The spiritually dead during the millennium

[whirlwind]

From the thread, "Do Nice People Get Into Heaven ??," I commented.....

When the final trumpet sounds the door is shut. But, the dead, the spiritually dead will be taught. They will remain the dead until the end of the millennium. They, as all souls, will be in their incorruptible spirit body but they are not yet immortal so are considered....the dead.

Vic suggested....

What!?!?

Maybe you could systematically lay this out for us in another thread with scripture because I am just not seeing this in scripture at all!

Okay...here goes. :yes

1 Corinthians 15:50-52 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

• We know that "the dead" mentioned are not those that have physically died before us for they are already with the Father...
  
  [list:v29pg09x]Ecclesiastes 12:6 Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern. Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God Who gave it.

[/list:u:v29pg09x]

15:53-54 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, "Death is swallowed up in victory."

• The literally dead go to the Father upon their death. The spiritually dead, those being discussed in the above verses, are in corruptible flesh bodies. They MUST put on incorruption...their spirit bodies, to be "raised incorruptible"....so ALL ARE CHANGED in the twinkling of an eye. All souls are changed to our incorruptible spirit bodies and some, the elect, are not only in spirit, incorruptible, but they are also immortal! "This mortal shall have put on immortality." Not the spiritually dead though. They must face the millennium not knowing the outcome.

Revelation 20:4-5 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them; and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.

20:11-12 And I saw a great white throne, and Him That sat on it, from Whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. (15) And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

What happens during the millennium...what are the priests and the spiritually dead doing?

Ezekiel 44:6-7 And thou shalt say to the rebellious, even to the house of Israel, 'Thus saith the Lord GOD; 'O ye house of Israel, let it suffice you of all your abominations, In that ye have brought into My sanctuary strangers, uncircumcised in heart, and uncircumcised in flesh, to be in My sanctuary to pollute it, even My house, when ye offer My bread, the fat and the blood, and they have broken My covenant because of all your abominations.

44:10-11 And the Levites that are gone away far from Me, when Israel went astray, which went astray away from Me after their idols; they shall even bear their iniquity. Yet they shall be ministers in My sanctuary, having charge at the gates of the house, and ministering to the house: they shall slay the burnt offering and the sacrifice for the People, and they shall stand before them to minister unto them.

44:12-13 Because they ministered unto them before their idols, and caused the house of Israel to fall into iniquity; therefore have I lifted up Mine hand against them, saith the Lord GOD, and they shall bear their iniqity. And they shall not come near unto Me to do the office of a priest unto Me, nor to come near to any of My holy things, in the most holy place; but they shall bear their shame, and their abominations which they have committed.

44:15 But the priests the Levites, the sons of Zadok, that kept the charge of My sanctuary when the children of Israel went astray from Me, they shall come near to Me to minister unto Me, and they shall stand before Me to offer unto Me the fat and the blood, saith the Lord GOD:

44:23 And they shall teach My People the difference between the holy and profane, and cause them to discern between the unclean and the clean. And in controversy they shall stand in judgment; and they shall judge it according to My judgments: and they shall keep My laws and My statutes in all Mine assemblies; and they shall hallow My sabbaths.

 

[Vic C.]

Thanks for splitting the topic. I will try to follow, though this does go against my overall understanding of scripture, especially when it comes to body, spirit and soul.

Question: you quoted Eccl. 12:6-7. Lets look at vs. 7.

Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

In it's context, can you show us where this verse, in it's context, differentiates between the righteous and unrighteous?
_________________________________________________________________________

Next, to be spiritually dead is to be separated from God, whether one is dead or alive.

1 Corinthians 15:50-52. The dead spoken of in vs. 52 are those who are 'in' Christ and yes, they were dead (asleep). But, they are not spiritually dead, for their spirits have been quickened by the grace of God when HE blessed them with the gift of salvation.

Eph 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins:

Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

_______________________________________________________________________________

Where this idea that there will be 'spiritually dead' people resurrected before the millennium and are being taught "something" is an alien concept to me. What would make anyone think there is a "second" chance for anyone during the millennium? Their fate has already been sealed. They will be judged "according to their works" and those who are not found in the Book are cast away into this Lake of Fire (a subject of it's own). There is no mention of them being resurrected before this time.

Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

If there is a first resurrection, which consists of those who are righteous in God's eyes, then there must be a second resurrection and this one occurs after the millennium. They were dead before the millennium and remain in that state until the time of the second resurrection.

This happens after 1 Corinthians 15:50-52, not during. I think you are being tripped up by this:

flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God

Are you equating the Kingdom of God with the millennium? What do these verse tell us?

1 Cor 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
1 Cor 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
1 Cor 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
1 Cor 15:25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

The "all" in vs. 22 are those in Christ. The spiritually dead, the unrighteous ones, are not in Christ.

Vs. 23 tells us as much; "they that are Christ's". The spiritually dead and unrighteous ones do not belong to Christ. They are not immortal nor incorruptible.

1 Tim 1:15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
1 Tim 1:16 Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might show forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.
1 Tim 1:17 Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.

2 Tim 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,
2 Tim 1:10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:

Vs. 24 clears things up. It tells us when Jesus delivers the Kingdom to God. In the end. That would be after the millennium. All rule and authority and power then belongs to the Father. This is the Kingdom that will net be inherited by flesh and blood.

Vs. 25 says Jesus must rule until the time when all evil is under His feet. This is where the second resurrection and second death take place.
_____________________________________________________________________________

I'm not sure I'd connect Rev. 20:6 with Ezekiel 44. I just don't see the connection.

 

[whirlwind]

Thanks for splitting the topic. I will try to follow, though this does go against my overall understanding of scripture, especially when it comes to body, spirit and soul.

Question: you quoted Eccl. 12:6-7. Lets look at vs. 7.

Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

In it's context, can you show us where this verse, in it's context, differentiates between the righteous and unrighteous?

I see no difference in the "righteous and unrighteous" dying in any verse. All flesh returns to earth...all spirit returns to God. The difference happens once the spirit arrives.

From the parable taught in [Luke 16] it appears there will be a separation and "a great gulf fixed" between the righteous and the unrighteous once our flesh is destined to return to dust.
_________________________________________________________________________

Next, to be spiritually dead is to be separated from God, whether one is dead or alive.

1 Corinthians 15:50-52. The dead spoken of in vs. 52 are those who are 'in' Christ and yes, they were dead (asleep). But, they are not spiritually dead, for their spirits have been quickened by the grace of God when HE blessed them with the gift of salvation.

But Vic...that isn't written. No where does it say that the "dead spoken of" are those "who are in Christ." Paul specifies...."but we shall ALL be changed." Just before that verse he said....

• 1 Corinthians 15:39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.

He is speaking about all flesh being changed....all types of men, even those that are beasts!

[quote:1odrr0oq]Eph 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins:

Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

[/quote:1odrr0oq]

Those verses speak of the spiritually living...those "hath He quickened."
_______________________________________________________________________________

Where this idea that there will be 'spiritually dead' people resurrected before the millennium and are being taught "something" is an alien concept to me. What would make anyone think there is a "second" chance for anyone during the millennium? Their fate has already been sealed. They will be judged "according to their works" and those who are not found in the Book are cast away into this Lake of Fire (a subject of it's own). There is no mention of them being resurrected before this time.

Second chance? Many never had a first chance Vic. Consider if you had been raised in a Muslim nation, or of Hindu parents or of Christian parents that are so misled they pass snakes around each Sunday.

[quote:1odrr0oq]Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

If there is a first resurrection, which consists of those who are righteous in God's eyes, then there must be a second resurrection and this one occurs after the millennium. They were dead before the millennium and remain in that state until the time of the second resurrection.[/quote:1odrr0oq][/quote]


There are the elect (of the first resurection) and then there are the righteous (those that will be taught) and there are the wicked. Ask yourself why have a millennium? What is it's purpose? Why keep Satan locked up only to be released again? Who are the "priests of God" ministering to? Who do Jesus and the priests reign over for the thousand years? Who makes up the "nations" Satan goes out to deceive again? They are those that are taught between the "holy and profane, and cause them to discern between the unclean and the clean." [Ez.44:23]

This happens after 1 Corinthians 15:50-52, not during. I think you are being tripped up by this:

[quote:1odrr0oq]flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God

Are you equating the Kingdom of God with the millennium? What do these verse tell us?[/quote:1odrr0oq]


Our flesh cannot inherit the kingdom...it is our spirit that IS the kingdom of God and that kingdom is alive now.

