The time of the Great trib is WHEN?????Berean and Solo!!!!!

[noblej6]

Hi forum,

A couple of guys over on evolve -create came to the conclusion I don't know the bible very good. We were discussing creation which is not written out rock solid in the bible and can never be proven one way or another if the debaters are stubborn enough.

So I challenged one of them, Bibleberean, to a little discussion of when the great tribulation is. That IS laid out rock solid in scripture and therefore knowledge of the bible could be gauged a bit in such a discussion. Solo offered a bit of a comment back there too so let me invite the two of you to join forces in this discussion. In fact anybody that cares to jump in....go for it.

I asked Berean to start the ball rolling with the first of the comments but he didn't so I will start.

The Great tibulation is:
1)immediately before the celestial display that includes the coming of the son of man on the clouds.
2)when the son of man comes on the clouds the great tribulation is over.

That is a basic statement that we should agree on before we start. In these disussions when one group starts to see the writing on the wall, they have a tendency to go back and reinvent the basic biblical statements.
Come on guys, it isn't nice to insult someone and then not show up for the time of comeuppance.

Show me your best stuff on when the Great Tribulation is.

Thanks
noble6

 

[noblej6]

Hi forum,

I'll cut and paste what was said over at evolve-create, just so everybody knows I have reason to get my dander up. What is dander anyway?

noble6
GUY #1
Those who say God used evolution to "create the heavens and the earth" don't understand evolution and obviously haven't a clue as to what the bible says.


GUY #2
You've already shown that you do not know the Bible by believing evolution over the beginnings of creation, so I doubt that you know much more about the endings in the last times. You may even be a plant

 

[Solo]

The Great Tribulation is over when Jesus Christ returns and those that are in Christ Jesus will rise to meet him in the air, the dead in Christ Jesus first, then those that are alive at his coming. Jesus will return just prior to pouring out his wrath on the unbelievers.

At that point all of those who adhere to evolution can see the house of evolution disappear with the wood, hay, and stubble.

 

[noblej6]

Hi solo,

The Great Tribulation is over when Jesus Christ returns and those that are in Christ Jesus will rise to meet him in the air, the dead in Christ Jesus first, then those that are alive at his coming. Jesus will return just prior to pouring out his wrath on the unbelievers.

Wow, that is correct...as far as it goes, but I meant like is it in June of 2006? August of 2012 or when is it? Well, not the day or the hour just the year, let's say.

At that point all of those who adhere to evolution can see the house of evolution disappear with the wood, hay, and stubble.

Who told you that?

So guys, the Great tribulation is over when when Jesus returns.Yes, it is. First could you show me how people fit 3.5 years of wrath into this IMMEDIATELY after this tribulation.............

Matthew 24
29"But immediately after the tribulation of those days THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, AND THE STARS WILL FALL from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.

30"And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory

Some say the tribulation is 3.5 years and then the wrath is 3.5 years and of course this shows that it isn't. Do you know where this first fallacy comes from? How about you Berean>

noble6

 

[Darrell dunn]

Have you ever heard a summary of a trial done?

That is how Jesus is giving this statement it is a summary of things to come.

Then the book of Rev. laid it out in the order that it will happen,like the trial, That Jesus summed up.

And as for your question, on the year, it will all be complete before 70 years from 1948. Or 2018

PS.90;10 the days of our years are threescore years and 10, or 70,
that is a life span of a man.

God spoke of these things as our future, but He sees them them from the future looking back at the past.

That is why there is no mistakes in what He says.

 

[noblej6]

Hi darryl,

And as for your question, on the year, it will all be complete before 70 years from 1948. Or 2018

Yes, there is one idea. Let's look at that.

1948 was 57 years ago.

Most who hold to this idea also like the 7 year trib idea. OH. and then there is this pesky verse:

33Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it is near, right at the door.

That would mean the 'you', whoever Jesus is talking to, has to see all these things. Apparently someting in 1948 was the first thing to see so to comprehend 'seeing' a person has to be how old???? Let's say 5 years old,
so 57 + 7 + 5= 69. That would be next year wouldn't it?

Well, you could always go to the 120 year mark for lifespan. God did mention something about that.

Seriously, I hope you are alive in 2018 to learn that one is wrong. I'll never make it to 2018, but I know it's wrong anyway.

