The Trinity

[JLB]

I am surprised at your claim and that you need this passage to support your position.

For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one. 1 John 5:7

I not surprised you deny that there are three that bear witness in heaven.

 

[JLB]

I know your belief. It has introduced error not found in the NT. I'm only showing you that you believe in a created Son of Man in Mary's womb.

I believe there was physical body prepared in Mary’s womb for the Spirit of the LORD to inhabit.

Therefore, when He came into the world, He said:
“Sacrifice and offering You did not desire,
But a body You have prepared for Me.
Hebrews 10:5

 

[JLB]

I know your belief. It has introduced error not found in the NT. I'm only showing you that you believe in a created Son of Man in Mary's womb. Body and spirit despite stating the Son descended . A body was prepared for Him and the Son who was and His spirit descended from above and was in that body. This is not a issue as His spirit is not Deity. God His Father is the only Deity. The Deity that was pleased to dwell in Him is His God and Father who alone is unbegotten. And they are one as Jesus stated. The Fathers works Jesus performed testify to this oneness. And the Father in Him spoke to us in these last days by His Son. The Father is the source of all truth Jesus testified to.

We also believe He descended from above. What part of Him descended from above if not His own spirit as you believe in a crated Son of Man? You guys keep stating things are so without any reasonable explanation.

I see Him and the Father as ONE. He is all that the Father is. God He has a place on His Fathers throne. Sovereign Authority. Heaven and earth move at the command of the Son even so He abides within the framework of His Fathers will. The Father does whatever He is pleased to do. A difference shown.


The other variant found in Greek manuscripts is the only begotten God. Thats begotten as opposed to the made up and introduced error of "eternally begotten". A like to like begotten Son of the Father would be God. In order to maintain one God the Deity that lives in the Son would be the Fathers as from Him all things come. He is the source stated of all things. God created by His Son. God spoke to us by His Son, God reconciled all things to Himself through Christ blood on the cross. God exalted His Son above all others except Himself.

I believe the Son who was descended from above and was in that body. You are the one who believes in a post creation created Son. A spirit of a Man. A spirit of a Man did not descend from above. Nor did a spirit of a man see the Father and appear in flesh. Hello?

Moses asked for a name.

Jesus was not giving a name but addressing, "you are not 50 years old, and you have seen Abraham."
God's firstborn would be Before Abraham unlike the post creation spirit of a man you believe in.

I asked Jesus about the trinity. He is Gods firstborn and has always been the Son. I have given you the understanding I received from above but you don't like His answers. All I can give is sound reasoning and scripture.
Perhaps you should ask Jesus is this truth.
Is Jesus God?
He never dies.
Yes, He is all that the Father is.
No, He has always been the Son.

You have not addressed the obvious.

And the Angel of the LORD appeared to him in a flame of fire from the midst of a bush. So he looked, and behold, the bush was burning with fire, but the bush was not consumed. Moreover He said, “I am the God of your father—the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.” And Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look upon God. Exodus 3:2,6

• the Angel of the LORD appeared to him in a flame of fire
• I am the God of your father—the God of Abraham
• And Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look upon God

The Angel of the Lord is God; the God of Abraham


No one in the Old Testament saw God the Father.


When Abram was ninety-nine years old, the LORD appeared to Abram and said to him, “I am Almighty God; walk before Me and be blameless. Genesis 17:1

Words of Christ in red:

“I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End,” says the Lord, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.” Revelation 1:8

 

[JLB]

Is Jesus God?
He never dies.
Yes, He is all that the Father is.
No, He has always been the Son.

Ok.

Then we agree. The Son is all that the Father is; God

 

[Randy]

I believe there was physical body prepared in Mary’s womb for the Spirit of the LORD to inhabit.

Therefore, when He came into the world, He said:
“Sacrifice and offering You did not desire,
But a body You have prepared for Me.
Hebrews 10:5

I believe it was His spirit that descended and was in that body. The spirit of the Firstborn of God. That the Deity of the First and Last was living in Him. His God and our God. His Father and our Father. They are one. Anyway, orthodoxy believes in a post creation created Son of Man as the spirit of a man did not descend from above but was formed in Mary's womb. Not So.

