Bible Study The Straight and narrow now looks curvy like a snake.

[smaller]

Hi,

Isn't it a known fact that the flesh is contrary to the spirit? Is there something new I don't know about?
Aren't you speaking to the sin nature in man?

Pretty much that's where it goes.

So are you saying each church just wants to hold on to its throne, so to speak?

Believers in general lean to justifying their contrariness. And that is an action of that contrariness. They eat wafers to make themselves feel entirely good about themselves or a host of other exercises to buy their ways past the obvious, like "right doctrines" or what have you. Even if any sect had perfect doctrines and perfect understandings every member would retain their contrariness regardless and it would still be against the Spirit, regardless.

You're sounding a bit mysterious to me and I don't think there's anything mysterious in what you're speaking of. Unless, there's something I don't know about, as I said above.

Wondering

In short, there will be no perfect church on earth in the visible senses, because of contrariness that "all" have and retain.

What we end up with is the constant futile chase to avoid the obvious. "Oh, if only our contrariness would all agree!" lol with any of that.

I might propose that God in Christ is perhaps more interested in simple honesty. We'll find NONE of that with contrariness. And, if any believer picks this up, no one would listen anyway. Believers generally speaking are NOT interested in the scriptural facts of contrariness, unless it is that contrariness of someone else.

Never our own.

IN this way we RUN AWAY from Jesus as fast as possible.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I chalk up the bulk of the difficulties in the "visible churches" to the fact that we "all" have flesh that is contrary to the Spirit. This contrariness is manifested in DIVISIONS.

I chalk up the bulk of the difficulties to the fact that very few churches lead believers into the manifest presence and fellowship of the Spirit. Instead, they defer to doctrines and cold dead ceremonies that deceive people into thinking they have a living relationship with God, as if that is what constitutes a vibrant, living relationship with God.

"1 Therefore if there is any encouragement in Christ, if there is any consolation of love, if there is any fellowship of the Spirit, if any affection and compassion, 2 make my joy complete by being of the same mind, maintaining the same love, united in spirit, intent on one purpose." (Philippians 2:1-2 NASB)


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[smaller]

The sad part is that for a very long time UNbelievers observe the churches members, and make the truthful observations that the people therein are hypocrites.

And they are RIGHT. Sad, but true.

Even blinded unbelievers can see the facts of us. But we can't. And many many people leave the "visible" church, because of this. Not that they themselves would perceive their own contrariness either, but they can see the contrariness of others. This is a common phenomena of contrariness.

God has actually promised division. Contrariness will not and can not coalesce. It simply will not happen.

So, what we see in divisions are actually the REALITY of God working, presently.

Luke 12:
51 Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division:
52 For from henceforth there shall be five in one house divided, three against two, and two against three.
53 The father shall be divided against the son, and the son against the father; the mother against the daughter, and the daughter against the mother; the mother in law against her daughter in law, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.

There is The Promise of Jesus, manifested NOW.

 

[smaller]

I chalk up the bulk of the difficulties to the fact that very few churches lead believers into the manifest presence and fellowship of the Spirit. Instead, they defer to doctrines and cold dead ceremonies that deceive people into thinking they have a living relationship with God, as if that is what constitutes a vibrant, living relationship with God.

"1 Therefore if there is any encouragement in Christ, if there is any consolation of love, if there is any fellowship of the Spirit, if any affection and compassion, 2 make my joy complete by being of the same mind, maintaining the same love, united in spirit, intent on one purpose." (Philippians 2:1-2 NASB)
.

I have spent some considerable time with fervent fervent believers. Believers who operate without any question, in the Spirit. Guess what? Sooner or later, they also DIVIDE.

 

[smaller]

It is much easier for me to believe Jesus. And even to see Him Working in the Now, in this way. I mean really, it's set right before our faces to believe:

Luke 12:
51 Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division:

Is this so hard to see, given the abundance of open evidence?

Uh, no. It's one of the more easy things to believe and to perceive, right here and now.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I have spent some considerable time with fervent fervent believers. Believers who operate without any question, in the Spirit. Guess what? Sooner or later, they also DIVIDE.

Define 'fervent'.
Operate in the Spirit in regard to what?

I'm talking about people who know God according to the fruit of the Spirit (love, joy, peace...). You can be sure they will seek to be separated more and more from those who do not know God according to the fruit of the Spirit and will seek out those who do. They will be completely repulsed by the church of the world. And they will barely tolerate the reamining churches that do not make the fruit of the Spirit the epitome of what it means to know God. So I agree, they most certainly will divide away from the false and/or misguided even within the true church. Contrariness of the flesh is not the reason for that division. Love and devotion for God is. That is the division Jesus was talking about.

 

[smaller]

Jesus Promised "division" to ONE HOUSE.

There shall be ONE HOUSE, DIVIDED.

That house is us, housed in our contrary to the Spirit, flesh.

You can take His Promise to the Spiritual Bank, because it is a sure of a matter as there is in the scriptures.

Paul saw himself no differently. Paul, an Apostle, was himself, DIVIDED:

Luke 12:52
For from henceforth there shall be five in one house divided, three against two, and two against three.

Yes, a man, a person, any person is, in the allegorical terms of the Spirit, A HOUSE.

Luke 11:24
When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest; and finding none, he saith, I will return unto my house whence I came out.

Galatians 5:
17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

Paul did NOT hide or cover up his CONTRARINESS, but exposed it, openly, for us to see.

Paul was a DIVIDED man, according to The Word of God in Christ.

