The sin that would not be forgiven

[Classik]

Hi Classik!

Like as has already been mentioned, I tend to believe that this particular sin, could only have been committed when Christ was on earth in the flesh.

If it is/was possible today, then (imho) it would have most certainly been said in the epistles as something to be aware of, and to guard against.

Satan certainly seems to use this one, as one of his flaming arrows against many believers.

This is a very clear view. It makes sense.

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

If it is/was possible today, then (imho) it would have most certainly been said in the epistles as something to be aware of, and to guard against.

It was. We wouldn't be discussing it if it wasn't. Why do you suppose it remained in the inspired word of God if some form of it was not a danger to man today?

 

[handy]

I have to agree with dustoftheearth... Unbelief is a sin that is forgiven all the time, when the unbeliever believes. Nowhere is unbelief pointed to as the "unforgivable sin" .

But, our Lord clearly stated that there is a sin which is unforgivable... meaning that if you do this, you won't be forgiven, not now, not in eternity.

That was clearly pointed out as blasphemy of the Holy Spirit... the attributing of things, which one actually does believe is from God, to demons or just dismissing it.

I think the best example of this sin is found with Pharaoh. When we look through Pharaoh's responses to Moses and then the times he hardened his heart, Pharaoh is clearly just either toying with Moses or dismissing him. But, in Exodus 9 we see Pharaoh make a confession of faith and clearly believe that it was God behind the plagues:

“I have sinned this time; the Lord is the righteous one, and I and my people are the wicked ones. Make supplication to the Lord, for there has been enough of God’s thunder and hail; and I will let you go, and you shall stay no longer.â€

However, after God took away the plague, Pharaoh once again hardened his heart. Only this time it's clear that he knows God is the one directing the plagues, he knows he is in the wrong. The result? Exodus 10 shows us that after Pharaoh blasphemed the Holy Spirit (Who was the source of Pharaoh's knowledge that God was indeed bringing the plagues), from then on, God hardened Pharaoh's heart. Pharaoh was given enlightenment and the opportunity to repent by the Holy Spirit. He knew this, and he rejected it.

This is a lot more than simple unbelief. Actually, it's the opposite of unbelief, it is belief...belief that God is working, that God is acting, and then rejecting God from a position of truly believing in Him.

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

I have to agree with dustoftheearth... Unbelief is a sin that is forgiven all the time, when the unbeliever believes. Nowhere is unbelief pointed to as the "unforgivable sin" .

Belief only comes about by the Holy Spirit. Denying the Spirit's work of revealing truth to you would result in unforgiveness. Both of you are making the understanding of the passages in question too difficult.

But, our Lord clearly stated that there is a sin which is unforgivable... meaning that if you do this, you won't be forgiven, not now, not in eternity.

So ... what is it? Tell me, so I can avoid it.

 

[Classik]

To Post #21
And not mentioning it in the epistle doesn't mean I should blaspheme against the Spirit

 

[Dustoftheearth]

What is the punishment if any??

Anyone who had committed that sin, would not be forgiven that sin.

Would there be any punishment for that sin, and if so what is that punishment, is not said.

Does it mean that any or all of their others sins would not be forgiven? I don't know, it does not say.

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

Anyone who had committed that sin, would not be forgiven that sin.

Would there be any punishment for that sin, and if so what is that punishment, is not said.

Does it mean that any or all of their others sins would not be forgiven? I don't know, it does not say.

So you honestly believe that Jesus would allude to an unforgivable sin without explaining it? I think not. He did. Pre-cross, it was referring to crediting the Spirit's work to Satan or vice versa. Post-cross, it is unbelief. Period. It is quite plain in the context.

 

[Dustoftheearth]

Actually, that's exactly what it is. The Holy Spirit calls all men, He draws some men, He convicts a few of these to repent and trust Jesus. Those who aren't convicted deny the work of the Holy Spirit by rejecting His revelation to them.

Jesus didn't say the unforgivable sin wouldn't be forgiven even with repentance. The process I spelled out in the post to which you replied states that very clearly. Unbelief will not be forgiven because it is not repented of, because the sinner doesn't ever consider he needs to repent of unbelief. To him/her, he/she is fine without Christ They will perish.

But repentance, as I showed in Luke 17:4, is universal in acquiring forgiveness. Repent of unbelief, and one will be saved.

