The unity of the Christian faith...

[Scott1]

I would like to start a thread that builds us up as believers in Jesus Christ.... I've quickly grown tired of all the "US vs THEM" debates that only serve to hurt the Body of Christ.

If we HAD to... stranded on an island for instance :D , do you think it would be possible for us to come together and have some form of shared faith? Can we even agree on the basics of the Christian faith?

I think we can... even if it is on the most basic principles, I'd like as many people as possible to contribute to show that we indeed do love our neighbor.

Principle #1 The books of Scripture firmly, faithfully, and without error teach that truth which God, for the sake of our salvation, wished to see confided to the Sacred Scriptures.

Can most of us at least agree on that?

 

[handy]

Your 'stranded on an island' analogy struck a chord with me. Back in '86 I had the pleasure of being able to go to Ireland with a church planting team. At the time I was in a Calvinist church that believed and taught that the RCC was the great apostate and the Pope an anti-Christ. I was also working for an Assemblies of God that had their own definitions of who was to be considered baptized by the Spirit and who wasn't (I wasn't according to them). All these factions seemed very normal to me.

When I got to Ireland though, it was totally different. While a lot of folks are nominal Catholics or nominal Anglicans or nominal Presbyterians there, the key word here is 'nominal'. Religion simply has a different sort of connotation there in Ireland. Real born-again believers, the kind that have that personal connection to God and love to serve Him are very rare in Dublin. So rare that the Body of Christ tends to ignore whatever local congregation one is with and simply enjoy fellowship. Most evenings we visited with our Irish friends and at the various houses there were Catholics, Presbyterians, Pentecostal and Baptist all fellowshipping and all praying for one another and all looking for ways to spur each other on. It truly was my first taste of what the Body of Christ should and could be.

Yes, I agree with Principle #1.

 

[Veritas]

Interesting story handy, thanks for telling that. And yes, I agree with Principle #1 as well.

 

[Imagican]

Scot,

What a refreshing idea.

I have USED this exact analogy on numerous occasions concerning 'denominational doctrine'. I BELIEVE that the Bible was inspired for JUST such a 'purpose'. So that ALL that may READ it be LED by The Spirit into an understanding of God's PURPOSE for US. Not 'us' as in 'Baptists' or WHATEVER, but, US as in The Body of Christ. Unified through the will of God as offered in example of His Son Jesus Christ. Brought together BY Faith in that which IS Holy.

This could be a very interesting thread if we can KEEP it ON TOPIC. Not only interesting but able to offer edification as well.

MEC

 

[RadicalReformer]

I would like to start a thread that builds us up as believers in Jesus Christ.... I've quickly grown tired of all the "US vs THEM" debates that only serve to hurt the Body of Christ.

If we HAD to... stranded on an island for instance :D , do you think it would be possible for us to come together and have some form of shared faith? Can we even agree on the basics of the Christian faith?

I think we can... even if it is on the most basic principles, I'd like as many people as possible to contribute to show that we indeed do love our neighbor.

Principle #1 The books of Scripture firmly, faithfully, and without error teach that truth which God, for the sake of our salvation, wished to see confided to the Sacred Scriptures.

Can most of us at least agree on that?

I will be upfront an honest - in regards to principle number 1 - almost impossible to agree since there is not agreement on what makes up the Scriptures.

The biggest issue that I have had in regards to Catholalicism is the terms that are used that make it appear that those who are not of the Roman Catholic faith are somehow less.

 

[biblecatholic]

I will be upfront an honest - in regards to principle number 1 - almost impossible to agree since there is not agreement on what makes up the Scriptures.

The biggest issue that I have had in regards to Catholalicism is the terms that are used that make it appear that those who are not of the Roman Catholic faith are somehow less.

I think it's unfair to outcry on this, since it seems as you believe the same thing about catholics

 

[Veritas]

I will be upfront an honest - in regards to principle number 1 - almost impossible to agree since there is not agreement on what makes up the Scriptures.

The biggest issue that I have had in regards to Catholalicism is the terms that are used that make it appear that those who are not of the Roman Catholic faith are somehow less.

I think it's unfair to outcry on this, since it seems as you believe the same thing about catholics

Can we agree that as far as we know, Catholics are not somehow less, nor are Protestants, or any other denomination if they say that they are Christian and exhibit fruits of the Spirit? God picks up our slack... isn't that the whole point of the Gospel? There can be no "less" in God's eyes when He sees us through Christ. I know there are those out there that say they are Christian and are obviously not (the Mormons come to mind) but isn't this different?