• Luke 17:20-21 And when He was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, He answered them and said, "The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: Neither shall they say, Lo, here!' or, 'lo there!' for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you. (24) For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in His day.

He abides IN us and we in Him. The kingdom lives now in those that are shedding flesh, dying to self.

[quote:1odrr0oq]1 Cor 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
1 Cor 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
1 Cor 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
1 Cor 15:25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

The "all" in vs. 22 are those in Christ. The spiritually dead, the unrighteous ones, are not in Christ.[/quote:1odrr0oq]

I agree. Those verses are about "those in Christ."

Vs. 23 tells us as much; "they that are Christ's". The spiritually dead and unrighteous ones do not belong to Christ. They are not immortal nor incorruptible.

They are certainly not immortal but...all are incorruptible. Verses 22-23 are about "all in Christ." Verses 51 is about "all flesh and blood."

[quote:1odrr0oq]1 Tim 1:15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
1 Tim 1:16 Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might show forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.
1 Tim 1:17 Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.

2 Tim 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,
2 Tim 1:10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:

Vs. 24 clears things up. It tells us when Jesus delivers the Kingdom to God. In the end. That would be after the millennium. All rule and authority and power then belongs to the Father. This is the Kingdom that will net be inherited by flesh and blood.

Vs. 25 says Jesus must rule until the time when all evil is under His feet. This is where the second resurrection and second death take place.
_____________________________________________________________________________

I'm not sure I'd connect Rev. 20:6 with Ezekiel 44. I just don't see the connection. [/quote:1odrr0oq]

We know Revelation 20 is the millennium. Ezekiel 40 through the end is also about the millennium and the millennium temple. For instance, Ezekiel is told by the Lord....

• Ezekiel 43:7 And He said unto me, "Son of man, the place of My throne, and the place of the soles of My feet, where I will dwell in the midst of the children of Israel for ever; and My holy name, shall the house of Israel no more defile, neither they, or their kings, by their whoredom, nor by the carcases of their kings in their high places.

I probably shouldn't throw this in but.....the "soles of His feet," refer to His elect. He dwells IN them, in the temple!

 

[follower of Christ]

The literally dead go to the Father upon their death. The spiritually dead, those being discussed in the above verses, are in corruptible flesh bodies. They MUST put on incorruption...their spirit bodies, to be "raised incorruptible"....so ALL ARE CHANGED in the twinkling of an eye. All souls are changed to our incorruptible spirit bodies and some, the elect, are not only in spirit, incorruptible, but they are also immortal! "This mortal shall have put on immortality." Not the spiritually dead though. They must face the millennium not knowing the outcome.

Oh good grief.
1 Corinthians 15 there is ABOUT the RESURRECTION...
Ugh...this is getting very old....

Resurrection
This study will be about the different aspects of final resurrection. We will be looking at different passages in God's word and seeing how they fit together to determine what we can expect at resurrection.

1.0
Here firstly is a wonderfully clear passage from 1 Corinthians 15 that lays out a very details picture about resurrection of the dead and how this resurrection by Christ of all men defeats 'death' (of these bodies).
[quote:1bw00txe]Now if Christ is preached that He has been raised from the dead, how do some among you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? But if there is no resurrection of the dead, then Christ has not been raised. And if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is vain and your faith also is vain! And we are found to be false witnesses of God, because we bore witness concerning God, that He raised Christ, whom He did not raise--if in fact the dead are not raised. For if the dead are not raised, then neither has Christ been raised. And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is worthless; you are still in your sins! Then also those who have died in Christ have perished.

If in this life only we have hoped in Christ, we are of all men the most pitiable. But now Christ has been raised from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have died. For since by a man death came, also by a Man comes the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all will be made alive. But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then those who belong to Christ at His coming. Then will be the end, when He hands over the kingdom to God, even the Father, when He abolishes every ruler and every authority and power. For He must reign till He puts all His enemies under His feet. The last enemy that will be abolished is death. For "He has subjected all things under His feet." But when He says that "all things have been subjected," it is evident that this is except for Him who subjected all things to Him.

