What's new
By:
Filters
Christian Forums

This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

The Sovereignty of God...or not.

V

Vince

Member
Many Christians would be surprised to learn that "the sovereignty of God" is never mentioned in Scripture. The Bible never defines the phrase, never commands you to believe in it, and never uses it as a scare tactic.

The doctrine is often used to frighten Christians into Calvinism, when Christians have nothing to be afraid of. Showing that the doctrine is unbiblical isn't that difficult. But learning how to deal with scare tactics, with doctrines that aren't in the Scripture, and with false accusations can provide a valuable learning experience for God's people.
 
Since the word "sovereignty" does not appear in the Bible, you can start off with this list:

1)There is no Biblical definition of the sovereignty of God
2) No accusations against people who don't believe in the sovereignty of God are listed in the Bible
3) You are never commanded to believe in the sovereignty of God
4) You are never forbidden to believe in the sovereignty of God
 
Caroline H said:
I believe that God is absolutely sovereign, AND I'm NOT a Calvinist. :)
Click to expand...

No problem, Caroline. I'll be getting into different definitions of the sovereignty of God later.
 
Me too caroline! And i am not a calvie.

definition of sovereign-

sov·er·eign? ?/?s?vr?n, ?s?v?r?n, ?s?v-/ Show Spelled[sov-rin, sov-er-in, suhv-] Show IPA
–noun
1.a monarch; a king, queen, or other supreme ruler.
2.a person who has sovereign power or authority.
3.a group or body of persons or a state having sovereign authority.
4.a gold coin of the United Kingdom, equal to one pound sterling: went out of circulation after 1914.

#1 God is a KING and a SUPREME RULER

1Ti 6:15 Which in his times he shall shew, [who is] the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
1Ti 6:16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom [be] honour and power everlasting. Amen.

Rev 17:14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him [are] called, and chosen, and faithful.

Hsa 13:4 ¶ Yet I [am] the LORD thy God from the land of Egypt, and thou shalt know no god but me: for [there is] no saviour beside me.

#2 a person who has sovereign power and authority
Rom 13:1 ¶ Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God. Rom 13:2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.

Hbr 2:8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing [that is] not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.


#3a group or body having sovereign authority
Eph 1:22 And hath put all [things] under his feet, and gave him [to be] the head over all [things] to the church,
Eph 1:23 Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.


#4 YIKES YOU GOT ME HE IS NOT A COIN!

adjective
5.belonging to or characteristic of a sovereign or sovereignty; royal.
6.having supreme rank, power, or authority.
7.supreme; preeminent; indisputable: a sovereign right.
8.greatest in degree; utmost or extreme.
9.being above all others in character, importance, excellence, etc.
10.efficacious; potent: a sovereign remedy.

5 and 6 are givens so here is #7 having the preeminence

Col 1:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all [things] he might have the preeminence.

i believe the rest are also without saying, i can take time to show them but i doubt that any dispute it.


Some showing of this in the bible
Psa 103:19 The LORD hath prepared his throne in the heavens; and his kingdom ruleth over all.

kingdom here is this world meaning sovereign rule and used as sovergienty in the NASB
Strong's H4438 - malkuwth ) royalty, royal power, reign, kingdom, sovereign power

a) royal power, dominion

b) reign

c) kingdom, realm
 
Good post, GodpromisesReyes. Your dictionary definition of "sovereign" agrees with the Biblical descriptions of God.
 
2 Timothy 3:16-17 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.

You'll notice that the Scriptures make us complete. There is nothing we need to know, in order to be what God wants us to be, that is not found in His Word.

Supporters of non-Scrlptural doctrines, whether it is the sovereignty of God, irresistible grace, the Catholic priesthood, or Ruckmanism (the KJV IS the Word of God and it is sinful to use any other translation) have to rely on accusations to bolster their beliefs. The Bible alone will not support them.

Don't let the accusations get you down. Stick with God's Word, and you'll be "complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work."
 
Since "the sovereignty of God" is never mentioned in the Bible, the Bible never defines it. So it isn't surprising that people who believe in the sovereignty of God disagree on its definition.

One group says that God decided in advance who will go to Hell, and then, after they are born, He forces them to sin and says it is their fault.

Another group says that while God forces the elect to be saved, He doesn't force people to sin.

The first group says that the second group doesn't really believe in the sovereignty of God, and I agree.