So, would a child or someone physically and/or mentally incapable person, who died in unbelief would (in your opinion) be toast?

There is no unforgivable sin other than unbelief. What could it possibly be other than that? Put a name to it for me, so I can understand.

Man-made doctrine.

I find nowhere in scripture that says, or even suggests that unbelief is blasphemy of the Holy Spirit.

On the cross, Jesus said "Father forgive them, for they know not what they do"
Do you think that the His Father ignored His Son?

Act 7:59 They went on stoning Stephen as he called on the Lord and said, "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit!"
Act 7:60 Then falling on his knees, he cried out with a loud voice, "Lord, do not hold this sin against them!" Having said this, he fell asleep.

Whilst being stoned to death, Stephen fell on his knees, "he cried out with a loud voice, "Lord, do not hold this sin against them!"

Do you think that the Lord ignored the cry of Stephen?

Perhaps (just perhaps) if Stephen had not cried out to the Lord to forgive them, then we might not have had Saul/Paul.
Paul said that he had received such great mercy, because what he had done, he did in ignorance.

How many today are in unbelief because of the pathetic witness of Christians and the multitude of man-made worldly churches? Where is the light on the hill?

How many today are in unbelief, because the gospel is not preached in power from on high?
How many today are in unbelief, because of another gospel being preached?
How many today are in unbelief, because the gospel is preached with clever and persuasive words and gimmicks?

 

[Dustoftheearth]

So you honestly believe that Jesus would allude to an unforgivable sin without explaining it? I think not. He did. Pre-cross, it was referring to crediting the Spirit's work to Satan or vice versa. Post-cross, it is unbelief. Period. It is quite plain in the context.

He did say what it was?

Matt 12:33 "Either make the tree good and its fruit good, or make the tree bad and its fruit bad; for the tree is known by its fruit.

Mark 3:28 "Truly I say to you, all sins shall be forgiven the sons of men, and whatever blasphemies they utter;
Mark 3:29 but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin"--
Mark 3:30 because they were saying, "He has an unclean spirit."

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

He did say what it was?

Matt 12:33 "Either make the tree good and its fruit good, or make the tree bad and its fruit bad; for the tree is known by its fruit.

Mark 3:28 "Truly I say to you, all sins shall be forgiven the sons of men, and whatever blasphemies they utter;
Mark 3:29 but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin"--
Mark 3:30 because they were saying, "He has an unclean spirit."

How do you make the tree's fruit good? How do you rid yourself of an unclean spirit? Answer: Proclaim Christ as Savior and Lord. And one can only do that by the power and influence of the Holy Spirit.

[/discussion]

 

[handy]

So you honestly believe that Jesus would allude to an unforgivable sin without explaining it? I think not. He did. Pre-cross, it was referring to crediting the Spirit's work to Satan or vice versa. Post-cross, it is unbelief. Period. It is quite plain in the context.

Can you supply some texts where it states, post-cross, that the unforgivable sin is unbelief? Because if so, the gospel is pretty much moot... What I mean is, if unbelief is unforgivable, and we are to preach to those who are unbelievers, then what's the point...if unbelief is unforgivable.

Belief only comes about by the Holy Spirit. Denying the Spirit's work of revealing truth to you would result in unforgiveness.

Now, we're getting far closer to mutual agreement. People are unbelievers because they have never experienced the revelation of the Holy Spirit. However, once the Holy Spirit shines the light of truth in, they go from unbelief to belief and are saved. But, if the Holy Spirit enlightens someone, bringing about belief and then one rejects that revealed truth, then one has indeed blasphemed the Spirit. But, this isn't unbelief, it's a rejection of something that has been revealed to be truth and believed to be truth, but rejected anyway.

This is what Pharaoh did. The Holy Spirit obviously revealed to Pharaoh that God was working, Pharaoh even went so far as to confess his sin and ask for intercession. But, while Pharaoh believed, he did not revere and thus rejected the truth of what the Holy Spirit revealed to him.

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

Can you supply some texts where it states, post-cross, that the unforgivable sin is unbelief? Because if so, the gospel is pretty much moot... What I mean is, if unbelief is unforgivable, and we are to preach to those who are unbelievers, then what's the point...if unbelief is unforgivable.

You're not reading what I'm saying. Let's try again ...