Now when all things are made subject to Him, then also the Son Himself will be subjected to Him who subjected all things to Him, in order that God may be all in all. Otherwise, what will they do who are being baptized for the dead, if the dead are not raised at all? Why are they also baptized for the dead? And why are we also in danger every hour? I affirm, by my boasting in you which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily. If, in the manner of men, I fought with beasts at Ephesus, what is the benefit to me? If the dead are not raised, "Let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we die!" Do not be deceived: "Evil associations corrupts good habits." Awake to righteousness, and do not sin, for some have no knowledge of God. I speak this to your shame.

But someone will say, "How are the dead raised? And with what sort of body do they come?" Fool, what you sow is not made alive unless it dies. And what you sow, you do not sow that body that will be, but a bare grain--perhaps wheat or some other grains. But God gives to it a body just as He desired, and to each of the seeds its own body. All flesh is not the same flesh, but there is a different kind of flesh for men, and another flesh for beasts, another for fish, and another for birds. And there are celestial bodies, and terrestrial bodies; but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for one star differs from another star in glory.

So also is the resurrection of the dead.
The body is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption.
It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory.
It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power.
It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.
There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
Thus also it is written, "The first man Adam became a living soul;" the last Adam became a life-giving spirit.
However, that which is spiritual is not first, but that which is natural, then that which is spiritual.
(1Co 15:12-46 EMTV)

We see in this previous passage that resurrection is the reviving of our bodies from the corruptible into the incorruptible. We will be raised with spiritual bodies instead of these worn down shells that are prone to sickness and death.

2.0
Eternal outcomes.
And this is what we will be resurrected TO...

Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth;
they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life;
and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
(Joh 5)

[/quote:1bw00txe]

 

[Vic C.]

From the parable taught in [Luke 16] it appears there will be a separation and "a great gulf fixed" between the righteous and the unrighteous once our flesh is destined to return to dust.

I do not take this passage as literal as many believers do. Although I do believe there is a Heaven and Hell, I don't believe that is the message behind this passage. Jesus used a story from their Babylonian Talmud (one they would be very familiar with) and turned it into a parable to drive home a specific message, which is conveyed in the four parables before it and in Luke 16:29-31.

But Vic...that isn't written. No where does it say that the "dead spoken of" are those "who are in Christ." Paul specifies...."but we shall ALL be changed." Just before that verse he said...

The context of ch. 15 is about and for believers. It was addressing the believers in Corinth and is meant for the followers of Jesus. I don't know of a single reputable scholar or commentator who would say nonbelievers are included. Paul spent a lot of time addressing the false teachings that were among the church in Corinth. The doctrine of the resurrection that Paul is teaching to the Corinthians is meant for those who belong to Christ.

It is evident throughout this chapter that Paul is speaking to and about born again (from above) believers.

Second chance? Many never had a first chance Vic. Consider if you had been raised in a Muslim nation, or of Hindu parents or of Christian parents that are so misled they pass snakes around each Sunday.

I agree this is a different subject. Read Romans 2:14-16 if you would like to know what I believe about those who have lived and died never knowing about Jesus. When I say second chance, it refers to those who have heard and rejected the Truth. Fate is sealed.

There are the elect (of the first resurection) and then there are the righteous (those that will be taught) and there are the wicked. Ask yourself why have a millennium? What is it's purpose? Why keep Satan locked up only to be released again? Who are the "priests of God" ministering to? Who do Jesus and the priests reign over for the thousand years? Who makes up the "nations" Satan goes out to deceive again? They are those that are taught between the "holy and profane, and cause them to discern between the unclean and the clean." [Ez.44:23]

Would it help to know I lean a bit towards a historicist/amillennial position? I'm not up on all the finer points of that view yet, but I'm learning. ;)

Understand, I do not believe there is any real scriptural proof of a third Temple, nor do I believe there is a need for one, considering we are God's temple. Of course the Jews want one; they do not know their Messiah yet nor does the Spirit indwell them. Nor do I believe the Lord will re institute any Temple ceremonies.

So the Ezekiel chapters must be referring to something else. Ezekiel envisioned a temple; it was built but not to the proper specifications so it didn't glorify God. But they eventually did 'raise' a Temple unlike any other before, except they didn't recognize Him as the temple. God fulfilled HIS promise; HE gave them an everlasting Temple, one that cannot ever be destroyed again. Now all's that's left for them is to accept the gift!

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I need to tend to other areas of the site and also to other work at work. It would be nice to hear others beliefs on this.

