The Trinity

[Free]

False.

No, it's true. Perhaps that is why you haven't even bothered to address the points I made about it.

Oneness teaches that there is one member of the Godhead; Jesus.

That Jesus manifests as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.


The scriptures teaches three. These three are one.

Yes, I know all this.

LORD is YHWH.

Yes, that is what I keep telling you and why your claim is either Oneness or is speaking nonsense. Your claim, again, is: "Jesus is the Name of the LORD; YHWH the LORD God." That could be understood as saying "Jesus is the Name of God," which is Oneness. Or, it simply means "Jesus is the Name of YHWH," which is the same as "Jesus is the Name of the name of God," which is nonsense. And, "YHWH the LORD God," as I also pointed out, is the same as saying "YHWH YHWH God," which also doesn't make sense.

Those are the points which I've provided several times and you have yet to address. Why is that?

 

[JLB]

No, it's true. Perhaps that is why you haven't even bothered to address the points I made about it.

 

[JLB]

, "YHWH the LORD God," as I also pointed out, is the same as saying "YHWH YHWH God," which also doesn't make sense.

Those are the points which I've provided several times and you have yet to address. Why is that?

I’m emphasizing that LORD refers to YHWH.


I believe Jesus (the Son) is God; (YHWH) The LORD God.

I believe the Father is God; (YHWH) The LORD God.

I believe the Holy Spirit is God; (YHWH) The LORD God.

I believe collectively these three are God; (YHWH) the LORD God.

These three individual divine Beings (Persons) are collectively God;
(YHWH) the LORD God

Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness;
Genesis 1:26


What do you believe?

Which one of the statements do you disagree with?

 

[Free]

View attachment 21356

I have no idea what your point is. You can paste a picture, good for you, but it tells me nothing.

I’m emphasizing that LORD refers to YHWH.


I believe Jesus (the Son) is God; (YHWH) The LORD God.

I believe the Father is God; (YHWH) The LORD God.

I believe the Holy Spirit is God; (YHWH) The LORD God.

I believe collectively these three are God; (YHWH) the LORD God.

These three individual divine Beings (Persons) are collectively God;
(YHWH) the LORD God

Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness;
Genesis 1:26


What do you believe?

Which one of the statements do you disagree with?

I'm not even going to justify this with an answer other than this. You know better.

 

[JLB]

I have no idea what your point is. You can paste a picture, good for you, but it tells me nothing.

I’m showing that I responded to your post.

 

[JLB]

I'm not even going to justify this with an answer other than this. You know better.

I laid out what I believe in individual statements that can easily be addressed.

Why wouldn’t you tell me where you disagree?

Do you disagree with this -

I believe Jesus (the Son) is God; (YHWH) The LORD God.

 

[RandyK]

I know that. I stated that in my post.

Yes, I saw that as I was reading through and answering a little at a time. I didn't want anybody reading your post to be confused about where I stood. ;)

I believe Jesus is the name of the LORD we call on to be saved.

For “whoever calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved.” Romans 10:13

Paul is quoting Joel -

The sun shall be turned into darkness,
And the moon into blood,
Before the coming of the great and awesome day of the LORD.
And it shall come to pass
That whoever calls on the name of the LORD
Shall be saved.
For in Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there shall be deliverance,
As the LORD has said,
Among the remnant whom the LORD calls. Joel 2:31-32

Do you understand that the Day of the LORD is also called the Day of Christ?

Well, now it's my turn: did *you* read my post where I spoke about our need to call *both* on the name of the Lord Yahweh and the name of the Messiah Jesus?

We know that Jesus is the Lord God. But in calling upon him for Salvation we are specifically identifying his Work on the Cross as the basis of our Salvation, not at all denying that the Lord God is orchestrating this activity.

In other words, you may think "calling on the Lord God" is exactly the same as "calling on the name of Jesus" because both are referenced in regard to our Salvation? But I don't believe this is true.

They aren't exactly alike. In calling upon the Lord God for Salvation we are asking Him to produce the Work of Christ on the Cross in order to save us. In calling upon the name of Jesus we are asking Jesus to apply his work on the Cross to us for our Salvation.