Matthew 12 NASB
31 "Therefore I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven people, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. 32 "And whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come."
​

The Pharisees had long observed the sinless Jesus Christ. They observed him doing undeniable and powerful miracles that were, at the very least, clear evidence of power supplied by God. These impressive miracles were freely given in pure kindness and love to release people from obvious suffering and the oppression of horrible evil.

However, the Pharisees had so firmly set their hearts against accepting Jesus as the Messiah that they rejected the obvious truth before them and perversely twisted it to influence the crowds. They publicly credited the most ultimately evil being in the universe with these precious, godly miracles. In other words, they called the precious and holy Spirit of God, the unclean spirit of Satan. In effect, they charged Jesus Christ with sorcery; one who is in league with Satan. These charges are not only appalling and extremely serious, but clearly absurd. As Jesus immediately responded,

Mark 3 NASB
23 "How can Satan cast out Satan?
24 "If a kingdom is divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand.
25 "And if a house is divided against itself, that house will not be able to stand.
26 "And if Satan has risen up against himself and is divided, he cannot stand, but is coming to an end.
27 "But no one can enter a strong man's house and plunder his goods, unless he first binds the strong man. Then indeed he may plunder his house.
28 "Truly, I say to you, all sins will be forgiven the children of man, and whatever blasphemies they utter, 29 "but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin" --
30 for they were saying, "He has an unclean spirit."
​

Speaking against the Son of man might be due to a failure to recognize Him for what He is. Three times in Acts, we read of how Paul was delivered from this state. Twice he testifies how in his pre-Christian days he thought it his duty to oppose the name of Jesus of Nazareth. But if, having seen the light on the Damascus Road, he had deliberately closed his eyes to it and kicked out against the goad which was directing him into the true path, that would have been the sin against the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit persuades and enables men to accept Christ and enjoy the saving benefits of the gospel [John 16:8; 1 Corinthians 2:12-14; Acts 7:51], but if anyone refuses to submit to the Spirit's gracious constraint, preferring to call good evil and evil good, how can the gospel avail for him?

But you must also note that Jesus is speaking of an attitude here, the very attitude Paul writes of himself having held. The man who is set against Christ and speaks against the Holy Spirit's calling of him to repentance has no mind to consider he is wrong, and in need of repentance. Jesus does not exclude repentance as delivering someone out of this state. He merely says that, as long as a man has this attitude, he is irremediable. He does not say repentance cannot come, if the man will open his heart. Just that, in this state, he is lost.

 

[handy]

I think I do understand where you're coming from, I am just being disagreeable! :D

Seriously, I understand that you're saying that it's unforgivable to remain unrepentant, but if we repent, then we can be forgiven.

I don't agree that's the point Jesus was making here.

I believe Jesus was making a point that there is one point of no return, and that point is to reject what the Holy Spirit clearly reveals. He knew the hearts of the Pharisees. He knew that they knew He was of God and the only way anyone knows that is due to the revelation of the Holy Spirit. But, instead of attributing Jesus' works to God, they instead tried to mislead the people by saying they were from Satan.

Where the Pharisee's here got themselves into such hot water was the fact that they knew... it wasn't a matter of unbelief or even unrepentance... it was a matter of clearly knowing, via the Holy Spirit, that Jesus was of God.

In this, their sin was much the same as that of the demons. Demons believe, and shudder because they know there is no hope for them. Belief was never an issue for the demons, they knew absolutely Who God is and rejected Him anyway. When the Holy Spirit reveals Who God is to humans, and some still reject the work of the Holy Spirit in such a way...then no, there is no forgiveness for that, just as there is no forgiveness for the demons.

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

I don't believe there is any point a sinner can reach in this life where he/she is irredeemable. Certainly as long as he remains stubbornly in his/her sin and unbelief, that would be the case. But as long as there is breath, there is hope. I don't believe the Bible teaches otherwise. The passages in Matthew and Mark we've been discussing here were primarily aimed at the Pharisees and scribes, titularly God's people in that they were part of Israel but unbelievers because they rejected Christ. In so doing, they had spoken against the Holy Spirit, crediting His work to Satan. So, why include the story in the New Testament if it was pre-cross and pre-indwelling? Because a form of the blasphemy is still active, and that is as some of us on the thread have stated, is rejecting Christ, which is the same kind of sin as that committed by the Pharisees, i.e., denying the work of the Holy Spirit's drawing, calling and salvation-enabling power.