The spiritually dead during the millennium

[follower of Christ]

Second, there is a difference between those who are 'asleep' in christ and those who are 'dead in christ'. It is the dead in christ that are raised first.

Heneni

According to Jesus, the two are one and the same

These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep. Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well. Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep. Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.
(John 11:11-14 KJV)

Yeh, but was lazarus 'dead in christ' and 'asleep in christ'. Note the emphasis is on 'in christ'.

Point being that 'asleep' and 'dead' are used interchangeably, thus doctrine cannot be created from either as tho its something different.

 

[Heneni]

Point being that 'asleep' and 'dead' are used interchangeably, thus doctrine cannot be created from either as tho its something different.

Good point, now would you say that the dead out of christ, rises the same time as the dead in chirst?

And would the dead out of christ, be also considered to just be asleep? (many folk think they are burning in hell)

Heneni

 

[follower of Christ]

Point being that 'asleep' and 'dead' are used interchangeably, thus doctrine cannot be created from either as tho its something different.

Good point, now would you say that the dead out of christ, rises the same time as the dead in chirst?

And would the dead out of christ, be also considered to just be asleep? (many folk think they are burning in hell)

Heneni

What I think is that there are some points made in scripture that would seem to conflict in the matter as far as 'soul sleep' versus being immediately in one place or the other at death.
Ive looked at both major theories and realize that both are true in part when we understand the fact that once we are dead linear time frames no longer applies...ie many of the details of both theories are actually compatible when we remove linear time from the equation.

Ex. When a person dies and they leave linear time behind at what point do they enter 'eternity'...what 'date' is it there ?

I cant say much more than that without doing what I criticize others for doing....pushing a view that cannot be supported with scripture. But I do believe both theories are entirely compatible.

.

 

[Vic C.]

FOC, the above post was excellent! You found yourself in the same place I was a few years ago. I see both beliefs compelling and have seen both beliefs debated from scripture to the point of a stalemate. It was also at that point I shifted my focus of Luke's rich man parable from describing an actual event (which some claim) to a more profound lesson (moral). So, I normally keep myself out of the "absent from the body is to be present with the Lord" discussions (besides the actual verse doesn't quite say that-lol).

I also agree "dead in Christ" and "asleep in Christ" are very interchangeable.

Yikes, things are getting heated in here.

Nah, this is the way we are.


WW, sorry we can't seem to reach common ground. I'm quite convinced and agree with FOC, that nonbelievers aren't at all a part of Paul's context in ch 15.

1 Corinthians 15 shows VERY CLEARLY that it is about the the death of these mortal bodies and the resurrection body....that is the CONTEXT. The 'spiritually dead', by default, is NON Christians....those who will ALSO BE resurrected to damnation.

 

[whirlwind]

WW, sorry we can't seem to reach common ground. I'm quite convinced and agree with FOC, that nonbelievers aren't at all a part of Paul's context in ch 15.

1 Corinthians 15 shows VERY CLEARLY that it is about the the death of these mortal bodies and the resurrection body....that is the CONTEXT. The 'spiritually dead', by default, is NON Christians....those who will ALSO BE resurrected to damnation.

I must say Vic, you are a pleasure to disagree with, for I do disagree. Thank you for your truly gentle manner. You were an excellent choice as moderator!

 

[Vic C.]

Awww, thanks?

 

[Osgiliath]

Hmmm. Didn't even realize this topic switched forums. Thanks folks :bigfrown Anyway, my view remains the same. I must agree with Vic's logic (and MO) once again, and believe he is Scripturally accurate regarding this subject.

 

[Vic C.]

This is what transpired:

From the thread, "Do Nice People Get Into Heaven ??," I commented.....

When the final trumpet sounds the door is shut. But, the dead, the spiritually dead will be taught. They will remain the dead until the end of the millennium. They, as all souls, will be in their incorruptible spirit body but they are not yet immortal so are considered....the dead.

Vic suggested....

[quote:9v7h6u2z]What!?!?

Maybe you could systematically lay this out for us in another thread with scripture because I am just not seeing this in scripture at all!

... and here we are. :D


Okay...here goes. :yes[/quote:9v7h6u2z]

 

[guibox]

Whew! It's been a while since I've posted here!

Whirlwind, I don't understand how much plainer the entire passage of 1 Corinthians 15 can be. It is clearly describing the physical, bodily resurrection of the righteous preached throughout the entire scriptures. The cited passages from FOC are quite clear.