Both are calling upon God. Both are calling upon God for Salvation. But using their different names specifies how we are asking for Salvation. We ask God to provide for us the Work of Christ on the Cross. We ask Jesus to apply the Work he has already done.

Here is what I said in my last post:

"However, we call on both God's name, "Yahweh," and the Son's name, "Jesus," in order to be saved. The emphasis upon calling on Jesus is due to God using him as the legal fix to enable our Salvation.

This doesn't mean God isn't the source of our Salvation--He just used Jesus to correct the problem by dying for us and by forgiving us, along with giving his Spirit to us as a downpayment on our Salvation."

 

[JLB]

Well, now it's my turn: did *you* read my post where I spoke about our need to call *both* on the name of the Lord Yahweh and the name of the Messiah Jesus?

They are the same.

Would you like me to explain ?

 

[JLB]

Yes, I saw that as I was reading through and answering a little at a time. I didn't want anybody reading your post to be confused about where I stood. ;)

Well, now it's my turn: did *you* read my post where I spoke about our need to call *both* on the name of the Lord Yahweh and the name of the Messiah Jesus?

We know that Jesus is the Lord God. But in calling upon him for Salvation we are specifically identifying his Work on the Cross as the basis of our Salvation, not at all denying that the Lord God is orchestrating this activity.

In other words, you may think "calling on the Lord God" is exactly the same as "calling on the name of Jesus" because both are referenced in regard to our Salvation? But I don't believe this is true.

They aren't exactly alike. In calling upon the Lord God for Salvation we are asking Him to produce the Work of Christ on the Cross in order to save us. In calling upon the name of Jesus we are asking Jesus to apply his work on the Cross to us for our Salvation.

Both are calling upon God. Both are calling upon God for Salvation. But using their different names specifies how we are asking for Salvation. We ask God to provide for us the Work of Christ on the Cross. We ask Jesus to apply the Work he has already done.

Here is what I said in my last post:

"However, we call on both God's name, "Yahweh," and the Son's name, "Jesus," in order to be saved. The emphasis upon calling on Jesus is due to God using him as the legal fix to enable our Salvation.

This doesn't mean God isn't the source of our Salvation--He just used Jesus to correct the problem by dying for us and by forgiving us, along with giving his Spirit to us as a downpayment on our Salvation."

Let’s this one point at a time.

Here’s what I believe:


I believe Jesus (the Son) is God; (YHWH) The LORD God.

I believe the Father is God; (YHWH) The LORD God.

I believe the Holy Spirit is God; (YHWH) The LORD God.

I believe collectively these three are God; (YHWH) the LORD God.

These three individual divine Beings (Persons) are collectively God;
(YHWH) the LORD God

Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness;
Genesis 1:26


What do you believe?

Which one of the statements do you disagree with?

 

[JLB]

Both are calling upon God. Both are calling upon God for Salvation. But using their different names specifies how we are asking for Salvation. We ask God to provide for us the Work of Christ on the Cross. We ask Jesus to apply the Work he has already done.

Again Yahweh is just a man made name that adds vowels to YHWH.

Here He is coming on the Day of the LORD (YHWH) with His saints.

Behold, the day of the LORD is coming,
And your spoil will be divided in your midst.
For I will gather all the nations to battle against Jerusalem;
The city shall be taken,
The houses rifled,
And the women ravished.
Half of the city shall go into captivity,
But the remnant of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
Then the LORD will go forth
And fight against those nations,
As He fights in the day of battle.
And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives,
Which faces Jerusalem on the east.
And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two,
From east to west,
Making a very large valley;
Half of the mountain shall move toward the north
And half of it toward the south.
Then you shall flee through My mountain valley,
For the mountain valley shall reach to Azal.
Yes, you shall flee
As you fled from the earthquake
In the days of Uzziah king of Judah.
Thus the LORD my God will come,
And all the saints with You.
Zechariah 14:1-5

This is Jesus coming with His saints on the Day of the LORD, which is called the Day of Christ.