Stay tuned and we'll see why that one is wrong.

Thanks for bringing that one up tho.

noble6

 

[Geo]

.... it will all be complete before 70 years from 1948. Or 2018

I agree with that. Would that include "anytime" before 2018?
like a few years before?

I was looking at it from all sides the last week and tried to find
the point where it all starts. And got a time that is either in the
last days of this December, or in June 2006.

 

[noblej6]

Hi Guys,

How about our Aug 5, 70?

noble6

 

[noblej6]

Hi forum,

I'll keep a running list of my questions that haven't been answered yet.

1)How does this 3.5 years of wrath fit in to the immediately of Matthew 24?

29"But immediately after the tribulation of those days THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, AND THE STARS WILL FALL from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken

Above referring to those who feel there is 3.5 years of trib, followed by 3.5 years of wrath.

noble6

 

[Darrell dunn]

Dear noblej6

You have read something into scripture that is not there.
Mat.24:34 says Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

V33 says So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

It dose not say they have to see the birth of Israel, it says that they see the growth of the fig tree, not the birth.

V29is fulfilled in Rev.6:12-16, And that is defiantly after the rapture of the church.

Geo

There is evidence that it may happen on or around OCT. 2006

Then the book of Rev. is 10 years long not 7.

That would make it complete around Oct. 2016.

 

[noblej6]

Hi darryl,

It dose not say they have to see the birth of Israel, it says that they see the growth of the fig tree, not the birth.

So then the year 1948 doesn't really mean anything? Or how do you include 1948 or why do you include 1948?

What do you see in scripture that prohibits this

Matt 24
32"Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near.

From meaning:

When its leaves come out summer is near because it's leaves come out in the spring which is real close to summer....just like when you see these things happen the temple is close to desruction.

What do you see not happening that Mark spoke of in his writing of the Olivet Discourse? What about Luke?

V29is fulfilled in Rev.6:12-16, And that is defiantly after the rapture of the church.
This one?
29Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

And these?

12And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

14And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

15And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

16And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:


Can we include this one?

17For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

That day of wrath is also talked about in Rev 14:14-20. Wouldn't you agree?

But where do you see the rapture of the church?

We do see the son of man coming on that white horse/cloud, but where is this rapture of the church?

14And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

noble6

 

[Vic C.]

If I may interject...

Can we include this one?

17For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

You have to include this verse when talking End Times. This is the verse that seperates the Tribulation from The Day of the Lord.

That day of wrath is also talked about in Rev 14:14-20. Wouldn't you agree?

I believe these verses are talking about the sheep and goat judgement, the seperation of the wheat and tares. Chapters 12 thru 15 are a bit out of sequence. Chapter 12 brings us back to about "midweek". Chapter 15 is nearing the end of the 70th. week. Chapter 16 brings us to the vial (bowl) judgements and Armageddon. I believe this period of God's wrath extends into the additional 30 days Daniel speaks of in Daniel 12:11.

Dan 12:11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

1,290-1,260=30 days

I still see the harpazo just prior to Revelation 6:17.

 

[noblej6]

Hi Vic,

Verses 14-20 in Rev 14 are definately the time of wrath at the time of the coing I would say because:

16So he who was seated on the cloud swung his sickle over the earth, and the earth was harvested

The wrath occured in the swing of a sicklle?

But it was the time of wrath because it says:

19The angel swung his sickle on the earth, gathered its grapes and threw them into the great winepress of God's wrath.

My point is about the time involved in this wrath

16So he who was seated on the cloud swung his sickle over the earth, and the earth was harvested.

19The angel swung his sickle on the earth, gathered its grapes and threw them into the great winepress of God's wrath.

So you say the verse I included there separates the Day of the Lord. Well, I agree that as Jesus comes appears to be this harvest of the earth, Matthew 13, Rev 14. However, that is the same time as the separation of the sheep and goats.

Matthew 25
31"When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory.

The above starts the story of the sheep and the goats.

Further to that the sheep and the goats is also the same as the Great White thone judgment as I see it. That coming from determination of when the second or general resurrection of the dead is. Which is at the time of the coming of the son of man or at least somewhere near the time of the Great tribulation,
Daniel 12
here will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your peopleâ€â€everyone whose name is found written in the bookâ€â€will be delivered. 2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt

I believe this period of God's wrath extends into the additional 30 days Daniel speaks of in Daniel 12:11.