The person of the Father alone is the one even the Son calls the only true God. Therefore, this is not a possible answer True God FROM True God. The Deity is the First and Last and clearly it was, is and remains the Fathers always. So, calling that Deity as Jesus and the use of a stated being with no beginning from another person are both introduced error not found in the NT. The Father is unbegotten, and Jesus is the only begotten like to like Son of the Father. OR the only begotten God from the beginning that appeared in flesh as an eyewitness of the Father. John 1:18 Its begotten not the made up eternally begotten.

Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

 

[Randy]

You have not addressed the obvious.

And the Angel of the LORD appeared to him in a flame of fire from the midst of a bush. So he looked, and behold, the bush was burning with fire, but the bush was not consumed. Moreover He said, “I am the God of your father—the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.” And Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look upon God. Exodus 3:2,6

• the Angel of the LORD appeared to him in a flame of fire
• I am the God of your father—the God of Abraham
• And Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look upon God

The Angel of the Lord is God; the God of Abraham


No one in the Old Testament saw God the Father.


When Abram was ninety-nine years old, the LORD appeared to Abram and said to him, “I am Almighty God; walk before Me and be blameless. Genesis 17:1

Words of Christ in red:

“I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End,” says the Lord, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.” Revelation 1:8

God spoke through His Angel. Jesus is not an Angel He is the Son.
The Deity in the Son is the First and Last and they are one. The Deity, (Spirit), calls out who He is.
And the spirit of the Son calls out who He is. The Firstborn of all creation. (His spirit) The spirit that descended into the body prepared for Him. The spirit that ascended to where He was before.
And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;

The Church of the Firstborn.

 

[JLB]

I believe it was His spirit that descended and was in that body. The spirit of the Firstborn of God. That the Deity of the First and Last was living in Him. His God and our God. His Father and our Father. They are one. Anyway, orthodoxy believes in a post creation created Son of Man as the spirit of a man did not descend from above but was formed in Mary's womb. Not So.

Do you believe the Spirit of Christ is God?

Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
Romans 8:9-10

By this passage I think we can all agree that the Spirit of Christ dwells in all the people of God simultaneously.


We also see the Spirit of Christ dwelled in the Old Testament prophets saying thus says the LORD, and speaking forth things to come.

Of this salvation the prophets have inquired and searched carefully, who prophesied of the grace that would come to you, searching what, or what manner of time, the Spirit of Christ who was in them was indicating when He testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow. 1 Peter 1:10-11


Can we agree that the Spirit of Christ is indeed Christ, the only begotten Son of God, and He preexisted and spoke forth as God through the Old Testament prophets?



Agree or disagree?

 

[JLB]

God spoke through His Angel. Jesus is not an Angel He is the Son.

Angels are called sons of God.

The Angel of God is The Son of God.

He shall cover you with His feathers,
And under His wings you shall take refuge;
His truth shall be your shield and buckler.
Psalms 91:4

 

[Free]

Thank you at least exposing yourself, in that you prefer man made doctrine over the scriptures.

Not at all.

This is inspired scripture.

For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one. 1 John 5:7

This is most likely not original and is man-made. The irony.

What is not scripture is the phrase “divine persons”.

Which is fallacious and so not relevant.

Language and meanings of what?

The Roman Catholic councils?

Let’s all teach what the scriptures say; the doctrine of Christ.

This is fallaciously begging the question. If you would actually love God with all your mind, you would learn to reason well and see that the doctrine of the Trinity is based on Scripture, including what Jesus taught.

If you were wise with the wisdom from above you would promote what the scriptures say and not the traditions of men.

Again, begging the question. Everything I have given is based on Scripture.

Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son.
2 John 9

Your self-righteous, false piety is rather nauseating.

 

[Randy]

Do you believe the Spirit of Christ is God?

I believe in only ONE true God. There is only one Deity no matter how many persons you wish to assign to that one Deity. It's the Fathers Deity always that is it is the Fathers Spirit always and there is only ONE. The Firstborn has His own spirit as a child of His God and Father but has been gifted the fullness of that one Deity to dwell/live in Him forever. He and the Father are one in that Deity. That Deity in the First and Last. The Spirit speaks only what He hears. When the Spirit speaks what He hears from the mind of Christ we state the Spirit of Christ. The Father sent His Spirit in Jesus's name. In a believer that one Spirit conveys the will and mind of Christ. He's in the persona of the Son yet again it's the Spirit of truth, the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of God that dwells in us in Jesus name. There is only one not 3.

Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
Romans 8:9-10

I have the Spirit of Christ in me and my body is the temple of the Holy Spirit and Jesus also referred to that other advocate from Himself as the Spirit of truth whom the Father would send in His name.

By this passage I think we can all agree that the Spirit of Christ dwells in all the people of God simultaneously.


We also see the Spirit of Christ dwelled in the Old Testament prophets saying thus says the LORD, and speaking forth things to come.

The new creation is post resurrection only. God has sent His Spirit into the world from ancient times and in these last days He sent His Son. Both proceed from the only true God.

Of this salvation the prophets have inquired and searched carefully, who prophesied of the grace that would come to you, searching what, or what manner of time, the Spirit of Christ who was in them was indicating when He testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow. 1 Peter 1:10-11


Can we agree that the Spirit of Christ is indeed Christ, the only begotten Son of God, and He preexisted and spoke forth as God through the Old Testament prophets?

As I have stated. Neither the Father nor the Son need to descend to speak to you or covey answers to prayer to you. They can speak by the ONE Spirit.

But when they arrest you, do not worry about what to say or how to say it. At that time you will be given what to say, 20for it will not be you speaking, but the Spirit of your Father speaking through you.
Don’t you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work.

Agree or disagree?

As I stated.
But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.

And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever— 17 the Spirit of truth.

Jesus would not need to ask another for His own spirit nor speak of His own spirit as another from Himself.
Again, I have the Spirit of Christ in me, and my body is the temple of the Holy Spirit.

The Father is unbegotten and Jesus is His First begotten.

 

[Randy]

Angels are called sons of God.

The Angel of God is The Son of God.

He shall cover you with His feathers,
And under His wings you shall take refuge;
His truth shall be your shield and buckler.
Psalms 91:4

If you read Hebrews 1 then you should seen the contrast of Jesus's Sonship vs Gods other children the angels of God. And it's about the Son not about the angel.

Jesus was in the form of God in the beginning. The Deity of the First and Last lives in Him without limit. (fullness)
He wasn't called an angel He was called God. I would never refer to Jesus as an Angel for He is the Son nor do I believe the Spirit of truth would ever give testimony of the Son as an angel so I state your mistaken in your belief that the angel was Jesus.

“But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.

As I explained before God was there with His angel and Moses by His Spirit. The Spirit was speaking by His angel. Moses could see the Angel but not the Spirit. The presence of the First and last was there and it was Holy ground.

 

[JLB]

This is most likely not original and is man-made. The irony.

Says who? man?

Sad.

 

[JLB]

Which is fallacious and so not relevant.

If it is “fallacious” then post the scripture where the three members of the Godhead are called “divine persons”.

It’s time for you to be honest about these things.

Let’s move toward being a community that is unified around the truth, the scriptures teach, rather than traditions of men.


Why does that seem fallacious to you?

 

[JLB]

I believe in only ONE true God. There is only one Deity no matter how many persons you wish to assign to that one Deity. It's the Fathers Deity always that is it is the Fathers Spirit always and there is only ONE. The Firstborn has His own spirit as a child of His God and Father but has been gifted the fullness of that one Deity to dwell/live in Him forever. He and the Father are one in that Deity. That Deity in the First and Last. The Spirit speaks only what He hears. When the Spirit speaks what He hears from the mind of Christ we state the Spirit of Christ. The Father sent His Spirit in Jesus's name. In a believer that one Spirit conveys the will and mind of Christ. He's in the persona of the Son yet again it's the Spirit of truth, the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of God that dwells in us in Jesus name. There is only one not 3.

All I asked you was:

Do you believe the Spirit of Christ is God?

Based on these scriptures can you answer the question?

Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
Romans 8:9-10

We also see the Spirit of Christ dwelled in the Old Testament prophets saying thus says the LORD, and speaking forth things to come.

Of this salvation the prophets have inquired and searched carefully, who prophesied of the grace that would come to you, searching what, or what manner of time, the Spirit of Christwho was in them was indicating when He testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow. 1 Peter 1:10-11

 

[JLB]

If you read Hebrews 1 then you should seen the contrast of Jesus's Sonship vs Gods other children the angels of God. And it's about the Son not about the angel.