Jesus, the Spirit of Christ, was speaking these words through Zechariah.

 

[Johann!@#]

Jesus is from above because he was Yahweh (He will be) fully manifested, he was full of grace and truth.

Let’s this one point at a time.

Here’s what I believe:


I believe Jesus (the Son) is God; (YHWH) The LORD God.

I believe the Father is God; (YHWH) The LORD God.

I believe the Holy Spirit is God; (YHWH) The LORD God.

I believe collectively these three are God; (YHWH) the LORD God.

These three individual divine Beings (Persons) are collectively God;
(YHWH) the LORD God

Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness;
Genesis 1:26


What do you believe?

Which one of the statements do you disagree with?

The OJB is an excellent secondary Bible, I use mine a lot.

J.

 

[Johann!@#]

Here’s what I believe:

The Trinitarian Concept: "Echad" Yet Distinct

The Christian doctrine of the Trinity asserts that God is one in essence (ousia) and three in persons (hypostases): the Father, the Son (Jesus Christ), and the Holy Spirit. This unity and distinction are rooted both in Scripture and in the linguistic concept of "echad" from the Hebrew Bible.

1. Unity in Essence: "Echad" (אֶחָד)
The Hebrew word "echad" means "one" but often signifies a composite unity rather than an absolute singularity.

Deuteronomy 6:4 (NASB):
"Hear, O Israel! The LORD is our God, the LORD is one (אֶחָד - echad)."

This verse, known as the Shema, affirms the oneness of God. The term "echad" here does not imply absolute singularity (as would "yachid" - יָחִיד), but a unified oneness, allowing for the concept of plurality within unity.

Genesis 2:24 (NASB):
"The two shall become one (אֶחָד - echad) flesh."

The marital union of two persons becoming one flesh reflects a unity of distinct individuals.

Thus, God's oneness as "echad" does not contradict the concept of three distinct persons sharing one divine essence.

2. Distinct Persons in Unity
While one in essence, the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are distinct persons who relate to one another and fulfill different roles:

The Father: The source and initiator (e.g., John 3:16 - sending the Son).

The Son (Jesus Christ): The incarnate Word, Savior, and Mediator (John 1:14 - "The Word became flesh").

The Holy Spirit: The indwelling presence, sanctifier, and comforter (John 14:26 - "The Helper, the Holy Spirit").

Biblical Example of Distinction:

Matthew 3:16-17 (NASB):
"After being baptized, Jesus came up immediately from the water... and behold, the heavens were opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending as a dove... and behold, a voice out of the heavens said, 'This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well-pleased.'"

Here we see the Son being baptized, the Spirit descending, and the Father speaking. This scene demonstrates distinct persons acting simultaneously.

3. New Testament Affirmation of Unity and Distinction
The Trinitarian formula appears throughout the New Testament, where the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are mentioned together:

Matthew 28:19 (NASB):
"Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit."

The singular "name" (ὄνομα - onoma) indicates unity, while the listing of the three persons shows distinctiveness.

2 Corinthians 13:14 (NASB):
"The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit, be with you all."

Here, Paul blesses the believers with the grace, love, and fellowship from all three persons, affirming equal divinity and distinct roles.

4. One God, Three Persons: A Paradox of Unity and Diversity
The Trinity is often described as a mystery because it transcends human logic. The one divine essence (ousia) is eternally and equally shared among the three persons without division or hierarchy.

This paradox-one essence, three persons-is not a contradiction but a theological reality grounded in Scripture.

The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are not three gods (tritheism) or one person appearing in three forms (modalism) but one God in three coequal, coeternal persons.

J.

 

[RandyK]

Again Yahweh is just a man made name that adds vowels to YHWH.

Here He is coming on the Day of the LORD (YHWH) with His saints.