 

[Scott1]

The biggest issue that I have had in regards to Catholalicism is the terms that are used that make it appear that those who are not of the Roman Catholic faith are somehow less.

It's sad that in a thread that has nothing to do with denominations, you decided to voice an off-topic critisism of the Catholic faith. This thread is not about Catholisism, but about us together as Christians.

Please, everyone, do NOT talk about differences and bring up what you have a "problem" with.... save that for other threads.

This thread is about the principles being mentioned and how much we have in common. I pray that everyone can put aside their anger and focus on theology and less on denominational pride.

Allright... since it seems most of us believe principle #1, lets expand on that:

Principle #2 It is the Gospel message of Jesus Christ that is most important.... biblical canon and translations (KJV, NAB, etc) are less important than the message.

 

[handy]

Let's try to walk step-by-step with Scott on this for a bit and follow this thread in the spirit in which is was created, to find what we can agree on rather than on what divides. The OP states nothing about how Catholics view non-Catholics nor how non-Catholics view Catholics. Let's keep it that way and just seek to answer these questions as Christians.

RR, I agree that we don't all agree on what constitutes the totality of the Scriptures. For the sake of discussion though, I can agree with the statement as stated since the statement only references the 'Scriptures' rather than specific books. And, again, in the spirit of seeking what we can agree to, the bulk of what all Christians agree to are in the bulk of what all Christians agree are sacred Scriptures.

So far we have most participants agreeing with principle 1, with one who disagrees due to the differing definition of what constitutes the 'sacred Scriptures'.

Now on to principle 2: It is the Gospel message of Jesus Christ that is most important.... biblical canon and translations (KJV, NAB, etc) are less important than the message.

 

[handy]

I have to give a split answer for prinicple 2: I do agree that the Gospel is what is important, but canon defines what constitutes the gospel. I have to say that I think the 'canon', that is the books that we know are from God and the gospel are on in the same. I cannot agree therefore that 'canon' is 'less important' than the gospel.

I do agree wholeheartedly that translations are less important. While I believe there is value in evaluating a translation's integrity and ability to impart the 'spirit' of the Word, I do not think that we should divide over what translations should be used.

 

[Scott1]

I have to give a split answer for prinicple 2: I do agree that the Gospel is what is important, but canon defines what constitutes the gospel. I have to say that I think the 'canon', that is the books that we know are from God and the gospel are on in the same. I cannot agree therefore that 'canon' is 'less important' than the gospel.

I get ya.... but I don't know any group that has a different New Testament.... now I'm not one of those Christians who want to throw out the Old Testament.... what I mean is that if we agree on the Gospel messge/theology etc... is that more important than the canon used?

 

[Veritas]

I get ya.... but I don't know any group that has a different New Testament.... now I'm not one of those Christians who want to throw out the Old Testament.... what I mean is that if we agree on the Gospel messge/theology etc... is that more important than the canon used?

Ohhh... I get it... because some denominations have a different number of books. I think one could understand alot from the Gospel accounts alone, and I think anything is possible with God when it comes to moving us to saving faith. (I too, do not throw out the OT by the way). I guess I can also hypothesize and say that if someone just heard the simple saving message of Jesus Christ and knew it in their hearts without actually reading all the Bible... they would be saved. I'm guessing the theif on the cross next to Jesus didn't read much.

 

[Scott1]

I guess I can also hypothesize and say that if someone just heard the simple saving message of Jesus Christ and knew it in their hearts without actually reading all the Bible... they would be saved. I'm guessing the theif on the cross next to Jesus didn't read much.

EXACTLY! Again... I don't suggest coming up with a "summary Bible" and tossing out the Scriptures, but I want to know if anyone else agrees that being born again and living life in the Holy Spirit is more important to everyone than which Bible they read.

 

[stovebolts]

I guess I can also hypothesize and say that if someone just heard the simple saving message of Jesus Christ and knew it in their hearts without actually reading all the Bible... they would be saved. I'm guessing the theif on the cross next to Jesus didn't read much.

EXACTLY! Again... I don't suggest coming up with a "summary Bible" and tossing out the Scriptures, but I want to know if anyone else agrees that being born again and living life in the Holy Spirit is more important to everyone than which Bible they read.

Hi Scott,
Yes, I do agree that being 'born again' and 'living life in the Holy Spirit' is more important than which bible they read. (I'm not saying that the bible isn't important, or even translation). I'm thinking of 1 Timothy 3:15 if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God's household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.

