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[_ Old Earth _] the sun orbits the earth?

Hi Sparra'

"An idea that is not falsifiable may be true, but it is not a scientific theory."
"An idea that is not falsifiable may be true, but it is not a scientific theory."
"An idea that is not falsifiable may be true, but it is not a scientific theory."
"An idea that is not falsifiable may be true, but it is not a scientific theory."

:confused: :shame2

I must've read that line a hundred times and I still can't work out what it means/////////LOLZ!

I'm obviously no where near as brilliant as your bro.

The theory of relativity shows (proves to many) that there is no absolute point of reference. Imagine two space ships that have no stars around them and no other point of reference other than themselves. One (spaceship "A") considers itself to be at rest and measures the speed of the approaching spaceship. BUT Spaceship "B" also considers itself to be at rest and also measures the speed of Spaceship "A".

Both agree about the net velocity but disagree about who is "moving". That's only part of what is postulated in the Theory of Relativity (the General Theory doesn't take gravity into account - that was discussed in the Special theory of Relativity, later) of course - but the point is that neither spaceship can falsify the opposing theory. Neither can prove the other wrong. Either could be correct. It could also be true that the two spaceships are both moving (relative to an outside point of reference).

Better?

Here's more if you like this kind of stuff:
Understanding Relativity
or
How to do Effective Thought Experiments

by Ian M. Sefton, School of Physics, The University of Sydney
 
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The theory of relativity shows (proves to many) that there is no absolute point of reference. Imagine two space ships that have no stars around them and no other point of reference other than themselves. One (spaceship "A") considers itself to be at rest and measures the speed of the approaching spaceship. BUT Spaceship "B" also considers itself to be at rest and also measures the speed of Spaceship "A".

Yeah or someone in spaceship A or spaceship B could simply put their hand out of the window of the spaceship (obviously were talking hypotheticals so this is possible) and "feel" if they are moving. If your moving there will be a "wind". This was the whole point of the Michelson-Morley experiment.

It's not about relativity. It's about reality.

Doc.

By the way...guys...I've been having more luck inserting links by clicking the "insert link" button and do it that way rather than just posting the web address into your post.
 
Yeah or someone in spaceship A or spaceship B could simply put their hand out of the window of the spaceship (obviously were talking hypotheticals so this is possible) and "feel" if they are moving. If your moving there will be a "wind". This was the whole point of the Michelson-Morley experiment.

It's not about relativity. It's about reality.

Doc.

By the way...guys...I've been having more luck inserting links by clicking the "insert link" button and do it that way rather than just posting the web address into your post.

No, their thought about "the non-existent aether wind" does not apply to Einstein's thought experiments. Michelson-Morley Experiment
 
No the lie is that you say ALL the results taken together show that the Earth moves even after statistical analysis was applied.
Where did I say all the results did this? I simply pointed to a conclusion drawn by Michelson and Morley in the paper they published. Sorry you don't like it and have to engage in calumny to make your argument.
It's true that 1 or 2 INDIVIDUAL results shows very small indications of an aether wind (much much lower than you would expect) but those figures were rejected after statistical error was applied. You know they do that yeah???? In real science? Statistical error? You take all your individual results and then you take away the top few and the bottom few then you calculate the mean. Its called science.
Which still doesn't alter the stated observation in the relevant paper. The Michelson-Morley experiment showed that Earth is not moving through the ether, but was nevertheless moving, the most obvious inference to be drawn therefore being that the ether did not exist.
Can you document these errors from a source rather than just saying it?
Given your unwillingness to clarify things I have asked you to clarify, I see no reason why I should run around after you.
A statistical error.
And you know this how? If zero velocity was indicated, would you regard this as a 'statistical error' also?
Wow are you actually bringing real science to the table?
And?
Can you summarise the experiment for me first and then I might look it up if its pertinent.
See my comment three paragraphs earlier.
No thanks. I dont exercise quackery.
Or perhaps you realize the implications for this silly idea about an observed unmoving North Star meaning that Earth is not orbiting the Sun. Since when has simple trigonometry been 'quackery'. You can run away from the conclusion this simple exercise in geometry allows us to draw about whether or not there would be any observed difference in the position of Polaris if Earth was orbiting the Sun or not (clearly the observable distance would be virtually negligible to all intents and purposes), but that conclusion is obvious and unavoidable.
I dont need to explain it cos no-ones explained how it does'nt neutralize relativistic effects.
Umm, the point was that the experiment does neutralize relativistic effects because of its configuration, so your comment doesn't make much sense. Can I guess why you don't like explaining anything that causes a problem for assertions about certain experiments providing evidence for a stationary Earth when they do no such thing? I imagine it's the same reason why you don't like considering simple exercises in trigonometry either just in case they lead you to reflect on the silliness of a particular assertion about Polaris.
Thanks but you forgot to mention that the representation is not just that of Bowden but of the scientists who actually carried out the experiments themselves.
Nope, it's Bowden's selective and misleading interpretations and representations of the conclusions and implications of those experiments that is significant here, as demonstrated by the points I raised earlier.
And also the entire real scientific community which excludes theoretical science falsely so called.
What you seem to mean is that careful consideration of the evidence of the experiments referred to and subsequent experiments carried out and observations made over the eight or more decades since the ones you are referring to show unequivocally that Bowden's (and your) assertions about a stationary Earth are quite wrong.
That reminds me.....whats your interpretation of this verse?
I have no idea what you are driving at. Eschew any science which might disagree with Paul? Interestingly, not all Bible translations use the word 'science', unsurprisingly as the usage we understand today is relatively modern and, for example, in Latin scientia means knowledge.
He said what he said. Which is that there is no real scince which proves the Earth moves. Only theoretical science.
So we still don't know what he actually said beyond your initial extract and somewhat contentious summary of the remainder of Pauli's comments. Rather like the ellipsis in the Michelson quote you gave to substantiate your argument and that you haven't filled in for us yet.
 