Vic

 

[Sinthesis]

1Cr 15:39 - All flesh [is] not the same flesh: but [there is] one [kind of] flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, [and] another of birds.

He is speaking about all flesh being changed....all types of men, even those that are beasts!

This particular corruption of scripture appears to be the foundation of an elitist doctrine that flies in the face of the basics of Christianity. Belief that all people are not ontologically equal, that some people are but beasts while it is only the elect who are truly men, makes a mockery of the parable of the Good Samaritan. Elitism is seductive, just like Satan.

 

[whirlwind]

1Cr 15:39 - All flesh [is] not the same flesh: but [there is] one [kind of] flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, [and] another of birds.

He is speaking about all flesh being changed....all types of men, even those that are beasts!

This particular corruption of scripture appears to be the foundation of an elitist doctrine that flies in the face of the basics of Christianity. Belief that all people are not ontologically equal, that some people are but beasts while it is only the elect who are truly men, makes a mockery of the parable of the Good Samaritan. Elitism is seductive, just like Satan.

There is mankind....all races of man. They/we are the "flesh of men." But as written, "there is another flesh of beasts." If you see elitism in that then you must take it up with our Father.

• Revelation 13:11-12 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon. And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.
  
  13:17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

We see that He warns us of the beast and it is He that tells us of "another flesh of beasts." Perhaps you believe those refererences are unrelated Scripture but...I don't. To each his own.

 

[follower of Christ]

There is mankind....all races of man. They/we are the "flesh of men." But as written, "there is another flesh of beasts." If you see elitism in that then you must take it up with our Father.

Sorry but the Father isnt the one perverting the INTENT that is simply showing that there are DIFFERENT kinds of flesh into some fallacy.
1 Cor 15 speaks about the resurrection of our bodies into spiritual bodies...and it USES the flesh of beasts and how there are DIFFERING sorts of bodies and flesh to show its intent.
By no means does this have ANY meaning beyond what the text presents.

 

[researcher]

Maybe it's the number of the beast. :o :P

 

[whirlwind]

There is mankind....all races of man. They/we are the "flesh of men." But as written, "there is another flesh of beasts." If you see elitism in that then you must take it up with our Father.

Sorry but the Father isnt the one perverting the INTENT that is simply showing that there are DIFFERENT kinds of flesh into some fallacy.
1 Cor 15 speaks about the resurrection of our bodies into spiritual bodies...and it USES the flesh of beasts and how there are DIFFERING sorts of bodies and flesh to show its intent.
By no means does this have ANY meaning beyond what the text presents.

Yes, He does show us that there are "differing sorts," as presented in the text! That was my point. You may see it as a dog, and a bird but I don't. As I said....to each his own. :D

 

[follower of Christ]

Yes, He does show us that there are "differing sorts," as presented in the text!

And He does so ONLY TO HELP EXPLAIN the fact that the RESURRECTION body wont be the SAME as the NATURAL body ;)
No hidden intents there

 

[whirlwind]

Yes, He does show us that there are "differing sorts," as presented in the text!

And He does so ONLY TO HELP EXPLAIN the fact that the RESURRECTION body wont be the SAME as the NATURAL body ;)
No hidden intents there

Then...be happy with what you see. If you believe that our Father used space in His letter to instruct us with the surprising revelation of the flesh of man being different than the flesh of a dog or a bird..... Okay by me.

 

[whirlwind]

From the parable taught in [Luke 16] it appears there will be a separation and "a great gulf fixed" between the righteous and the unrighteous once our flesh is destined to return to dust.

I do not take this passage as literal as many believers do. Although I do believe there is a Heaven and Hell, I don't believe that is the message behind this passage. Jesus used a story from their Babylonian Talmud (one they would be very familiar with) and turned it into a parable to drive home a specific message, which is conveyed in the four parables before it and in Luke 16:29-31.

In the parables are truths.

• Luke 8:10 And He said, "Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand.

[quote:2e07oa1o]But Vic...that isn't written. No where does it say that the "dead spoken of" are those "who are in Christ." Paul specifies...."but we shall ALL be changed." Just before that verse he said...

The context of ch. 15 is about and for believers. It was addressing the believers in Corinth and is meant for the followers of Jesus. I don't know of a single reputable scholar or commentator who would say nonbelievers are included. Paul spent a lot of time addressing the false teachings that were among the church in Corinth. The doctrine of the resurrection that Paul is teaching to the Corinthians is meant for those who belong to Christ.