Well, it doesn't seem it should take 30 days to swing a reaper, but it can be figurative. Somehow the time between the ceasing of the sacrifice and the appearing of the abomination doesn't seem to coincide exactly with the fulfilling of the gift of eternal life. How that actually is, I can't piece together from any of this.

However, you have just outlined one of the biblical hints of when the Greeat tribulation was. That abomination has to appear with 1290 days of the ceasing of the sacrifice. The sacrifices ceased when the temple was destrpoyed. The great tribulation occurred just after the abomination appeared.

noble6

 

[Darrell dunn]

There is a time table in the old testament,

In Ezek. 36& 37 the regathering of Israel.

Then the war Ezek.38 & 39

Then the 7 years of burning the weapons, Esek.39;9

This time table is for Israel,

But with the Spirits help we can correlate it with the time table of the church.

AS the second seal in Rev.6:3 is the war. and there will be 7 years of burning of weapons after this, before the Jews flee into the mountains.

Now using Jesus's summery of the end times in Mat. 24 the rapture will happen at V 8, then the persecution of the church will start with V 9

And the foolish virgins will have their portion, before being killed, Rev.6: 11

And the 144,000 Jews will be saved from their testimony and death.

In Rev.14:14 you have over looked a word. It says (LIKE) unto the Son of man. NOT THE SON OF MAN, this is not Jesus, but a raptured saint.

Any time one scripture dose not fit that means we have some thing wrong with our interpretion.

 

[irishrain]

Re: The time of the Great trib is WHEN?????Berean and Solo!!

The Great tibulation is:
1)immediately before the celestial display that includes the coming of the son of man on the clouds.
2)when the son of man comes on the clouds the great tribulation is over.

That is a basic statement that we should agree on before we start. In these disussions when one group starts to see the writing on the wall, they have a tendency to go back and reinvent the basic biblical statements.
Come on guys, it isn't nice to insult someone and then not show up for the time of comeuppance.

Show me your best stuff on when the Great Tribulation is.

When the Great Tribulation is? The time of the Tribulation(also called the hour of temptation Rev 3:10,Rev 17:12 Rev 18:10) has been shortened.

Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

Mar 13:20 And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.

Dan 12:11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
Christ, the lamb of God became our daily sacrifice .Heb 10:10
But when Satan stands in the Holy Place ie Jerusalem pretenting to be Jesus/God 2 Ths 2:1-4. The whole world will follow after him Rev 13:8 with is the apostasy. In other words the people because they are not learned will follow him thinking his is Christ. Crusifying Jesus all over again in their minds.

the abomination that maketh desolate, Satan is the desolator.
The abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
1290 days

Dan 12:12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.

1335 days or the 7th trumph

1335 days
1290 days from 1335 is just 45days

Could this be the amount of the shortened time?

But some say Satan will be here only a five month period. The time of the locust.
Rev 9:5 And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.

Rev 9:5 And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.

Locust season is usually May threw Sept. or Passover threw feast of Tabernales.

 

[Vic C.]

Hi Vic,

Verses 14-20 in Rev 14 are definately the time of wrath at the time of the coing I would say because:

16So he who was seated on the cloud swung his sickle over the earth, and the earth was harvested

The wrath occured in the swing of a sicklle?

The seperating of the wheat and tares is just one event during the Wrath, which includes all the trumpets and bowls.

But it was the time of wrath because it says:

19The angel swung his sickle on the earth, gathered its grapes and threw them into the great winepress of God's wrath.

My point is about the time involved in this wrath

I can't attempt to answer that because no one can pinpoint when God's wrath begins or how far into the 30 days it extends.

So you say the verse I included there separates the Day of the Lord. Well, I agree that as Jesus comes appears to be this harvest of the earth, Matthew 13, Rev 14. However, that is the same time as the separation of the sheep and goats.

Matthew 25
31"When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory.

The above starts the story of the sheep and the goats.

Sorry, I'm not following what you are saying here.

