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Bible Study The unforgiveable sin ?

Gods Word is not locked into time or historical context, limited by same. His Word has engaged the same ways at all times and forever.
I appreciate the detail of your reply Brother smaller, though I reckon I go a different route as to God's dealing with man through the ages.
I just happen to be in the process of transcribing this year's Summer Youth Camp lessons from CD's to pamphlet form. If what you say is true, that is if I'm reading it correctly I put forth this following example refuting the idea that God deals with us in the same manner that He did with Israel for instance. Let's take the example of the two different prodigal sons; One in the Old Testament, and the One in the New Testament. The first we read of is in Deut 21:18-21. If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, Deut 21:21 And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear. I believe you will not agree with doing that today. Did God change, or just the method He dealt with them? Read the difference in what we read of the prodigal in Luke 15:11-32. The Father waited with a hug, a robe, a ring, a kiss, and a fatted calf for his son. If you can't identify my doctrine, I'm a dispensationalist. :)
 
all that is in the bible is definitely not addressed to us "but what is written is written so that we may bring to remembrance and recall that Jesus is the Christ the son of God and so that we may have life in His Name[Jn.20:31]
 
I appreciate the detail of your reply Brother smaller, though I reckon I go a different route as to God's dealing with man through the ages.
I just happen to be in the process of transcribing this year's Summer Youth Camp lessons from CD's to pamphlet form. If what you say is true, that is if I'm reading it correctly I put forth this following example refuting the idea that God deals with us in the same manner that He did with Israel for instance.

IF we insert a historical external imposition in those sights, then no, that can not be true. But we DO know these things were written for "us."

IN the same way what transpired with the Apostles that is written, is also written for us. These things are not meant to be bound or seen by historical contexts and filters.

To see this is to step back from the historical context, and see that God dealt with good and evil in man. How that plays out never changes. The settings in which it plays out is individualized or historical but the methodology doesn't change, nor does God change. God and His Ways are not changed by history.

Let's take the example of the two different prodigal sons; One in the Old Testament, and the One in the New Testament. The first we read of is in Deut 21:18-21. If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, Deut 21:21 And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear. I believe you will not agree with doing that today. Did God change, or just the method He dealt with them?

I could go on at length in expositions of the above. The Word came first to "natural man." This is what Israel of the O.T. symbolizes to us. We know the natural man can not understand the things of God nor are they given to understand by God Himself.

But do those Words still apply? Absolutely, they do. But not in the literal sense of application. We KNOW the law for example is spiritual and must be understood in those terms. The law you speak of has 'literally' nothing to do with what transpired with those natural men.

Had they all been honest they'd have lined up across from each others and all stoned each others to death because they were all disobedient sinners. The natural man is, by his natural nature, a blinded lying hypocrite.

I might call the 'literal' sense of the law as Divine bait to trap and condemn the natural man.
And that IS Gods Intentions with the Law. To KILL the natural man by making sin utterly sinful and to empower sin.

Citings:

Romans 7:
13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.

Romans 7:14
For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

1 Corinthians 15:
56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.

God has no inkling whatsoever to bless the sin indwelling our flesh or the evil present within us. The law is it's enemy, but that working is forced to show and reveal itself BY the law, PROVING that indwelling SIN and EVIL is an internal reality in MAN.
Read the difference in what we read of the prodigal in Luke 15:11-32. The Father waited with a hug, a robe, a ring, a kiss, and a fatted calf for his son. If you can't identify my doctrine, I'm a dispensationalist. :)

uh, yeah. Not a fan of dispensationalism unless we break it down to Gods dispensation to the natural man and the spiritual man, and we include these parties to the dissections, which dispensationalism sorely lacks in understandings:

Ephesians 6:
12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

We should understand that the above adverse powers/entities/wickedness have been on earth from the beginning.

It is THEY who commit blasphemy IN man. It is THEY who can not be forgiven.
 
N the same way what transpired with the Apostles that is written, is also written for us.
I agree with your thinking of all God's word being written for us, and that for ensamples (1Cor 10:11) but not for our justification to righteousness.
Not a fan of dispensationalism unless we break it down to Gods dispensation to the natural man and the spiritual man, and we include these parties to the dissections, which dispensationalism sorely lacks in understandings:
Hopefully I do separate the context of the spiritual from that of the natural man. The testing of the natural man changed through time, and even Paul was given a dispensation: Col 1:25 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; (Col 1:25). Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations. (Col 1:26).
God evidently did not reveal all His word at once.

Want to know the difference? Peter said this of Paul's dispensation in 2 Pet 3:16. As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood . . Today is the same with men running after laws and ordinances originally given to show man his need; it is also known as the ministration of death. (2 Cor 3:7). It's type originally? The tree of knowledge of good and evil. To come to the knowledge of God's good is to die due to our inability to meet His righteous requirements. (Gen 2:17).
. :wave2
 
I agree with your thinking of all God's word being written for us, and that for ensamples (1Cor 10:11) but not for our justification to righteousness.