Behold, the day of the LORD is coming,
And your spoil will be divided in your midst.
For I will gather all the nations to battle against Jerusalem;
The city shall be taken,
The houses rifled,
And the women ravished.
Half of the city shall go into captivity,
But the remnant of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
Then the LORD will go forth
And fight against those nations,
As He fights in the day of battle.
And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives,
Which faces Jerusalem on the east.
And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two,
From east to west,
Making a very large valley;
Half of the mountain shall move toward the north
And half of it toward the south.
Then you shall flee through My mountain valley,
For the mountain valley shall reach to Azal.
Yes, you shall flee
As you fled from the earthquake
In the days of Uzziah king of Judah.
Thus the LORD my God will come,
And all the saints with You.
Zechariah 14:1-5

This is Jesus coming with His saints on the Day of the LORD, which is called the Day of Christ.

Jesus, the Spirit of Christ, was speaking these words through Zechariah.

Yes, we all know that Jesus is the Lord God. The Lord God is coming via Jesus on the Mount of Olives.

 

[JLB]

The Trinitarian Concept: "Echad" Yet Distinct

The Christian doctrine of the Trinity asserts that God is one in essence (ousia) and three in persons (hypostases): the Father, the Son (Jesus Christ), and the Holy Spirit. This unity and distinction are rooted both in Scripture and in the linguistic concept of "echad" from the Hebrew Bible.

1. Unity in Essence: "Echad" (אֶחָד)
The Hebrew word "echad" means "one" but often signifies a composite unity rather than an absolute singularity.

Deuteronomy 6:4 (NASB):
"Hear, O Israel! The LORD is our God, the LORD is one (אֶחָד - echad)."

This verse, known as the Shema, affirms the oneness of God. The term "echad" here does not imply absolute singularity (as would "yachid" - יָחִיד), but a unified oneness, allowing for the concept of plurality within unity.

Genesis 2:24 (NASB):
"The two shall become one (אֶחָד - echad) flesh."

The marital union of two persons becoming one flesh reflects a unity of distinct individuals.

Thus, God's oneness as "echad" does not contradict the concept of three distinct persons sharing one divine essence.

2. Distinct Persons in Unity
While one in essence, the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are distinct persons who relate to one another and fulfill different roles:

The Father: The source and initiator (e.g., John 3:16 - sending the Son).

The Son (Jesus Christ): The incarnate Word, Savior, and Mediator (John 1:14 - "The Word became flesh").

The Holy Spirit: The indwelling presence, sanctifier, and comforter (John 14:26 - "The Helper, the Holy Spirit").

Biblical Example of Distinction:

Matthew 3:16-17 (NASB):
"After being baptized, Jesus came up immediately from the water... and behold, the heavens were opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending as a dove... and behold, a voice out of the heavens said, 'This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well-pleased.'"

Here we see the Son being baptized, the Spirit descending, and the Father speaking. This scene demonstrates distinct persons acting simultaneously.

3. New Testament Affirmation of Unity and Distinction
The Trinitarian formula appears throughout the New Testament, where the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are mentioned together:

Matthew 28:19 (NASB):
"Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit."

The singular "name" (ὄνομα - onoma) indicates unity, while the listing of the three persons shows distinctiveness.

2 Corinthians 13:14 (NASB):
"The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit, be with you all."

Here, Paul blesses the believers with the grace, love, and fellowship from all three persons, affirming equal divinity and distinct roles.

4. One God, Three Persons: A Paradox of Unity and Diversity
The Trinity is often described as a mystery because it transcends human logic. The one divine essence (ousia) is eternally and equally shared among the three persons without division or hierarchy.

This paradox-one essence, three persons-is not a contradiction but a theological reality grounded in Scripture.

The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are not three gods (tritheism) or one person appearing in three forms (modalism) but one God in three coequal, coeternal persons.

J.

Brother, I appreciate you input.

It seems there is disparity among Christians about what some call the Trinity and Oneness.

I really don’t like to use labels to divide people into sects (divisions) by a “label”.


I’m trying to find ways to unify around the truth.

Just using scripture.

Here is what I believe.

I broke down my beliefs into smaller statements to be clear and open.


I believe Jesus (the Son) is God; (YHWH) The LORD God.

I believe the Father is God; (YHWH) The LORD God.

I believe the Holy Spirit is God; (YHWH) The LORD God.

I believe collectively these three are God; (YHWH) the LORD God.

