speaking of two events?

Please, I ask very kindly that you read The Sign and get familiar with the teachings of Cooper and other PreWrath teachers before you try to tell us what you "think" they are saying. It will avoid further confusion.

Vic, I have read both Rosenthal's and Van Kampen's books, and have written a chapter in my book about prewrath.

One more thing... where in Revelation does it say the third woe is let out?

Of course, as Cooper has shown us, after the second woe! (laughing rollies again) Here is the verse:

"Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels." [5th, 6th, and 7th trumpets remaining at this time]

I agree with Charles that the third woe is the 7th angel sounding his trumpet, and the events that follow: Satan being cast down, the great persecution, and the 7 vials that are poured out. It is at the 7th trumpet that Adam's lease run's out, and God once again takes possession of planet earth!

Chronology of Revelation - http://www.tedmontgomery.com/bblovrvw/R ... index.html

Quote from link:

One of the principal keys to understanding the Book of Revelation is the chronology which takes place in its amazing chapters. Many outright misinterpretations of end-time events have resulted from not recognizing the proper sequencing of many passages in this remarkable and momentous prophetic book.

In some analyses of Revelation, “cutting†certain passages and inappropriately “pasting†them at other locations is a common practice. Often, this is done in an attempt to “prop up†inconsistent viewpoints.

:smt043 :smt043 :smt043

(Sorry, Vic, but I just couldn't resist!) The quote is my point, exactly! If you insist in cutting and pasting, then you MUST show scritpural evidence of why this must be done. You have never done so.

You and I both will disagree with this from the chart:

First Half of the 70th Week = Revelation 6:1-8

The chart is laughable, because he "cut and pasted" to make Revelation fit his preconceived ideas. (I need more rollies!)

Second Half of the 70th Week =
Revelation 6:9–10:7
Rev. 11 (Review of Second Half)
Rev. 12:6–14:20 (Review of Second Half)

He shows the second half as literally taking place in 6:9–10:7: from the fifth seal to the 6th trumpet! (I need more rollies still! Wait, while I cut and paste some more!)

(And all this because ONE verse about cosmic signs is not understood!)

Again, if you expect the readers to believe prewrath is finally, after two thousand years, what the author intended in Revelation, you must show proof in the book, that there is a reason to cut and paste.

From Daniel we know that the abomination event takes place in the middle of the week, dividing the week into two halves.

With one 7 year period cut in half, we have two each, 3 1/2 year periods of time, shown by these phrases:

"the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months."
"they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days"
"they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days"
"she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time"
"power was given unto him to continue forty and two months."

As I have posted before, the Holy Spirit said to me that each of these mentions of this last half of the week, were listed as an event that started at the midpoint of the week, and continued throughout the last half of the week.

Where then, is the midpoint of the week, in Revelation? Again, the Holy Spirit told me that it is "clearly marked." However, let's just go by scriptural proof. If we find a mention of the 1260 days, then that is a "pointer" to the midpoint, since that event starts at the midpoint and goes to the end. Therefore, each of these mentions of the time above are pointers to the midpoint. What "realtime event" i.e., a seal, a trumpet, or a vial, takes place nearest these mentions of the one half week? There is only one: the sounding of the 7th trumpet. As the Holy Spirit said, this "clearly marks" the exact midpoint of the week. (The Holy Spirit then said that the entire 70th week was "clearly marked" in Revelation.)

What do we read at the 7th vial?

17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.

What is done? His wrath? No, for we read about Jesus' wrath during the great battle of Armageddon. Is it the "day of the Lord," that is done? No, that also continues on. I submit that what is done, finished and completed is the 70th week of Daniel!

What do we read at the 7th seal?

1 And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour.

Compared to the other seals, this seems to be a "non-event!" From Joel 2 and Isaiah 2, we know that the 6th seal was the pointer to the start of the Day of the Lord, so it makes good sense that this 7th seal is the start of the day of the Lord. Since we saw that the 7th trumpet was the "marker" to the exact midpoint (sounded in heaven at the same moment that the abomination is taking place on earth) and the 7th vial was the end of the 70th week, then it makes good sense that the 7th seal is the start, both of the day of the Lord, and the 70th week of Daniel.

This is further proved when one discovers that the first seals are broken way back around 33 AD. It seems then, that the first six seals cover the church age, and the 7th seal, used as a "marker" starts both the day of the Lord, and the 70th week of Daniel.

Now, with that said, can any of the readers find scripture that would show this timing to be in error? This is using the book itself, the major work on the end time, to develop it's own chronology.


Coop

 

[lecoop]

With the beginning marker, the 7th seal, the midpoint marker, the 7th trumpet, and the ending marker, the 7th vial, we can see that the trumpets take place during the first half of the week, and the vials during the last half of the week. Hmm: this is John's chronology, without cutting and pasting!