Further to that the sheep and the goats is also the same as the Great White thone judgment as I see it. That coming from determination of when the second or general resurrection of the dead is. Which is at the time of the coming of the son of man or at least somewhere near the time of the Great tribulation,
Daniel 12
here will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your peopleâ€â€everyone whose name is found written in the bookâ€â€will be delivered. 2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt

The way I read i,t is Daniel is condensing time and events and doesn't account for all events in the timeframe he covers.

The sheep and goat judgement isn't the same as the White Throne judgement. The former happens before the Millennium, the latter at the end. There are two resurrections but three judgements. The ones taken in the sheep/goat judgement are not dead, they are alive. shocking, heh? See Matthew 25. I believe this is the key verse in the passage:

Mat 25:32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

Matthew 25:35-46 are the conditions of that judgement.

However, you have just outlined one of the biblical hints of when the Greeat tribulation was. That abomination has to appear with 1290 days of the ceasing of the sacrifice. The sacrifices ceased when the temple was destrpoyed. The great tribulation occurred just after the abomination appeared.

noble6

Bingo... that is when the events of Revelation 12 kick in; when the Restrainer is taken out of the way and Satan is thrown down to earth.

 

[noblej6]

Hi Irish,

Well, the days were shortened, yes, to ....well hard to say. Was it shortened after Matthew describes it in 24?We see a 3.5 year mess talked about, but maybe that was shotened to ....well maybe.

You have listed some thing s that happen but what year do theyhappen?

nobl;e6

 

[noblej6]

Hi Vic,

The sheep and goat judgement isn't the same as the White Throne judgement. The former happens before the Millennium, the latter at the end. There are two resurrections but three judgements. The ones taken in the sheep/goat judgement are not dead, they are alive. shocking, heh? See Matthew 25. I believe this is the key verse in the passage:

Look closely at these events. I fear many denominations teach that one is at the end of the millenium and one at the start because they want to hold to an earthly 1000 year reign with Christ. There is a resurrection at the start of the 1000 year reign, but it is those of Rev 20. They are all righteous. The REST of the dead, meaning all others who have died before the parousia, will be judged at the White Throne judgment or the sheep and goat event which is at the coming of the son as I see it.

We know from 1 Thess 4:13-18 that all the dead have to rise BEFORE those alive at the coming.

The 'first' resurection of Rev. 20 would not need any judgment. They are souls already in Heaven as John sees them in the vision. They have no fear of the second death. In other words their judgment is long over before we even hear of them.

The judgment 1000 years later includes the wicked as well as the righteous. I realize that most of the people who post on these forums consider the general or second resurrection of the dead to be only the wicked, 1000 years after the coming, but biblically that doesn't add up.

Yes, there is, in fact three judgments alright. One we never read of that covers those of the first resurrection of Rev 20. One which covers the REST of the dead of Rev 20:5 which is the Great white throne at the coming and then after the coming the judgment of those who are alive and remain after the parousia.

Hebrews 9
27And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

All of this becomes crystal clear if we determine the time of that Great tribulation. If the Great ribulation is a future event, then everything that I am saying is incorrect. If the great tribulation is past and the parousia is past as well, then things have to shake out somehow like I se it.

So that timing of the Great trib is the key. Knowing what the bible says about that eliminates any and all guesswork about what any prophecies are telling us, IF it is a past event. That also will deal with if those sheep and goats are alive or dead in Matthew 25.

Bingo... that is when the events of Revelation 12 kick in; when the Restrainer is taken out of the way and Satan is thrown down to earth.

Isn't that funny , I see Rev 12 as talking about the birth of Jesus and the Satan starting it's conflict with the fledgling Christianity.

Anyway when the restrainer is taken out of the way is actually another hint of when this all occurs. First tell me if you feel the man of lawlessness is an actual man or is it just 'evil.'

2 Thess 2
4Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

noble6

 

[Vic C.]

Oh goodness, we read things so differently. 8-) I do enjoy the discussion, none the less.

Hi Vic,

The sheep and goat judgement isn't the same as the White Throne judgement. The former happens before the Millennium, the latter at the end. There are two resurrections but three judgements. The ones taken in the sheep/goat judgement are not dead, they are alive. shocking, heh? See Matthew 25. I believe this is the key verse in the passage:

Look closely at these events. I fear many denominations teach that one is at the end of the millenium and one at the start because they want to hold to an earthly 1000 year reign with Christ. There is a resurrection at the start of the 1000 year reign, but it is those of Rev 20. They are all righteous.