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So strangelove what do you think is the reason so many people who say they believe the word of God literally don't want to acknowledge your view? I have seen posters who in every other topic slam science, but in this one they point to it. On one hand they say the verses that point to the Earth being the unmoving physical center of the universe are poetry, but what they like to believe in is literal. How do you counter this?

It appears your fellow literalists are throwing you under the bus.
Here is the problem: taking the Bible literally also includes understanding what the writers actually meant. Hence, as one who does take the Bible literally, I realize that although certain language was used to describe the sun in relationship to the earth, it is language from the perspective of a viewer on earth. The sun merely appears to rise and set, but that in no way means when one reads in Scripture that "the world stands firm," "the sun stands still," or that the sun rises and sets, that the Bible is making scientific statements about the universe.

To make those passages support geocentric theory does a great disservice to both science and Holy Scripture. It is just very poor biblical interpretation.
 
Where did I say all the results did this? I simply pointed to a conclusion drawn by Michelson and
Morley in the paper they published. Sorry you don't like it and have to engage in calumny to make your argument.

So regardless of anything else, the experiment showed that Earth moved.

You continue to bear false witness. Here is a link to the experiment - en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Relative_Motion_of_the_Earth_and_the_Luminiferous_Ether

Here is Michelson's own words:

"The interpretation of these results is that there is no displacement of the interference bands. The result of the hypothesis of a stationary ether is thus shown to be incorrect, and the necessary conclusion follows that the hypothesis is erroneous.

This conclusion directly contradicts the explanation of the phenomenon of aberration which has been hitherto generally accepted, and which presupposes that the earth moves through the ether, the latter remaining at rest."

How do you reverse all of this to mean that Michelson thinks his experiment shows the Earth moves?

Which still doesn't alter the stated observation in the relevant paper. The Michelson-Morley experiment showed that Earth is
not moving through the ether,

Ah there we go. Some truth at last.

but was nevertheless moving,

No the experiment did not show that.

the most obvious inference to be drawn therefore being that the ether did not exist.

Ok your free to state that aether doesnt exist but your false statements above are pure lies. As to the non-existance of a medium for light to travel through in space being completely against all logic, I offer this informative paper tackling the
issue. Please find error in it. - haroldaspden.com/tutorials/05.htm

Given your unwillingness to clarify things I have asked you to clarify, I see no reason why I should run around after you.

We'll deduce from that then that you have no documentation.

And you know this how? If zero velocity was indicated, would you regard this as a 'statistical error' also?

No I would regard it as a valid individual result. Just like a measured velocity would be a valid individual result. Then you apply statistics to all the results and base your conclusions on the outcome. Is this too hard for you to grasp?

Or perhaps you realize the implications for this silly idea about an observed unmoving North Star meaning that Earth is not
orbiting the Sun. Sine when has simple trigonometry been 'quackery'.

It's quackey when two points of the triangle (Earth and a star) are real and the third point (the assumptive position of the Earth on the other side of its unproven orbit)....is imaginary. Like I said....quack quack.

You can run away from the conclusion this simple exercise in geometry allows us to draw about whether or not there would be any observed difference in the position of Polaris if Earth was orbiting the Sun or not (clearly the observable distance would be virtually negligible to all intents and purposes), but that conclusion is obvious and unavoidable.