Your problem is that you have automatically assumed that the righteous are already in heaven, therefore, ! Cor 15 cannot be speaking about a resurrection for it makes no sense. In that you are correct. It makes no sense. One cannot exist with the other. The current belief of 'go to heaven at death as a disembodied soul' is completely incompatible with the 1 Cor 15 passage.

William Tyndale felt the same way:

"And ye, in putting the departed souls in heaven, hell, and purgatory, destroy the arguments wherein Christ and Paul prove the resurrection... and again, if the souls be in heaven... then what cause is there of the resurrection?"..."The true faith setteth forth the resurrection, which we be warned to look for every hour. The heathen philosophers, denying that, sis set forth the souls did ever live. And the Pope joineth the spirtual doctrine of Christ and the fleshly doctrine of philosophers together; things so contrary that they cannot agree, no more than the spirit and the flesh do in a Christian man. And because the fleshly-mined Pope consenteth unto heathen doctrine, therefore he corrupteth the scripture to establish it."

However, one doesn't need to rearrange and reinterpret 1 Cor 15, but to re-examine the fallacy of the immortality of the soul and rewards and punishments at death.

Paul makes it quite clear that if Christ wasn't raised then the dead don't rise. If the dead don't rise then they have PERISHED in their graves because sin and death have not fully been conquered.

Without the resurrection there is no LIFE...PERIOD. If in fact my soul lives on in heaven or hell, then I have conquered death and Paul is made to be a liar for life is only realized in the resurrection at the end of time, not at my physical death.

 

[Vic C.]

Whew! It's been a while since I've posted here!

Hey D, yeah, it's been a while.

 

[whirlwind]

Whew! It's been a while since I've posted here!

It is nice to have you back.

Whirlwind, I don't understand how much plainer the entire passage of 1 Corinthians 15 can be. It is clearly describing the physical, bodily resurrection of the righteous preached throughout the entire scriptures. The cited passages from FOC are quite clear.

Your problem is that you have automatically assumed that the righteous are already in heaven, therefore, ! Cor 15 cannot be speaking about a resurrection for it makes no sense. In that you are correct. It makes no sense. One cannot exist with the other. The current belief of 'go to heaven at death as a disembodied soul' is completely incompatible with the 1 Cor 15 passage.

ALL souls will been changed. I don't understand what you are saying. Are you one that believes our tired, old flesh bodies are going to get up and fly to heaven one day?

William Tyndale felt the same way:

[quote:2ili0n8r]"And ye, in putting the departed souls in heaven, hell, and purgatory, destroy the arguments wherein Christ and Paul prove the resurrection... and again, if the souls be in heaven... then what cause is there of the resurrection?"..."The true faith setteth forth the resurrection, which we be warned to look for every hour. The heathen philosophers, denying that, sis set forth the souls did ever live. And the Pope joineth the spirtual doctrine of Christ and the fleshly doctrine of philosophers together; things so contrary that they cannot agree, no more than the spirit and the flesh do in a Christian man. And because the fleshly-mined Pope consenteth unto heathen doctrine, therefore he corrupteth the scripture to establish it."

However, one doesn't need to rearrange and reinterpret 1 Cor 15, but to re-examine the fallacy of the immortality of the soul and rewards and punishments at death.

Paul makes it quite clear that if Christ wasn't raised then the dead don't rise. If the dead don't rise then they have PERISHED in their graves because sin and death have not fully been conquered. [/quote:2ili0n8r]


Actually, it doesn't say that at all, or least I sure don't see it.

Without the resurrection there is no LIFE...PERIOD. If in fact my soul lives on in heaven or hell, then I have conquered death and Paul is made to be a liar for life is only realized in the resurrection at the end of time, not at my physical death.

Paul speaks of two events in chapter 15. One everyone experiences. "This corruptible must put on incorruption." Flesh is gone, everyone is changed. Some of those also put on immortality. They are those of the first resurrection. All others, although in an incorruptible body, are NOT IMMORTAL. They are still liable to die the second death...that of their soul. The one that matters!

 

[Drew]

Guibox, my old friend - the grip of Greek Platonic dualism is indeed strong...... ;)

 

[guibox]

Guibox, my old friend - the grip of Greek Platonic dualism is indeed strong...... ;)

Indeed it is my friend, but we must continue to fight the fight of biblical literacy in those who can't seem to see through their blinders. Good to 'see' you and Vic again.

I have been spending most of my time on a conservative SDA forum trying hard to bring some rationality and light to the conservative brethren of my faith. It has been a difficult experience!

It is refreshing to come back and see different views from my own in different faiths.

Hopefully i will have more time to post here.