But to the Son He says:
“Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness;
Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You
With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”
And:“You, LORD, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth,
And the heavens are the work of Your hands. Hebrews 1:8-10



The Son is call God, by the Father.

• But to the Son He says: “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;

The Son is referred to as LORD (YHWH) by the Father.

• You, LORD, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth,

The Father says the Son created the heavens and the earth.

• You, LORD, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth, and the heavens are the work of Your hands.

Do you agree ?

 

[Free]

Says who? man?

Who else? Who gave you your English translation? Who made copies of the autographs that make up all our manuscript evidence? Who has learned koine Greek so as to be able to translate into different languages? Your argument to "man" is uninformed and not relevant.

Sad.

That's not what's sad in this whole discussion.

If it is “fallacious” then post the scripture where the three members of the Godhead are called “divine persons”.

That is precisely what I said is fallacious. As I have pointed out to you many times previously, whether or not words or phrases appear in Scripture is irrelevant as to whether or not those words or phrases tell biblical truth. The NT clearly tells us there are three divine persons without actually stating "divine persons."

It’s time for you to be honest about these things.

I always am. It's long time that you learned to use your mind as God intended by learning to reason well.

Let’s move toward being a community that is unified around the truth, the scriptures teach, rather than traditions of men.

We should, but that requires you to learn to reason better. Even that statement of yours is fallaciously begging the question.

Why does that seem fallacious to you?

Because it is. It is an error in reasoning that says if certain words or phrases don't appear verbatim in the Bible that therefore they do not teach truth. It's even worse in that different English translations can have slightly different or quite different wording of things, never mind translations that aren't in English. That alone should tell you that your reasoning is in error.

 

[Randy]

But to the Son He says:
“Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness;
Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You
With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”
And:“You, LORD, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth,
And the heavens are the work of Your hands. Hebrews 1:8-10



The Son is call God, by the Father.

• But to the Son He says: “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;

The Son is referred to as LORD (YHWH) by the Father.

• You, LORD, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth,

The Father says the Son created the heavens and the earth.

• You, LORD, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth, and the heavens are the work of Your hands.

Do you agree ?

I believe as I have stated all along many times.

 

[Randy]

All I asked you was:

Do you believe the Spirit of Christ is God?

Based on these scriptures can you answer the question?

Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
Romans 8:9-10

We also see the Spirit of Christ dwelled in the Old Testament prophets saying thus says the LORD, and speaking forth things to come.

Of this salvation the prophets have inquired and searched carefully, who prophesied of the grace that would come to you, searching what, or what manner of time, the Spirit of Christwho was in them was indicating when He testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow. 1 Peter 1:10-11

I answered your question. Did you not take time to read my answer?

 

[JLB]

Who else? Who gave you your English translation? Who made copies of the autographs that make up all our manuscript evidence? Who has learned koine Greek so as to be able to translate into different languages? Your argument to "man" is uninformed and not relevant.

Men assembled the inspired letters and writings into the Bible.

The letters and writings were inspired.

 

[JLB]

I answered your question. Did you not take time to read my answer?

If you read Hebrews 1 then you should seen the contrast of Jesus's Sonship vs Gods other children the angels of God. And it's about the Son not about the angel.

Jesus was in the form of God in the beginning. The Deity of the First and Last lives in Him without limit. (fullness)
He wasn't called an angel He was called God. I would never refer to Jesus as an Angel for He is the Son nor do I believe the Spirit of truth would ever give testimony of the Son as an angel so I state your mistaken in your belief that the angel was Jesus.

“But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.

As I explained before God was there with His angel and Moses by His Spirit. The Spirit was speaking by His angel. Moses could see the Angel but not the Spirit. The presence of the First and last was there and it was Holy ground.

I read your post but never found an answer to my question.

Is that a yes or no.

Do you believe the Spirit of Christ is God?

• Yes, I believe the Spirit of Christ is God.
• No, I don’t believe the Spirit of Christ who spoke through the prophets is God.

Based on these scriptures can you answer the question?

Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
Romans 8:9-10

We also see the Spirit of Christ dwelled in the Old Testament prophets saying thus says the LORD, and speaking forth things to come.

Of this salvation the prophets have inquired and searched carefully, who prophesied of the grace that would come to you, searching what, or what manner of time, the Spirit of Christwho was in them was indicating when He testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow. 1 Peter 1:10-11