It's a simple exercise in false geometry.

Nope, it's Bowden's selective and misleading interpretations and representations of the conclusions and implications of
those experiments that is significant here, as demonstrated by the points I raised earlier.

How about other notables? Not Bowden, other people of standing?

Dutch physicist Hendrik Lorentz (of the Lorentz translation equations, foundation of the General Theory of Relativity) noted that:

"
Briefly, everything occurs as if the Earth were at rest..."

His great contemporary Henri Poincaré confessed:

"A great deal of research has been carried out concerning the influence of the Earth's movement. The results were always negative (...) We do not have any means of discovering whether or not we are carried along in a uniform motion of
translation..."

Arthur Eddington dared to contemplate that:

"There was just one alternative; the earth's true velocity through space might happen to have been nil."

Lincoln Barnett agrees:

"No physical experiment ever proved that the Earth actually is in motion."

Astronomer Sir Fred Hoyle says:

"Today we cannot say that the Copernican theory is "right" and the Ptolemaic theory is "wrong" in any meaningful sense (...) Science today is locked into paradigms. Every avenue is blocked by beliefs that are wrong, and if you try to get anything published in a journal today, you will run up against a paradigm, and the editors will turn you down."

Are you cleverer than these people Kalvan, that you can definatively state that real experimentation shows that the Earth moves? No offence but I think not.

I have no idea what you are driving at. Eschew any science which might disagree with Paul. Interestingly, not all Bible translations use the word 'science', unsurprisingly as the usage we understand today is relatively modern and, for example. in Latin scientia means knowledge.

I'm just asking for your interpretation of that verse.

So we still don't know what he actually said beyond your initial extract and somewhat contentious summary of the remainder of Pauli's comments. Rather like the ellipsis in the Michelson quote you gave to substantiate your argument and that you haven't filled in for us yet.

The part I quoted Pauli:

Wolfgang Pauli admitted:

"The failure of the many attempts to measure terrestrially any effects of the earth's motion on physical phenomena allows us to.........(he then goes into a long section on how we must turn to theoretical science)

......Is simply showing that Pauli accepted that any scientific attempts to show the Earth moved have failed. If you want to read his entire book...go here -

books.google.co.uk/books?id=7xrL7h10XkQC&pg=PA4&lpg=PA4&dq=Wolfgang+Pauli+The+failure+of+the+many+attempts+to+measure+terrestrially+any+effects+of+the+earth's+motion&source=bl&ots=co2u6wvy_g&sig=Z5Iz9urz34-c9P69A5DoPeqafHk&hl=en&ei=X_ieTPvjNMyecYH62L8J&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CBUQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false
 
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You continue to bear false witness. Here is a link to the experiment - The Relative Motion of the Earth and the Luminiferous Ether - Wikisource
Your link does not work, so your accusation remains a calumny. Again, I simply referred to a conclusion drawn by Michelson and Morley in the paper they published. How is this 'bearing false witness', other than to point out that whatever inferences you draw from their work are not necessarily the same as they drew themselves?
Here is Michelson's own words:

