StoveBolts said:
That’s a convoluted statement as I am sure that you would agree that if you are going to drive, you must know how the rules work. Thus, one must know how the rules of the road. Furthermore, one must know the fundamental basics such as identifying the gas pedal, brake pedal, turns signals and other ‘basic’ functions as well. In addition, one must show that they are competent both in their knowledge and use of that knowledge lest they attempt to stop at a red light with their horn while failing to realize that the brake pedal is the appropriate response.
I agree you have to know some things like what you mentioned, but there is a level of detail you do not have to know. You don't have to know where the wires are unless you blow a fuse. Nowadays, you don't even have to know how to change your oil. You don't even need to know what a spark plug is or how it works. You don't even need to understand the engineering of the engine or how gas burns to make the car go. On a deeper level, you don't need to understand chemistry to know why the gas combines with oxygen. You don't need to go down further to the quantum mechanics to understand the chemistry.
Basically, there is some level where ignorance of the subject does not change the overall conclusion.
First, you must show that you recognize who the ‘Hebrews’ are from their pagan counterparts that are mentioned in the historical setting outlined both in the bible and other ancient texts.
I have a feeling a lot of that would divert us. My guess is that I have a different historical view of the Israelites than you do. Here is a quick summary of mine.
Some of the Israelites were guest workers in Egypt. Egypt decided their economy was hurting because of them (much like the USA's recent debates about illegal Mexicans working in the US). The Israelites are forced to leave. They come to the lands of the Canaanites. At this point, the Israelites have patriachial gods. One god for each family.
They get stuck in the bad areas and try to take some of the lands by force. They win some and lose some. The tribes unite to fight better. They start to copy the Canaanites and how they view their gods. The Israelites are polytheistic and Yewhew is the head god of their pantheon, or divine council or the host. Yawhew is formed from merging all the patriachial gods into one god. His consort is Asherahand there are other gods that Yahweh is chief of.
The Israelites are a loose affiliation of tribes and they wrestle with the idea of their gods and the Canaanites gods. Some think that they are one in the same and even say things like Ba'al is Yahweh.
One day a priest of Yahweh finds a mysterious note that somehow was missed from Moses that said they should just worship the priest's god. (How convenient..) The convert to monotheism. This mysterious note is assumed to be some of Deuteronomy and was probably written soon before it was "found."
My guess is that you will agree with little of that.
Secondly, you must understand the parts of the sacrificial system to understand its purpose. Where you aware that the animal sacrifices were most often eaten as a fellowship meal?
Yeah, I once believe it was a pure waste, but I found out that Hebrew animal sacrifice was closer to the Greek animals sacrifice where the meat was eaten. It makes me wonder how far back animal sacrifice really goes.
Human sacrifice was not an authorized form of worship or sacrifice to Yahweh.
But God did bless people that did use ritual human sacrifice. It would seem that if God were against it, he would not have blessed the people.
But in the more broader sense, a human is sacrificed to God every time a human is killed because God told them to. So when Joshua was expanding, they killed the humans in each city for God and thus sacrificed them to God. God just didn't have rituals for it like the other deities in the time did. He was more of a war god.
It is always a good thing when family comes together to eat a meal with one another and give thanks to God, in the presence of God. But, since you do not believe in God, you would still have to agree that it is a good thing for a family to come together unified, and in agreement with one another for a meal.
When an animal sacrifice is used as a blessing and eaten, it is one thing. However, senseless slaughter is another. Like in the following passage:
2 Chronicles 7: 1-5 - "...and the glory of the Lord filled the temple...And King Solomon offered a sacrifice of twenty-two thousand head of cattle and a hundred and twenty thousand sheep and goats. So the king and all the people dedicated the temple of God."
Can you substantiate your thoughts from any ancient texts that would infer such an opinion? I’m not even aware of any pagan rituals that viewed sacrifice in the fullness which you describe..
You have clearly staked out a stand in this matter. It is now your responsibility to substantiate this claim with historical documentation.
Let me just point you to Exodus 20:24 as to its purpose according to the Israelites.
I was thinking of Leviticus 19:20-22
'If a man sleeps with a woman who is a slave girl promised to another man but who has not been ransomed or given her freedom, there must be due punishment. Yet they are not to be put to death, because she had not been freed. The man, however, must bring a ram to the entrance to the Tent of Meeting for a guilt offering to the LORD. With the ram of the guilt offering the priest is to make atonement for him before the LORD for the sin he has committed, and his sin will be forgiven.
A man raped an engaged slave and is suppose to kill a ram for a guilt offering. I don't think they consciously thought this as a fine to God, but I think they adjusted the punishment to be a similar concept.
Not a part of the sacrificial system and completely out of context for this topic
But these were humans sacrificed in a ritual to God. It may not have been common, but it happened.
Wow… How did you come up with that? Please recant that statement or give proof to substantiate your claim.
The text is "
And if it is true and it has been proved that this detestable thing has been done among you, you must certainly put to the sword all who live in that town. Destroy it completely, both its people and its livestock. Gather all the plunder of the town into the middle of the public square and completely burn the town and all its plunder as a whole burnt offering to the LORD your God.
I assume the bodies of the people will be burned with the town. Maybe i am mistake and the bodies are left to rot in the open. However, the people are killed for God and on God's command so they are human sacrifices.
I could go into great detail here. But in essence, it’s sad what some will do in the name of the Lord huh? Lets say that he did burn her as a sacrifice, does this mean that God authorized it let alone accepted it? Certainly not. Regardless of how you argue this story, the language itself is not decisive enough to stake claim that his daughter was actually burned as a sacrifice but rather suggests that she was committed as a virgin to the Lords service.
God answered Jephthah's prayer and knew what he would sacrifice because of it. God could have chosen not to answer the prayer or did like Abraham and Isaac and sent another animal out in her place. It seems pretty clear from the text that she was killed and it is wishful thinking that she was not.
We’ve been over the death of David’s son. I still owe Dean a keyboard, remember? Lol.
Heh. I can barely remember that.
When you realize the sacrificial system as performed by the Israelites, your folly should become very evident. One thing that I have recently realized is how the 400 years in Egypt molded their thinking. I’ve got a ton of original translations directly out of Egypt that includes their rites and rituals… Talk about deprogramming the Israelites… This has to be a consideration.
I guess my statement on this is it doesn't matter if the Israelites thought animal sacrifice or human sacrifice was a good thing or not. What matter is what God thinks, right? God was not a slave. God knows the future. God is suppose to be good. So when we see God promote horrible things and go against the concept of justice, we can use our modern understanding of these concepts to say they were wrong.
For example, should girls that have pre-maritial ssex be stoned to death in front of their parents? God thought it was good then. We think that is horrible now. Does God still think that was a good idea?
So my stance is based on the idea that modern sensibility says that the Israelites and the Bible promotes many evil things. It doesn't matter if the people thought they were good. So we can argue it from a modern sensibility.