It is evident throughout this chapter that Paul is speaking to and about born again (from above) believers.[/quote:2e07oa1o]


I must disagree. He speaks of the dead and the physically dead are with the Father when they die. So, there is another type of dead being taught....the spiritually dead.

[quote:2e07oa1o]Second chance? Many never had a first chance Vic. Consider if you had been raised in a Muslim nation, or of Hindu parents or of Christian parents that are so misled they pass snakes around each Sunday.

I agree this is a different subject. Read Romans 2:14-16 if you would like to know what I believe about those who have lived and died never knowing about Jesus. When I say second chance, it refers to those who have heard and rejected the Truth. Fate is sealed.

There are the elect (of the first resurection) and then there are the righteous (those that will be taught) and there are the wicked. Ask yourself why have a millennium? What is it's purpose? Why keep Satan locked up only to be released again? Who are the "priests of God" ministering to? Who do Jesus and the priests reign over for the thousand years? Who makes up the "nations" Satan goes out to deceive again? They are those that are taught between the "holy and profane, and cause them to discern between the unclean and the clean." [Ez.44:23]

Would it help to know I lean a bit towards a historicist/amillennial position? I'm not up on all the finer points of that view yet, but I'm learning. ;) [/quote:2e07oa1o]


Knowing you lean in that direction doesn't answer the questions raised.

Understand, I do not believe there is any real scriptural proof of a third Temple, nor do I believe there is a need for one, considering we are God's temple. Of course the Jews want one; they do not know their Messiah yet nor does the Spirit indwell them. Nor do I believe the Lord will re institute any Temple ceremonies.

So the Ezekiel chapters must be referring to something else. Ezekiel envisioned a temple; it was built but not to the proper specifications so it didn't glorify God. But they eventually did 'raise' a Temple unlike any other before, except they didn't recognize Him as the temple. God fulfilled HIS promise; HE gave them an everlasting Temple, one that cannot ever be destroyed again. Now all's that's left for them is to accept the gift!
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I need to tend to other areas of the site and also to other work at work. It would be nice to hear others beliefs on this.

Vic

 

[follower of Christ]

Yes, He does show us that there are "differing sorts," as presented in the text!

And He does so ONLY TO HELP EXPLAIN the fact that the RESURRECTION body wont be the SAME as the NATURAL body ;)
No hidden intents there

Then...be happy with what you see. If you believe that our Father used space in His letter to instruct us with the surprising revelation of the flesh of man being different than the flesh of a dog or a bird..... Okay by me.

Good grief. :crazy
I SEE what is STATED in that passage, friend...nothing more...as you yourself would do well in doing and cease inserting and adding your own distortions into the texts.

 

[follower of Christ]

I must disagree. He speaks of the dead and the physically dead are with the Father when they die. So, there is another type of dead being taught....the spiritually dead.

Fallacious NONSENSE !
1 Corinthians 15 shows VERY CLEARLY that it is about the the death of these mortal bodies and the resurrection body....that is the CONTEXT.
The 'spiritually dead', by default, is NON Christians....those who will ALSO BE resurrected to damnation.


Here it is again...this time maybe you might actually read something.....

Resurrection
This study will be about the different aspects of final resurrection. We will be looking at different passages in God's word and seeing how they fit together to determine what we can expect at resurrection.

1.0
Here firstly is a wonderfully clear passage from 1 Corinthians 15 that lays out a very details picture about resurrection of the dead and how this resurrection by Christ of all men defeats 'death' (of these bodies).
[quote:quyl0qeq]Now if Christ is preached that He has been raised from the dead, how do some among you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? But if there is no resurrection of the dead, then Christ has not been raised. And if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is vain and your faith also is vain! And we are found to be false witnesses of God, because we bore witness concerning God, that He raised Christ, whom He did not raise--if in fact the dead are not raised. For if the dead are not raised, then neither has Christ been raised. And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is worthless; you are still in your sins! Then also those who have died in Christ have perished.