How do you reverse all of this to mean that Michelson thinks his experiment shows the Earth moves?
How do you interpret them to mean that Earth does not move in an orbit around the Sun, especially in light of the fact that Michelson and Morley reported that their experimental results showed a (less than expected) velocity in respect of Earth's motion in orbit?
Ah there we go. Some truth at last.
If motion through ether cannot be detected, yet nevertheless orbital velocity can, the most likely inference to be drawn is that the ether is wholly imaginary.
No the experiment did not show that.
And yet Michelson and Morley appear to think that it did. Whose opinion should I prefer? Theirs or yours?
Ok your free to state that aether doesnt exist but your false statements above are pure lies.
How quick you are to accuse someone of lying because they do not agree with the interpretations you draw from particular experiments and papers. Have you never heard of the concept of an honest difference of opinion? Throwing accusations of lying and falsehoods around could be considered ad hominem attacks. How Christian is this?
As to the non-existance of a medium for light to travel through in space being completely against all logic, I offer this informative paper tackling the issue. Please find error in it.
Your link does not work. In the lab we can create vacuums, place a light-source in that vacuum and observe that light travels from one side of the vacuum to the other. What is the medium that allows light to travel through this vacuum? Perhaps you could explain the logical foundation of this?
We'll deduce from that then that you have no documentation.
Deduce what you like, but I'm still not running around after you. Your comment stands in the much same way as I have noted that you have no explanation to offer of, for example, the various 'massive assumptions' you have accused me of making
No I would regard it as a valid individual result. Just like a measured velocity would be a valid individual result. Then you apply statistics to all the results and base your conclusions on the outcome. Is this too hard for you to grasp?
Is statistics a magic word that you can shake at anyone who disagrees with you? I asked you how you concluded that this result that you don't particularly like was a statistical error? Michelson and Morley don't seem to have considered it to be a statistical error or they would not have referred to Earth's motion in their paper.
It's quackey when two points of the triangle (Earth and a star) are real and the third point (the assumptive position of the Earth on the other side of its unproven orbit)....is imaginary. Like I said....quack quack.
This is a theoretical exercise designed to make you explain to us what perceptible difference there would be in the position of Polaris if (a) Earth was stationary or (b) Earth was orbiting the Sun at a distance of around 150 million kilometres. One can only assume that you realize exactly what that difference would be, but will exercise whatever evasive flummery you need to to avoid admitting that the evidence you advanced in respect of Polaris supporting a stationary Earth is, quite simply, nonsense.
It's a simple exercise in false geometry.
And more bluster designed to conceal the fact that you have no reasoned response to make. Geometry is geometry; as a no doubt fearless seeker after truth, I would have thought you would have welcomed the opportunity to demonstrate that geometry can be used to show that if Earth was orbiting the Sun at 150 million kilometres then the perceived position of Polaris would change throughout the year.
How about other notables? Not Bowden, other people of standing?
I note that none of your authorities is actually quoted as saying that Earth does not orbit the Sun. What should we conclude from that?
Are you cleverer than these people Kalvan, that you can definatively state that real experimentation shows that the Earth moves? No offence but I think not.
Like you, I'm just another poster on an Internet forum. Stellar aberration, stellar parallax, the Doppler effect and observation of other non-stellar solar system bodies all lead to the same conclusion, i.e. that Earth moves around the Sun. As I have seen you offer no serious argument against these observations, as none of your authorities seem to be quotable as saying that Earth does not orbit the Sun, and as I have seen you offer no persuasive evidence that Earth is stationary, I think I am at least as clever as you are, which is all that counts here.
I'm just asking for your interpretation of that verse.
To what purpose?
The part I quoted Pauli......Is simply showing that Pauli accepted that any scientific attempts to show the Earth moved have failed.
I don't think Pauli is saying exactly this, which is simply your spin on Pauli's comments as indicated by the qualifying 'which allows us to' after which you have snipped the remaining words and substituted your own, dare I say, less than unbiased commentary. Can you show us anywhere where Pauli says Earth does not orbit the Sun?

Yet again your link does not work.
 
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Anyone got any idea why my links worked when I checked them and now 3 hours later they dont work?

Admins? Mods?

Links in posts.....how's it done.

Seems like everyones having probs with this.
 
Ok Kalvan...

Again, as were going round in circles with your insistence that experiments show the opposite of what they do and your refusal to accept that trigonometry is theoretical when one of the points is made up................ I'll do the Christian thing and let you have the last word.

With regard to the Michelson-Morley experiment...You are quite within your rights to say that it doesnt show anything becasue theres no aether. I respect that. I believe that there is an aether. And so did Michelson-Morley. So we'll let the reader make up their own mind on whether space has no medium for light to travel in. I've brought forth my evidence, you've brought yours. People can read quotes and make up their minds on what they mean. Theres no point in us arguing about it.

I'd be interested to see documentation of light travelling in a vacuum like you mentioned.

I think I fixed my links if your interested.

Doc.
 
Ok Kalvan...

Again, as were going round in circles with your insistence that experiments show the opposite of what they do and your refusal to accept that trigonometry is theoretical when one of the points is made up................ I'll do the Christian thing and let you have the last word.

With regard to the Michelson-Morley experiment...You are quite within your rights to say that it doesnt show anything becasue theres no aether. I respect that. I believe that there is an aether. And so did Michelson-Morley. So we'll let the reader make up their own mind on whether space has no medium for light to travel in. I've brought forth my evidence, you've brought yours. People can read quotes and make up their minds on what they mean. Theres no point in us arguing about it.

I'd be interested to see documentation of light travelling in a vacuum like you mentioned.

I think I fixed my links if your interested.

Doc.

simple evac with with a vacuum pump and use a manifold guage to do it,and make shift a glass jar with a line in and the old alarm set to go off when you want to it, when vac hits sound will go away, no gas in their since the guage reads 30 mm hg or as close as possible. and if theres any pressure there from"ether" it will show. as that has to have a substace to it, ie density and physical nature to it.
 