6:1 "when the Lamb opened one of the seals"
6:3 "when he had opened the second seal"
6:5 "And when he had opened the third seal"
6:7 "And when he had opened the fourth seal"
6:9 "9And when he had opened the fifth seal"
6:12 "And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal"
7:3 "Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees"
7:4 "I heard the number of them which were sealed"
7:9 "After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude" [Rapture]
8:1 "when he had opened the seventh seal" [Start of the "Day" and "week"]

[The following events will take place during the first half of the 70th week]

8:7 "The first angel sounded"
8:8 "And the second angel sounded"
8:10 "And the third angel sounded"
8:12 "And the fourth angel sounded"
8:13 "Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth"
9:1 "And the fifth angel sounded" [Woe # 1]
9:12 "One woe is past"
9:13 "And the sixth angel sounded" [Woe # 2]
10:1 start of midpoint intermission; events that take place just before and after the exact midpoint [7th trumpet]
10 Little book and seven thunders
11:1 "Rise, and measure the temple of God"
11:2 "the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months"

[given in months, probably becuase this will not happen exactly to the day, "1260 days." This is perhaps a few days before the 7th trumpet will sound, marking the exact midpoint.]

11:3 "And I will give power unto my two witnesses"

[They testify 1260 days, so this is undoubtedly 3 1/2 days before the 7th trumpet: they start 3 1/2 days before the exact midpoint, and testify for exactly 1260 days; are killed and lay dead for 3 1/2 days, then are raised up at the 7th vial; the official end of the 70th week]

11:6-13 take the two witnesses through the end of the week

[Verse 3, the introduction, is what is in chronological order; not their entire 1260 days. What follows chronologically, right after they are introduced, 3 1/2 days before the 7th trumpet?

11:14 "The second woe is past; and... the third woe cometh quickly."

[All previous events take place in the first 1260 days]

11:15 "And the seventh angel sounded" [Exact midpoint of the week!]
[Woe # 3]
[God takes possession of earth: "The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord..."]

11:16-17 worship and Jesus taking back His great power [the fulness of the Gentiles will have come in, and the church age is over: the church will no longer need His great power, so He takes it back to Himself!]

11:18-19 preview of things to come "the time of the dead, that they should be judged"

12:1-5 "history lesson" for John: showing what the dragon was doing when Jesus came the first time. [This chapter is John's introduction to the dragon.]

12:6 Woman flees: "the woman fled into the wilderness"

[Chronologically follows the sounding of the 7th trumpet: the first "realtime" event that follows the 7th trumpet: remember, the trumpet marks the exact midpoint in heaven, while the abomination event marks the exact midpoint on earth.]

12:7-9 "there was war in heaven:... the great dragon was cast out"

[I suspect that this also starts to happen at the same time as the 7th angel is sounding, just as verse 6. I just don't know how long it will take.]

12:13-17 covers what the dragon does during the second half of the week.

[The chronology is this: 7th trumpet - "And the great dragon was cast out"]

13:1-4 "History lesson" for John covering the rising of the beast to power. [This chapter is John's intro to the beast and false prophet.]

13:5 Chronology point, follows the 7th trumpet: "power was given unto him to continue forty and two months"

13:6-18 Shows John what the beast will do through the end of the week. However, chronolgically, God is still at the midpoint in the vision; perhaps only minutes from the sounding of the 7th trumpet, since these events happen at the same time.
14:1-5 John sees the 144,000 in heaven: they have been raptured!

[Probably another event that will take place at the moment that the 7th angel sounds his trumpet, or a few seconds later. However, John sees then after they are transported to heaven.]
14:6-12 Messages of three angels

[It should be clear, since one angels warns of the danger of taking the mark of the beast, that these angels also will give their message right at or very near the exact midpoint, for it will not take long for the beast to establish the mark: perhaps a few days at most. Therefore, the vision from God is still at the midpoint: hense I coined "the midpoint intermission."]

14:13 "Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth"

[shows us that what is coming will be the great tribulation: hense, one more proof that the vision is still at the midpoint.]

14:14-20 Difficult passage: we know that corn might be harvested with a sickle (I myself have done it) but people NOT! It is symbolic, and probably a preview of things to come. However, the harvest is in two parts:

14:16 "he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped" [Seems to be a righteous harvest]
14:19 "the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God."
[Seems to be the harvest of the wicked].

15:1 "seven angels having the seven last plagues" [Sometime in the last half of the week]
15:2 "I saw ...them that had gotten the victory over the beast," {Sees many that were put to death by the beast - so is pointing to a time late in the last half of the week.
15:6 "the seven angels came out of the temple, having the seven plagues"
[It is time for God to "shorten" the days.]
16:2 "And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth"
16:3 "And the second angel poured out his vial"
16:4 "And the third angel poured out his vial"
16:8 "the fourth angel poured out his vial"
16:10 "the fifth angel poured out his vial"
16:12 "the sixth angel poured out his vial"
16:17 "the seventh angel poured out his vial" [It is finished: end of 70th week]
16-18 - 18:24 vision shows John the total distruction of "babylon," that undoubtedly took place at the 7th vial. It was so thorough a destruction that it took John two chapters to cover it!
19:1-5 Worship of God over the destruction of Babylon.
19: 6-10 Marriage of the Lamb
19: 11-21 Jesus second coming, and battle of Armegeddon

This is a "straight through" chronology of the book, starting at the seals. It makes perfect sense without any "backpeddling" or "cutting and pasting." John, for the most part, gives us the events in the order that they will take place.

If someone disagrees, please show scripture and verse to prove that John did not write these things in chronological order.

Coop