If in this life only we have hoped in Christ, we are of all men the most pitiable. But now Christ has been raised from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have died. For since by a man death came, also by a Man comes the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all will be made alive. But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then those who belong to Christ at His coming. Then will be the end, when He hands over the kingdom to God, even the Father, when He abolishes every ruler and every authority and power. For He must reign till He puts all His enemies under His feet. The last enemy that will be abolished is death. For "He has subjected all things under His feet." But when He says that "all things have been subjected," it is evident that this is except for Him who subjected all things to Him.

Now when all things are made subject to Him, then also the Son Himself will be subjected to Him who subjected all things to Him, in order that God may be all in all. Otherwise, what will they do who are being baptized for the dead, if the dead are not raised at all? Why are they also baptized for the dead? And why are we also in danger every hour? I affirm, by my boasting in you which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily. If, in the manner of men, I fought with beasts at Ephesus, what is the benefit to me? If the dead are not raised, "Let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we die!" Do not be deceived: "Evil associations corrupts good habits." Awake to righteousness, and do not sin, for some have no knowledge of God. I speak this to your shame.

But someone will say, "How are the dead raised? And with what sort of body do they come?" Fool, what you sow is not made alive unless it dies. And what you sow, you do not sow that body that will be, but a bare grain--perhaps wheat or some other grains. But God gives to it a body just as He desired, and to each of the seeds its own body. All flesh is not the same flesh, but there is a different kind of flesh for men, and another flesh for beasts, another for fish, and another for birds. And there are celestial bodies, and terrestrial bodies; but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for one star differs from another star in glory.

So also is the resurrection of the dead.
The body is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption.
It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory.
It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power.
It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.
There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
Thus also it is written, "The first man Adam became a living soul;" the last Adam became a life-giving spirit. However, that which is spiritual is not first, but that which is natural, then that which is spiritual.
(1Co 15:12-46 EMTV)

We see in this previous passage that resurrection is the reviving of our bodies from the corruptible into the incorruptible. We will be raised with spiritual bodies instead of these worn down shells that are prone to sickness and death.

2.0
Eternal outcomes.
And this is what we will be resurrected TO...

Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth;
they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life;
and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
(Joh 5)

[/quote:quyl0qeq]

 

[whirlwind]

Then...be happy with what you see. If you believe that our Father used space in His letter to instruct us with the surprising revelation of the flesh of man being different than the flesh of a dog or a bird..... Okay by me.

Good grief. :crazy
I SEE what is STATED in that passage, friend...nothing more...as you yourself would do well in doing and cease inserting and adding your own distortions into the texts.

So you do believe He found it necessary to point out to us that fish have different flesh than we do?

• 1 Corinthians 15:37-38 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain: But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased Him, and to every seed his own body.
  
  Matthew 13:29-30 But he said, 'Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them. Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, 'Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.''"

Do you see any connection in the above two verses and the mention of wheat?

 

[Heneni]

Yikes, things are getting heated in here.

First of all, if people die and go to heaven , then why does god have to resurrect them and reintroduce their spirits into another spiritual body and take them back to heaven?

Second, there is a difference between those who are 'asleep' in christ and those who are 'dead in christ'. It is the dead in christ that are raised first.

Heneni

 

[follower of Christ]

So you do believe He found it necessary to point out to us that fish have different flesh than we do?

When EXPLAINING what He was explaining....about how different BODIES have differing kinds of 'flesh', yes, I absolutely see that it was completely in context to use ANY flesh and how it is different to express his point.

Its really amazing that such a simple concept escapes you.
There is a passage that comes to mind that I really think may apply here....

And as he was saying these things in his defense, Festus said with a loud voice, "Paul, you are out of your mind; your great learning is driving you out of your mind."
(Acts 26:24 ESV)

In the case of some, however, it may actually be an accurate statement.


.

 

[follower of Christ]

Second, there is a difference between those who are 'asleep' in christ and those who are 'dead in christ'. It is the dead in christ that are raised first.

Heneni

According to Jesus, the two are one and the same

These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep. Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well. Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep. Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.
(John 11:11-14 KJV)

 

[Heneni]

Second, there is a difference between those who are 'asleep' in christ and those who are 'dead in christ'. It is the dead in christ that are raised first.

Heneni

According to Jesus, the two are one and the same

These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep. Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well. Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep. Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.
(John 11:11-14 KJV)

Yeh, but was lazarus 'dead in christ' and 'asleep in christ'. Note the emphasis is on 'in christ'.