Ok Kalvan...

Again, as were going round in circles with your insistence that experiments show the opposite of what they do and your refusal to accept that trigonometry is theoretical when one of the points is made up................ I'll do the Christian thing and let you have the last word.
The last word being that the experiments do not necessarily lead to the inferences you wish to draw from them.
With regard to the Michelson-Morley experiment...You are quite within your rights to say that it doesnt show anything becasue theres no aether. I respect that.
Well, it's better than being accused of lying.
I believe that there is an aether.
For which there appears to be no evidence. It certainly provides no useful concept in physics.
And so did Michelson-Morley.
Joseph Priestly believed in phlogiston; Ernst Haekel believed in embryological recapitulation; J.J. Thomson proposed a 'plum pudding' model of the atom. Hypotheses do not survive when they are shown to be either inadequate for explaining observed phenomena and/or when evidence and understanding are developed that show them to be awry. Michelson and Morley quite clearly believed that Earth moved in space as they refer to this in their paper (p.334, for example), so whether or not they believed in the ether does not appear to bear on their understanding that Earth orbited the Sun..
So we'll let the reader make up their own mind on whether space has no medium for light to travel in. I've brought forth my evidence, you've brought yours. People can read quotes and make up their minds on what they mean. Theres no point in us arguing about it.
Apart from the quotes, however, there have been particular examples cited, refutations offered and unsupported accusations made that remain outstanding. If you want to leave these hanging, that is a choice you are free to make.
I'd be interested to see documentation of light travelling in a vacuum like you mentioned.
You can do a simple experiment yourself, along the lines Jason discusses (thumbs up and thanks for that, Jason). You might also want to cast your mind back to the days of hard vacuum-type vacuum tubes, many of which emitted light when switched on. Where is the ether that the light in those tubes is travelling through?
I think I fixed my links if your interested.
Thanks.
 
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dont even have to do that, vacuum tubes are still used in alot of audio equipement today.the amps that are still used by the better musicians.
 
It's impossible to make a perfect vacuum.

Can I just ask you guys.....

Do you think space is a perfect vacuum with no particles in it?

Logic would point to space being made up of something, what does science say?
 
From the European Space Agency Website::::

The Universe is thought to consist of three types of substance: normal matter, ‘dark matter’ and ‘dark energy’.

Normal matter consists of the atoms that make up stars, planets, human beings and every other visible object in the Universe.
As humbling as it sounds, normal matter almost certainly accounts for the smallest proportion of the Universe, somewhere between 1% and 10%.

In the currently popular model of the Universe, 70% is thought to be dark energy, 25% dark matter and 5% normal matter. But ESA’s X-ray observatory, XMM-Newton, has returned new data about this content. XMM-Newton has found puzzling differences between today’s clusters of galaxies and those in the Universe around seven thousand million years ago.


Interestingly theres no percentage for "vacuum" or "nothing".

Full story here - "www.esa.int/esaSC/SEMTQO274OD_extreme_0.html"

If the link works>>>>lolz.
 
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Ok I just clicked the link 20 times and it WORKS!!

Lolz.....bet it dont in an hour......:chin

EDIT: Yup...as soo as you refresh the page the links dont work anymore.

I'm just gonna put my links in like that with telnet at the front you just copy everything except telnet and paste it into your address bar.
 
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Interstellar medium

In astronomy, the interstellar medium (or ISM) is the gas and dust that pervade interstellar space: the matter that exists between the star systems within a galaxy. It fills interstellar space and blends smoothly into the surrounding intergalactic space. The energy that occupies the same volume, in the form of electromagnetic radiation, is the interstellar radiation field.

The interstellar medium consists of an extremely dilute (by terrestrial standards) mixture of ions, atoms, molecules, larger dust grains, cosmic rays, and (galactic) magnetic fields.[1] The matter consists of about 99% gas and 1% dust by mass. Densities range from a few thousand to a few hundred million particles[clarification needed] per cubic meter with an average value in the Milky Way Galaxy of a million particles per cubic meter (1 atom per cubic centimeter).

The ISM plays a crucial role in astrophysics precisely because of its intermediate role between stellar and galactic scales. Stars form within the densest regions of the ISM, molecular clouds, and replenish the ISM with matter and energy through planetary nebulae, stellar winds, and supernovae. This interplay between stars and the ISM helps determine the rate at which a galaxy depletes its gaseous content, and therefore its lifespan of active star formation.

Wiki - "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interstellar_medium"

Sounds alot like aether. :chin
 
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