The second group says that the first group makes God the author of sin, and therefor a sinner Himself, and I agree.

"Blasphemy!" hollers the first group, and I agree.

"Yes, but you're the ones who believe it!" responds the second group, and I agree.

"You don't understand Calvinism," explains the first group, and I agree.

Then someone else says that neither one of those definitions is taught in Scripture, and I agree.
 
Some of the future has to be unsettled and not necessarily foreknown by God simply because of man's dominion (free choice) given to him by God in Genesis 1:26.

The Lord regretted His decision to make Saul king of Israel. While having a king was never God's first choice, the appointment of Saul could have worked out well. Indeed, Scripture tells us that God had intended to bless him and his household for many generations (1 Samuel 13:13).

Unfortunately, Saul chose to forsake God's way and to pursue his own agenda. When Saul's heart changed, God's plan for him changed; he was no longer going to bless Saul. Instead, God removed him from his appointed office and allowed his sin to take its course. Saul had gotten so wicked that the Lord said, "I regret that I made Saul king, for he has turned back from following me" (1 Sam 15:10). The point is reiterated for emphasis several verses later, when Scripture says, "the Lord was sorry that he had made Saul king over Israel" (1 Sameul 15:35).

One must wonder how the Lord could truly experience regret for making Saul king if He was absolutely certain that Saul would act the way he did. Could God genuinely confess, "I regret that I made Saul king" if he could in the same breath also proclaim, "I was certain of what Saul would do when I made him king"? It does not seem reasonable.

Albert Finch
http://afministry.ning.com (New Studies Every Day)
 
God sees the future if he cant then why would ever know by the ot where and when the messiah came? and those things came to be.

i see it more this way, God knew saul would do that but allowed him and gave him the chance to repent and was broken by that failure.

our choice doesn't nagate God's power or ominiscience.
 
Isa 46:9 Remember the former things of old: for I [am] God, and [there is] none else; [I am] God, and [there is] none like me,


Isa 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times [the things] that are not [yet] done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

Isa 46:11 Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken [it], I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed [it], I will also do it.
 
Psa 65:4 Blessed is the man whom thou choosest, and causest to approach [unto thee], That he may dwell in thy courts: We shall be satisfied with the goodness of thy house, Thy holy temple.

Pro 16:4 The LORD hath made all [things] for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

Psa 119:91 They continue this day according to thine ordinances: for all [are] thy servants.

Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

Pro 21:1 ¶ The king's heart [is] in the hand of the LORD, [as] the rivers of water: he turneth it whithersoever he will.

Dan 4:17 This matter [is] by the decree of the watchers, and the demand by the word of the holy ones: to the intent that the living may know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will, and setteth up over it the basest of men.

Dan 4:32 And they shall drive thee from men, and thy dwelling [shall be] with the beasts of the field: they shall make thee to eat grass as oxen, and seven times shall pass over thee, until thou know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will.

Dan 4:35 And all the inhabitants of the earth [are] reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and [among] the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?

Rom 13:1 ¶ Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.

Act 4:28 For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.

Psa 75:7 But God [is] the judge: he putteth down one, and setteth up another.


Jhn 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Jhn 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
 
Scripture may suggest the future is partially open and God sometimes expresses uncerainty about it. For example, he asks Moses, "How long will this people despise me? And how long will they refuse to believe in me, in spite of all the signs that I have done among them?" (Numbers 14:11).
Similarly, we later read of God asking Hosea, "How long will they (Israel) be incapable of innocence?" (Hosea 8:5; 1 Kings 22:20). If God wonders about future issues, does this not imply that the future is to some extent unsettled?

Some suggest that in these verses the Lord was asking rhetorical questions, just as he had done when he asked Adam and Eve where they were (Gen. 3:8-9). Unlike God's question about location in Genesis, there is nothing in these texts or in the whole of Scripture that requires these questions to be rhetorical. Moreover, the fact that the lord continued for centuries, with much frustration, to try to get the Israelites not to "despise" Him and to be "innocent" suggests that the wonder expressed in these questions was genuine. The duration of the Israelites' stubbornness was truly an open issue.