We are and can only be justified in and by the Spirit of God in Christ. This is not a path we can 'earn' of ourselves. God in Christ is "in us" by faith. Technically speaking we don't even exist. And history will prove this to be the case for all of us.

Colossians 3:3
For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.

The eternal life we have in Christ is in Him. It will not be a life of ourselves and isn't, even now. It naturally takes a lifetime for any believer to come to grips with the fact of their own death.

Galatians 2:20
I am crucified
with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

It's problematic for dead people with a hidden life to really perceive what's going on, I might propose.
Hopefully I do separate the context of the spiritual from that of the natural man. The testing of the natural man changed through time, and even Paul was given a dispensation:

There is no "testing" of the natural man. God Divinely purposed, from within the natural/flesh man, to bring forth a FINAL eternally composed Body of Christ.

1 Cor. 15:42-47 spells out our "current state" which all results in our death. It is a planting in weakness, dishonor, corruption and a natural body that WILL die, period. And what comes afterwards, when that "natural man" is finally put off, with all of it's purposefully DIVINE faults in our temporary planting here on earth, is Christ Only.

Phil. 3:21 shows us the same thing in fast track.

God Will and Does have His Mercy and Grace. But it is NOT to the natural/flesh man, but to the final product.

It is hard for us to understand that currently, God, by His Spirit, is both totally FOR us, and simultaneously totally AGAINST us. And that we, in the flesh, have a similar relationship. In the flesh we are against the Spirit and the Spirit against the flesh.

Galatians 5:
17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

The dispensation to the natural man hasn't changed. God simply "tolerates" the natural man in and by His Own Divine Patience, His Own Long Suffering, for His Own Greater Purposes which are all contained "in Christ."
 
IF we insert a historical external imposition in those sights, then no, that can not be true. But we DO know these things were written for "us."

IN the same way what transpired with the Apostles that is written, is also written for us. These things are not meant to be bound or seen by historical contexts and filters.

To see this is to step back from the historical context, and see that God dealt with good and evil in man. How that plays out never changes. The settings in which it plays out is individualized or historical but the methodology doesn't change, nor does God change. God and His Ways are not changed by history.



I could go on at length in expositions of the above. The Word came first to "natural man." This is what Israel of the O.T. symbolizes to us. We know the natural man can not understand the things of God nor are they given to understand by God Himself.

But do those Words still apply? Absolutely, they do. But not in the literal sense of application. We KNOW the law for example is spiritual and must be understood in those terms. The law you speak of has 'literally' nothing to do with what transpired with those natural men.

Had they all been honest they'd have lined up across from each others and all stoned each others to death because they were all disobedient sinners. The natural man is, by his natural nature, a blinded lying hypocrite.

I might call the 'literal' sense of the law as Divine bait to trap and condemn the natural man.
And that IS Gods Intentions with the Law. To KILL the natural man by making sin utterly sinful and to empower sin.

Citings:

Romans 7:
13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.

Romans 7:14
For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

1 Corinthians 15:
56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.

God has no inkling whatsoever to bless the sin indwelling our flesh or the evil present within us. The law is it's enemy, but that working is forced to show and reveal itself BY the law, PROVING that indwelling SIN and EVIL is an internal reality in MAN.


uh, yeah. Not a fan of dispensationalism unless we break it down to Gods dispensation to the natural man and the spiritual man, and we include these parties to the dissections, which dispensationalism sorely lacks in understandings:

Ephesians 6:
12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

We should understand that the above adverse powers/entities/wickedness have been on earth from the beginning.

It is THEY who commit blasphemy IN man. It is THEY who can not be forgiven.
 
so just like in the garden man will not accept the blame but blame the devil and others and even unforgivingly and blasphemously the HS
 
Of course all things are written to us.
Things in the OT was shadows to come in the New.
Jesus referred to the O.T many times.
The 10 commandments are still important today..
When did it change that we could serve any god?
Do we have the right to murder now? Steal?
Only thing that has changed is the sacrificial rituals, He became the ultimate sacrifice.
He became our Passover lamb, and so forth...
We just have a different way for forgiveness.
He fulfilled all these..
He is the same God, yesterday, today and 4ever.
So yes, the word of God is to all for examples and learning of our Lord and Saviour..
 
so just like in the garden man will not accept the blame but blame the devil and others and even unforgivingly and blasphemously the HS

It is quite entirely pointless to see only Adam and Eve in the events of sin. Mark 4:15 shows what happened to them, inside. For the natural man, their faults/sins/doubts are never about 'just them alone' but the deception of Satan within their hearts, blinding them. Acts 26:18, Romans 7:21, Romans 11:8, 2 Cor. 3:14, 2 Cor. 4:4, Eph. 2:2, Eph. 6:11-12, etc. etc.