 

[smaller]

Define 'fervent'.
Operate in the Spirit in regard to what?

I'm talking about people who know God according to the fruit of the Spirit (love, joy, peace...). You can be sure they will seek to be separated more and more from those who do not know God according to the fruit of the Spirit and will seek out those who do. They will be completely repulsed by the church of the world. And they will barely tolerate the reamining churches that do not make the fruit of the Spirit the epitome of what it means to know God. So I agree, they most certainly will divide away from the false and/or misguided even within the true church. Contrariness of the flesh is not the reason for that division. Love and devotion for God is. That is the division Jesus was talking about.

What I'm observing Jethro, is that even such have the contrariness of the flesh, which WILL manifest, because it is there and it is CONTRARY to the Spirit.

 

[smaller]

"Oh, if only our contrariness to the Spirit would agree."

It's just not going to happen.

How many "postures" of faith revolve around this vanity? This FUTILE attempt?

It will not matter what posture is upheld. Contrariness is a hard fact.

"Oh, my contrariness believes (this posture or that posture.)"

So what? It's still contrary.

That contrariness can make any claims it wants to, but it will NEVER submit to the reality of being contrary to the Spirit, because THAT is the simple truth of the matters.

 

[smaller]

Believers who are "born again" will always read only one side of the ledgers of God in Christ. The parts they like. And they likewise discard the parts that they don't like, and they lay them on other people.

Here is what happens when people are born again:

Luke 20:18
Whosoever shall fall upon that stone shall be broken; but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.

The entirety of that statement applies to US. Not just the first part.

 

[smaller]

Mr. Summers lamented the fact that back in the old days our country followed blue laws and didn't allow filth on teevee.

Keeping our contrariness "in check," I believe, is admirable for sure.

But let's not kid ourselves by keeping a lid on it, as if it wasn't there at the time or here now.

It is when we deny having contrariness to the Spirit, that we fall into headlong into hypocrisy.

 

[smaller]

"My contrariness does this (insert rotating spiritual flavor of the day) in the name of God."

So what? It's still contrary.

 

[GodsGrace]

Pretty much that's where it goes.


Believers in general lean to justifying their contrariness. And that is an action of that contrariness. They eat wafers to make themselves feel entirely good about themselves or a host of other exercises to buy their ways past the obvious, like "right doctrines" or what have you. Even if any sect had perfect doctrines and perfect understandings every member would retain their contrariness regardless and it would still be against the Spirit, regardless.



In short, there will be no perfect church on earth in the visible senses, because of contrariness that "all" have and retain.

What we end up with is the constant futile chase to avoid the obvious. "Oh, if only our contrariness would all agree!" lol with any of that.

I might propose that God in Christ is perhaps more interested in simple honesty. We'll find NONE of that with contrariness. And, if any believer picks this up, no one would listen anyway. Believers generally speaking are NOT interested in the scriptural facts of contrariness, unless it is that contrariness of someone else.

Never our own.

IN this way we RUN AWAY from Jesus as fast as possible.

Smaller,

A pastor in a Nazarene church I went to back in the '80's used to say that if a perfect church DID exist, the minute "you" join it, it won't be perfect anymore.

I know what you mean here:
Believers in general lean to justifying their contrariness

So, I'm good up till here. but the scriptures regarding the division. They're meant for the believers and the unbelievers. And we certainly are divided in that respect. I also see division within the Body of Christ. How many splinter churches are there because of some disagreement, most times minor since we agree on all the major things, and they just cannot stay with the main denomination.

Our flesh will always get in the way of our spirit. I personally don't know anyone who lives only in the spirit. We all sin. And will continue to do so. If you say you do not sin, you are a liar... 1 John 1:8. You call it contrariness, to me it's still sin. Most probably the sin of pride.

Wondering.

 

[OzSpen]

I had a couple of friends here yesterday. We were talking about Mathew 24 and also 2 Peter 2:1...
Let me tell you that I live in the land of the Pope and there is more atheism here than maybe even in Australia. Except maybe for the Northern countries and France.

There will always be a remnant...

And that remnant is necessary so that the road doesn't take a full 180 degree turn. Or is it 360? I'm not a mathematician, but you know what I mean!

Wondering

It's 180 degrees that will take you in the opposite direction.

I have met a few 'atheists' who have admitted that they haven't checked all the evidence in the world to make them absolutely sure there is no God. In the end they have admitted to me that the more accurate term would be that they are agnostics.

It doesn't matter whether one is in the Vatican, Norway or downtown Brisbane, those who are prepared to admit they are openly evangelical Christians who believe and practice evangelism, are few and far between.

Yes, there will be a remnant - from the Vatican to Brisbane to Guinea and Iran.

May the Lord keep us faithful.

Oz

 

[smaller]

Our flesh will always get in the way of our spirit. I personally don't know anyone who lives only in the spirit. We all sin. And will continue to do so. If you say you do not sin, you are a liar... 1 John 1:8. You call it contrariness, to me it's still sin. Most probably the sin of pride.

Wondering.

I term the reality of it contrary. As noted prior there is a host of scriptural "explanations" about how/why this contrariness is a reality fact. And yes, it does revolve around "having" sin indwelling the flesh. It is this, that will continue to divide and plague "the churches."

And that largely because there is a general lack of basic honesty, which is a FRUIT of the Spirit, among the members in general. We tend to want all our spiritual fruit juicy and sweet, but there are some aspects of spiritual truth that are not friendly to that which is contrary.