I don't want to turn this discussion, but I see two things. I see the responsibility of teachers, (Romans 2:20-24) and those being taught . In other words, I see shepherds, and I see sheep. To a teacher, Canon and Tradition are very important as they help shepherd the flock to a deeper relationship with God, but to the flock itself (As well as the shepherd), the goal should be to guide others to live as God originally created us to live. By doing so, we all become teachers matureing in Christ.

Romans 15:14 I myself am convinced, my brothers, that you yourselves are full of goodness, complete in knowledge and competent to instruct one another.

I suppose if I could sum it down to one verse, it would have to be this one.

Romans 8:1 Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

I believe the operative in this verse would be, "IN. And what does this look like: To be In Christ that is? My first thought goes to Galatians 5:22-25. What does it look like when were not IN Christ? Perhaps Galatians 5:19-21 gives us a good view.

In summary, to be a teacher, not only takes on the responsibility to be "In" Christ, but also to bring others "Into" Christ to glorify God. By doing so, I believe that the results would be a deeper unity within our common faith.

Well, I'd better stop here...

Peace and Grace.

Jeff

 

[handy]

I guess I can also hypothesize and say that if someone just heard the simple saving message of Jesus Christ and knew it in their hearts without actually reading all the Bible... they would be saved. I'm guessing the theif on the cross next to Jesus didn't read much.

EXACTLY! Again... I don't suggest coming up with a "summary Bible" and tossing out the Scriptures, but I want to know if anyone else agrees that being born again and living life in the Holy Spirit is more important to everyone than which Bible they read.

Yes, I can agree with this as well. ;-)

 

[Imagican]

And ONCE again the 'man on the deserted island' comes to mind. For WHAT if that 'man' found the REMAINS of a Bible. And the ONLY part that was LEFT was....let's say the Gospel of Matthew. WHO here can SAY that this 'man' couldn't READ what He found, be inspired by The Spirit and COME to Christ? Developing a sincere and LASTING relationship and a PLACE within the Family of God.

And in this respect, there would BE no 'specific canon'. No denominationalism. NOTHING other than the relationship LED BY The Spirit.

Once we can ALL come to a recognition of this scenario BEING POSSIBLE and quite LITERALLY ABSOLUTE, then we can BEGIN to come together IN the unity that IS The Body of Christ.

Now, could this 'man' BENEFIT from 'others'? ABSOLUTELY. But he could SURELY suffer as well, IF the 'others' INSISTED upon him FOLLOWING THEM instead of God through His Son. And this is WHERE the 'problem of unity LAY'; that there ARE those that will INSIST that THIER way is the ONLY way. TOTALLY ignoring that it is NOT 'their interpretation that saves', but the acceptance of Christ INTO our hearts and adherance to His commandments. The CHIEFEST among them; to LOVE God above all else and our neighbors AS ourselves. And the ONLY way that this is even possible is acceptance of the forgiveness that has been OFFERED US and REFLECTING of that SAME forgiveness toward OTHERS.

Scot, you ARE a 'wise and understanding man'. The forum has benefited MUCH in what you have been able to offer. And HOPEFULLY you are able to offer example to ALL of how we CAN 'get past' the rudiments of 'religion' in order to offer edification REGARDLESS of denomination.

MEC

 

[Scott1]

My pal "MEC" got me thinking about being "inspired by the SPIRIT" and that got me thinking about another possible "principle":

Principle #3 No one of us can "merit/earn" salvation, each of us are saved by the grace of God through the power of Christ's death on the Cross.

 

[handy]

:smt023 Yep, I'm on board with that one.

I like the way you phrased this Scott1, that we cannot "merit" or "earn" our salvation, that it is by grace through the power of Christ's death on the cross.

This is best summed up in Ephesians 2:8-10. I see Ephesians 2:8-9 quoted a lot without 10 and I see Ephesians 2:10 quoted a lot without 8-9. But, I believe that God inspired Paul to write the words together, because they go together and show us the right relationship of grace and works:

For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of your own, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works that no man should boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

 

[Scott1]

:smt023 Yep, I'm on board with that one.

Amen! Maybe somethime in another thread, I would like to see what everyone thinks about what (if anything) our "works" merit..... I'm interested to see what everyone thinks about that.

Everyone else agree on this (Principle #3)?

 

[Imagican]

Absolutely.

And I HOPE that those that read my PREVIOUS reply do NOT confuse my offerings CONCERNING 'works' with a BELIEF that one is ABLE to 'work their way to heaven'. IMPOSSIBLE. For there is NO 'righteous work' ABLE to 'cover' ANY of our 'sins'. That was accomplished by Christ as a GIFT OF GOD to those WILLING to accept it.

MEC