In truthful exposition of scripture (exposing), the expositor will point out the obvious. 1 John 3:8 tells us that 'man' is not alone in sin.
 
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There is no "testing" of the natural man. God Divinely purposed, from within the natural/flesh man, to bring forth a FINAL eternally composed Body of Christ.
That near sounds like Calvin's Irresistible grace doctrine.

No testing?

Dan 5:27 TEKEL; Thou art weighed in the balances, and art found wanting.

Job 23:10 But he knoweth the way that I take: when he hath tried me, I shall come forth as gold.
 
That near sounds like Calvin's Irresistible grace doctrine.

Not quite, but similar. We might recognize that when we are called out of this world by God in Christ to "hear" His Words, to have faith in Him, it is of Him in us. When believers say that Jesus Is Lord, they do not do so of their own accord. It is a working of the Holy Spirit in them to make that statement:

1 Corinthians 12:3
Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

In other words, we are not speaking just of and in ourselves. There is a working of God in Christ, in such. We are not alone in our faith.

No testing?

The 'adversity' and 'tribulation' and 'chastisements' we experience in this present life is God in Christ dealing with indwelling sin and evil present "in our flesh." It is meant precisely to bring the natural/flesh man to his death, NOT his continuance. NOT his uplifting.

God is the enemy of the flesh, or more precisely, the adverse spiritual antagonism that is therein. It is adverse spiritual activity, because it is not forensic. We can't cut open the flesh and find, forensically, sin and evil. Therefore it is a working of spiritual disobedience, which God has purposefully put "man in the flesh" UNDER.

When we are saved, we are 'technically' supposed to be in a position of dominance OVER that working, understanding as Paul did, that it is "NO MORE I." But we do not rid our flesh of that working, as Paul clearly shows us in "his body of death" and his "wretched man" position. (all from Romans 7)

Jesus in our "midst" divides us from that working of spiritual disobedience. And we don't always win, just so we are reminded that it's still there.

Matthew 10:34
Think not that I am come to send peace on earth
: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

Luke 12:

51 Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division:

We should not be led to see Jesus as the equivalent of "Casper the friendly ghost." That is not the case.

Dan 5:27 TEKEL; Thou art weighed in the balances, and art found wanting.

Job 23:10 But he knoweth the way that I take: when he hath tried me, I shall come forth as gold.

What comes forth on the other side of this temporal life is only Jesus, and His Body Components, Perfected "in Him."

We will not stand alone, but we will stand AS ONE.
 
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The unforgivable sin is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, which in the context is calling the Holy Spirit the devil... speaking a derogatory word against the Holy Spirit is the language Jesus used.

“Therefore I say to you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven men. Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come. Matthew 12:31-32


If unbelief is the unpardonable sin, then no one could be saved, as all have unbelief, until they don't.


JLB
 
is this one off and rare and confined to individuals or widespread and what makes it unforgiveable if repented - twinc

If can be both individual or corporate. It is not any specific action that can be repented. It is holding to the world view that the legitimately good influence of the Holy Spirit must be perceived as evil, or conversely attributing a legitimate evil influence to the Holy Spirit. Those who hold to either end of this world view will be blind to their need to repent.
 
If can be both individual or corporate. It is not any specific action that can be repented. It is holding to the world view that the legitimately good influence of the Holy Spirit must be perceived as evil, or conversely attributing a legitimate evil influence to the Holy Spirit. Those who hold to either end of this world view will be blind to their need to repent.

agree - spot on but you do not say whether widespread - twinc
 
The unforgivable sin is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, which in the context is calling the Holy Spirit the devil... speaking a derogatory word against the Holy Spirit is the language Jesus used.

“Therefore I say to you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven men. Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come. Matthew 12:31-32


If unbelief is the unpardonable sin, then no one could be saved, as all have unbelief, until they don't.


JLB
 
Calling the Holy Spirit an evil Spirit is blasphemy of the Spirit.
When the Pharisees called the Holy Spirit working through Jesus an unclean Spirit they were calling the Holy Spirit a lying Spirit of darkness. Whenever a person turns away from the conviction of the Holy Spirit in unbelief, John says they are calling the Holy Spirit a liar:

"the one who does not believe God has made Him (the Holy Spirit who testifies) a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has given concerning His Son." (1 John 5:10 NASB)

That sin--the sin of willful disbelief--will never be overlooked or brushed aside.

"28“Truly I say to you, all sins shall be forgiven the sons of men, and whatever blasphemies they utter;29but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin”—30because they were saying, “He has an unclean spirit.”" (Mark 3:28-30 NASB)
 
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