These three individual divine Beings (Persons) are collectively God;
(YHWH) the LORD God

Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness;
Genesis 1:26


Which one of the statements do you disagree with?

 

[RandyK]

Let’s this one point at a time.

Here’s what I believe:


I believe Jesus (the Son) is God; (YHWH) The LORD God.

I believe the Father is God; (YHWH) The LORD God.

I believe the Holy Spirit is God; (YHWH) The LORD God.

I believe collectively these three are God; (YHWH) the LORD God.

These three individual divine Beings (Persons) are collectively God;
(YHWH) the LORD God

Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness;
Genesis 1:26


What do you believe?

Which one of the statements do you disagree with?

For one thing, I'm not sure the plural "our" image indicates anything more than a Hebrew convention indicating the "royal" plurality.

For example, you said, "Let's take this one point at a time." It is an English convention that would allow you to phrase the same statement as a plural, such as "We'll take this one point at a time," or "Let us take this one point at a time." While you alone are taking it one point at a time, out of deference to your listener you phrase it as a plurality.

So there is really no indication God is expressing Himself as a plurality of gods. Indeed that would be out of character with the rest of the OT Bible. God is one, we are told over and over again.

So when it comes to the Trinity of Persons we should note that this does not contradict the Oneness of God. He is the Source of all 3 Persons.

But revealing Himself in a Trinity of Persons, the one God now shows that He can reveal Himself as such, all emanating from a single God. As distinct Persons they can interrelate throughout this Trinity of Persons. The Father can relate to the Son, for example, even though both Persons emanate from the same God.

 

[RandyK]

Again Yahweh is just a man made name that adds vowels to YHWH.

Here He is coming on the Day of the LORD (YHWH) with His saints.

Yes Yahweh is tooled so that we can speak what was rendered unspeakable by Hebrews afraid to speak the Name. But any symbol of something doesn't stop being a symbol of something just because it is misspelled or corrupted in some way, as long as the symbol is still understood to represent what it does. This is a non-argument to me.

 

[JLB]

Yes, we all know that Jesus is the Lord God. The Lord God is coming via Jesus on the Mount of Olives.

If we all know this then why are people is such disagreement with me about this?


Now you say the Lord God is coming via Jesus?

This seems to contradict.

Please help understand what you mean by via Jesus?


Thus the LORD my God will come, and all the saints with You. Zechariah 14:5

YHWH God will come with all the saints from heaven to gather His people at the resurrection and rapture.

I believe the LORD (YHWH) God who will come with the saints is Jesus the Son;
GOD the Son.


Is this what you believe?

 

[JLB]

He is the Source of all 3 Persons.

But revealing Himself in a Trinity of Persons, the one God now shows that He can reveal Himself as such, all emanating from a single God.

This is what is known as Oneness Theology.

It simple says this one is three.

The scripture teaches these three are one.

The Father individually is God.
The Son individually is God.
The Spirit individually is God.

These three are one.

These three divine persons or divine beings are one.

What you are saying is God reveals Himself as the Father, as well as the Son and also as the Spirit.

This is oneness theology at its core.

 

[RandyK]

It is a non-sequitur argument that follows...
God is the Savior who saved us by sending us Jesus.
Jesus is the Savior because he did the work God sent him to do.
Therefore, God and Jesus are both the *same* Savior. They are the same God, but they are distinct Persons.

No, the Father sent the Son. Both participated in our Salvation, but in doing so they functioned as distinct Persons, one sending, and the other doing what he was sent to do.

This makes them distinct persons, even though they both emanate as a revelation from the same God. We could not understand the Father, the Son, or the Spirit unless it comes to us via a Divine revelation. And so, we must understand their distinction as a matter of revelation, while sensing the unity of their Deity.

 

[JLB]

Yes Yahweh is tooled so that we can speak what was rendered unspeakable by Hebrews afraid to speak the Name. But any symbol of something doesn't stop being a symbol of something just because it is misspelled or corrupted in some way, as long as the symbol is still understood to represent what it does. This is a non-argument to me.

The Name of the LORD is Jesus.

The name above all names.