I actually 'see' the first resurrection beginning some 2,000 years ago when Jesus dies, the veil of the Temple was torn and saints arose from their 'sleep'. (graves) Matthew 27:51-52. I also believe the first resurrection concludes with those in 1 Thess 4:16. My belief is that Revelation 20 is indentifying those of the first resurrection. I don't see that as a resurrection in itself. Look at those in Revelation 20:4 and compare them to those in Revelation 6:9. I see similarities.

I am not dogmatic about any of this though.

The REST of the dead, meaning all others who have died before the parousia, will be judged at the White Throne judgment or the sheep and goat event which is at the coming of the son as I see it.

Lets look at the end of Matthew 24 and Matthew 25. This is where I see those of the sheep and goat judgement.

Two in the field... alive.
Two woman grinding at the mill... alive.
Ten virgins... alive.
Servants with talants... alive.

Speaking of servants, Jesus mentions servanthood several times in this passage. Who are they serving? Israel... specifically those who somehow survive The Wrath. Again, this is what they are being judged for:

Mat 25:40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

and

Mat 25:45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.

After the harpazo, the focus is clearly on "Israel" IMO.

The judgment 1000 years later includes the wicked as well as the righteous. I realize that most of the people who post on these forums consider the general or second resurrection of the dead to be only the wicked, 1000 years after the coming, but biblically that doesn't add up.

No offense, but the burden of proof lies with you. The Bible teaches two resurrections. Jesus states so in John 5:29; And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Yes, there is, in fact three judgments alright. One we never read of that covers those of the first resurrection of Rev 20.

Heh? See 1 Corinthians 3:13-15 and 2 Corinthians 5:10 for the judgement of the first resurrection righteous ones.

You asked about timing... you already know I view most of it as being in the future.

[quote:afe58]Bingo... that is when the events of Revelation 12 kick in; when the Restrainer is taken out of the way and Satan is thrown down to earth.

Isn't that funny , I see Rev 12 as talking about the birth of Jesus and the Satan starting it's conflict with the fledgling Christianity.[/quote:afe58]
Heh, my fault for not elaborating. I see these things as well. Except for one thing... Israel first. I believe the Woman to be Israel and her remnant to be exactly what Revelation 12:17 tell us; those who accept Jesus as Messiah.

Anyway when the restrainer is taken out of the way is actually another hint of when this all occurs. First tell me if you feel the man of lawlessness is an actual man or is it just 'evil.'

2 Thess 2
4Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

noble6

What!? :o You're not going to ask me who I believe to be the Restrainer? ;-) I believe the Lawless One is one... the verse you provided gives a nice, literal answer to the question at hand. Himself, he, himself, he.

 

[noblej6]

Hi Vic,

Oh goodness, we read things so differently.

Yes, we sure do and I don't know about you, but because of my mindset, I guess, it takes me forever and four days to be able to look at it from somebody elses view. Like I have trouble seeing it thru others eyes to understand how they think it is this or that.

I actually 'see' the first resurrection beginning some 2,000 years ago when Jesus dies, the veil of the Temple was torn and saints arose from their 'sleep'. (graves) Matthew 27:51-52.

Matthew 27
51At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook and the rocks split. 52The tombs broke open and the bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. 53They came out of the tombs, and after Jesus' resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many people

WEll we are staying consistant, I disagree again. I don't consider this as a resurrection because they didn't remain 'alive', but died again. As well we see that no resurrection had occurred yet here:

2 Tim 2
who have wandered away from the truth. They say that the resurrection has already taken place, and they destroy the faith of some.

You remember that Paul turns those guys over to Satan for some straightening out.

I also believe the first resurrection concludes with those in 1 Thess 4:16.

16For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.

At least here I can see it thru your eyes or your way of thinking. You feel the two resurrections are the resurrection of the wicked and the resurrection of the wicked and this in Christ group is from....yes , I see how you get that.

That is a breakthru for me...

My belief is that Revelation 20 is indentifying those of the first resurrection. I don't see that as a resurrection in itself.