Albert Finch
http://afministry.ning.com (New Studies Every Day)
 
I have noticed many speak of the how they should hold god with a sovereignty and reverence based on faith and that those who trust in humanism are bad. Just remember that when you read the 10 commandments because the majority of the ten commandments are based directly on humanistic ideals. Loving thy neighbor, thou shalt not kill,...ect
 
RaymondKroft said:
I have noticed many speak of the how they should hold god with a sovereignty and reverence based on faith and that those who trust in humanism are bad. Just remember that when you read the 10 commandments because the majority of the ten commandments are based directly on humanistic ideals. Loving thy neighbor, thou shalt not kill,...ect
Click to expand...

Though, the question needs to be asked, "Why are we told not to kill/steal/rape/ect.?" Is it because humans shouldn't do these things to humans? Or is it because we are all children of the Lord and He loves us all, and to kill/steal/rape/ect. another man is to kill/steal/rape/ect. one of God's loved ones. Just throwing it out there, but I think that is for a different topic!!!

Also, I believe that God is sovereign and I am not even sure what a Calvinist is... I just read the Bible and was like "WOW! God must be sovereign or something!"
 
RaymondKroft said:
I have noticed many speak of the how they should hold god with a sovereignty and reverence based on faith and that those who trust in humanism are bad. Just remember that when you read the 10 commandments because the majority of the ten commandments are based directly on humanistic ideals. Loving thy neighbor, thou shalt not kill,...ect
Click to expand...
uh, no, if they were then God wouldnt be God. its the reverse buddy.

the lord has written his law on the hearts of men, name the gentile.
 
No, the Ten Commandments are not based on humanistic ideals. The Ten Commandments require us to worship only one God, not to take His Name in vain, to honor our parents, not to commit adultery, and not to steal. All of these are contrary to humanistic principles.

And the most important teaching of the Ten Commandments is that we can't keep them. They are a schoolmaster, to bring us to Christ, which definitely contradicts the teachings of humanism.
 
Isaiah 5:4,5 --- "What move could have been done to My vineyard that I have not done in it? Why then, when I expected it to bring forth good grapes, did it bring forth wild grapes? And now, please let Me tell you what I will do to My vineward: I will take away it's hedge, and it shall be burned: and break down it's wall, and it shall be trampled down."

In Isaiah Chapter 5 the Lord describes Israel as His vineyard and Himself as its loving owner. He explains that, as the owner of the vineyard, He "expected" it to yield grapes, but it yielded wild grapes. Then He asks, "What more was there to do for my vineyard that I have not done in it? When I expected it to yield grapes, why did it yield wild grapes?" Because it unexpectedly failed to yeld grapes, the Lord sadly concludes, "I will remove its hedge, and it shall be devoured."

If everything is eternally certain to God as the Calvinist view of foreknowledge holds, how could the Lord twice say that he "expected" one thing to occur, only to have something different occur? ("what more was there to do?") for something He knew from all eternity would never happen? If we take the passage at face value, does it not imply that the future of Israel, the "vineyard" was not certain until they settled it by choosing to yield "wild grapes"?


Albert Finch
http://afministry.ning.com (New Studies Every Day)
 
"Perfect-being theology," is an approach seeking to build theology out of the initial description of God as perfect. From that secure starting point , it is believed that many othe features of God's character and activity can be logically deduced with certainty.

Calvinists (whether knowingly or otherwise) move across the steppingstones from "God is perfect" to:
God must be in perfect control to,
Perfect control requires determining every detail of reality.

In similar fashioning, we might step from "God's will is perfect" to:
God's will can never change to,
God will never adjust His actions in light of human behaviors.

Each step feels right, since each lies but a short logical step from the next. In other words, a perfect-being approach to creating Christian theology can easily generate a view of sovereignty that eliminates at the outset any possibility of human free agents.

Albert Finch
http://afministry.ning.com (New Studies Every Day)
 
Vince said:
Since the word "sovereignty" does not appear in the Bible, you can start off with this list:

1)There is no Biblical definition of the sovereignty of God
2) No accusations against people who don't believe in the sovereignty of God are listed in the Bible
3) You are never commanded to believe in the sovereignty of God
4) You are never forbidden to believe in the sovereignty of God
Click to expand...

Actually, depending on the translation that is used, the word "sovereignty" does appear. As I was reading through my NLT Bible last night I came upon Ezekiel and the NLT uses the word sovereign.

I have not done any further research into it, but the NLT's OT is usually pretty good at staying to Hebrew. I'll keep you up on what I find.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top