Okay. I do take that as literal and call it the first resurrection. Jesus was the first resurrected, but for whatever reason this is called the first resurrection.
4......................
And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his image and had not received his mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

It says in the bolded above that they did come to life. Those in verse 4 and 6 were dead because they were beheaded,. They were followers because the reason they were dead is because they were killed for their testimony.

This is the first resurrection.

This phrase is tied on to verse 5 which talks about the rest of the dead. Most I have talked to consider this to be referring to the group who are involved with that 1000 year reign with Christ. Any comments? I see the statements of verses 4 and 6 laying out the solid understanding that the 1000 year reign is trhe first resurrection.


6Blessed and holy are those who have part in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.

Look at those in Revelation 20:4 and compare them to those in Revelation 6:9. I see similarities.

Yes, I think they are the same, but I don't have that absolute connector verse to prove it.

Lets look at the end of Matthew 24 and Matthew 25. This is where I see those of the sheep and goat judgement.

Two in the field... alive.
Two woman grinding at the mill... alive.
Ten virgins... alive.
Servants with talants... alive.

I don't see it as the sheep and goats event because that is at the coming of the son of man.

Matthew 25

31"When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory.

As I said here is any area that is cleared up in the determining of the time of the great tribulation. If the son of man comes immediately after the great tribulation as Mathew 24 says it does, this event is taking place in the spiritual realm or else some mortal men would have seen it.

No offense, but the burden of proof lies with you. The Bible teaches two resurrections. Jesus states so in John 5:29; And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Yes we touched on this a ways back.

I'll show you what I see as proof.

Daniel 12
There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your peopleâ€â€everyone whose name is found written in the bookâ€â€will be delivered. 2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt

The only time mentioned for this happening is the time of distress, but both the wicked and the righteous are involved. That means one event , esurrectees are resurrected to two places ..heaven or hell.

John 5

28"Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice 29and come outâ€â€those who have done good will rise to live, and those who have done evil will rise to be condemned.

A time is coming when both the righteous and the wicked will hear His voice and come out...........There is no mention of a separate time for the good and the righteous. The only reference to timing is in verse 25 which says:

25I tell you the truth, a time is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live.

The time is now, which brings us to a third hint at the time of the great tribulation. The resurrection has been shown to be at or near the time of the great tribulation and Jesus Himself says the time NOW IS....That was 2000 years ago.

Matthew 25
31"When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. 32All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

You feel these verses above are of a different event than the Great white throne. However, here again the timing for the event is at the coming of the son of man. That is when the resurrection is as well. In Matthew 25 it is quite clear to me that the good and evil are judged at the same time. You feel this is judging people who are alive, but I think they are the dead brought together in the spiritual realm.

Rev 20

11Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. ........

..... The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books.

If you follow the verses back we see that this is after the 1000 years. I argue that the 1000 years is over at the comong of the son of man time.

13The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done.

Verse 13 is what tells me that both the righteous and the wicked are involved here because I don't see how only wicked could have died at sea.

So there are some 'proofs' I use to show that the resurrection of the damned and the resurrection of the righteous happen at the same time and I see that time as being near the great tribulation/parousia.

You mention 2 Cor 5:10.

Yes that is for us all as I se it . That follows along with Hebrews 9:26.

Heh, my fault for not elaborating. I see these things as well. Except for one thing... Israel first. I believe the Woman to be Israel and her remnant to be exactly what Revelation 12:17 tell us; those who accept Jesus as Messiah.

Well, taken symbolically , Israel produced the Christ, and Israel the people were some of God's favorites for a time and so on. That all becomes difficult because it's hard to keep track of everybodies definition of Israel and church and so on. I can see how you are reading this as Israel anyway.

What!? You're not going to ask me who I believe to be the Restrainer? I believe the Lawless One is one... the verse you provided gives a nice, literal answer to the question at hand. Himself, he, himself, he.

No, who the restrainer is really doesn't matter, it is who is being restrained. Here is our fourth hint of when this all takes place. If the man of lawlessness is a man, he is beingf held back as Paul writes his book. That means the whole thing has to talke place before this mortal man dies which would have been 2000 years ago.

2 Thess 2
6And now you know what is holding him back, so that he may be revealed at the proper time.

They , Paul's audience, knows what IS holding the man of lawlessnes back. Therefore at that time.

noble6