The unity of the Christian faith...

[Imagican]

:smt023 Yep, I'm on board with that one.

I like the way you phrased this Scott1, that we cannot "merit" or "earn" our salvation, that it is by grace through the power of Christ's death on the cross.

This is best summed up in Ephesians 2:8-10. I see Ephesians 2:8-9 quoted a lot without 10 and I see Ephesians 2:10 quoted a lot without 8-9. But, I believe that God inspired Paul to write the words together, because they go together and show us the right relationship of grace and works:

For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of your own, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works that no man should boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

AMEN!!

MEC

 

[Scott1]

That was accomplished by Christ as a GIFT OF GOD to those WILLING to accept it.

Amen my friend.... and that's the key: those who are WILLING to accept it..... and that's a difficult thing.... more difficult than some people want to admit... it is a life-long radical change of who and what you are. Some people, however, believe it is enough to ONLY believe.... and their works betray their true "heart".

My favorite theologian once said: "The proper work of the Holy Spirit is abiding unity..." and anyone or anything that is working against the unity of the Body of Christ is working against the Holy Spirit.

I pray more people join this thread.... may the Holy Spirit guide them to seek unity with their brothers and sisters.

All glory to God,
S

 

[stovebolts]

Principle #3 No one of us can "merit/earn" salvation, each of us are saved by the grace of God through the power of Christ's death on the Cross.

That was accomplished by Christ as a GIFT OF GOD to those WILLING to accept it

Amen my friend.... and that's the key: those who are WILLING to accept it..... and that's a difficult thing.... more difficult than some people want to admit... it is a life-long radical change of who and what you are. Some people, however, believe it is enough to ONLY believe.... and their works betray their true "heart".

Amen.

Philippians 1:27 Whatever happens, conduct yourselves in a manner worthy of the gospel of Christ. Then, whether I come and see you or only hear about you in my absence, I will know that you stand firm in one spirit, contending as one man for the faith of the gospel

 

[Veritas]

Yup... I'm certainly on board with Principle #3 as well

 

[RadicalReformer]

That was accomplished by Christ as a GIFT OF GOD to those WILLING to accept it.

Amen my friend.... and that's the key: those who are WILLING to accept it..... and that's a difficult thing.... more difficult than some people want to admit... it is a life-long radical change of who and what you are. Some people, however, believe it is enough to ONLY believe.... and their works betray their true "heart".

My favorite theologian once said: "The proper work of the Holy Spirit is abiding unity..." and anyone or anything that is working against the unity of the Body of Christ is working against the Holy Spirit.

I pray more people join this thread.... may the Holy Spirit guide them to seek unity with their brothers and sisters.

All glory to God,
S

Who is your favorite theologian? I also would be interested in the rest of the quote.

 

[RadicalReformer]

I would like to start a thread that builds us up as believers in Jesus Christ.... I've quickly grown tired of all the "US vs THEM" debates that only serve to hurt the Body of Christ.

If we HAD to... stranded on an island for instance :D , do you think it would be possible for us to come together and have some form of shared faith? Can we even agree on the basics of the Christian faith?

I think we can... even if it is on the most basic principles, I'd like as many people as possible to contribute to show that we indeed do love our neighbor.

Principle #1 The books of Scripture firmly, faithfully, and without error teach that truth which God, for the sake of our salvation, wished to see confided to the Sacred Scriptures.

Can most of us at least agree on that?

Forgive me, because I do not want to be accused of "hijacking" a thread - but doesn't your OP suggest that currently there is not a 'shared faith'?

Agreeing on principles is a surface level issue - but that is not the root issue or root problem.

What is the nature of unity? Is it possible to be unified and at the same time have disagreements?

It is man who has deemed what is essential and what is "not" essential - yet no where in Scripture does it say "You have to believe this", but if you do not believe "x" that is okay - because that really isn't essential.

Please understand that I seek not division among the brethren, but rather pure understanding. Understand that some wounds run very very deep in our shared history. While we might not have been active participants in the wounding, that doesn't mean the scare and the effects are not real.

We are called to a ministry of reconciliation - and that should be our goal. At the same time not one of us are perfect - not one of us can claim perfection and speaking Truth at all times, correctly 100 percent of the time. I am sorry, but there is no "gift of infaliability".

Have I used offensive language - yes I can admit that I have used terms like Romanist, Papists, the Roman Church etc. Was I "right" in doing so - in my mind I was, but not in God's. In the same vein, does God appreciate a son or daughter being called "separated" or not in "full communion". I do not believe so.

Is it our place to decide who is and who is not a Brother or Sister IN CHRIST? The key words there are IN CHRIST. We have a responsibility to teach Christ, preach Christ crucified - if someone else claims that they have received and are living out the Christian faith - who am I to say that they have not received Christ? I accept them as a full brother or sister IN CHRIST.

Do I have the responsibility to guide them and correct them in their actions - of course. That is what being a family is all about. But if one of my two sons or daughter does something wrong, that does not mean they are any less a part of the family. They do not somehow become "separated" from the family.

This goes for any denomination - RCC or AoG or Mennonite, or whateever.

On a personal level, what pains me is to hear and read and feel LESS of a family member on the basis that I do not "agree" with other doctrines. All that we can do is search our own motives, our own words, our own typings and see if we treat each other in a Christian manner, regardless of how the have treated us.

 

[Drew]

Principle #3 No one of us can "merit/earn" salvation, each of us are saved by the grace of God through the power of Christ's death on the Cross.

Yes, but.........

The protestant reformation tradition has ignored Romans 2. In verses 6-13, Paul clearly states that eternal life will be granted based on the "good works" that one manifests in one's life. For example:

God "will give to each person according to what he has done." 7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

And then he restates the same thing in different words two more times.

The only way to deny that "good works" do not count to justification and salvation from ultimate loss to engage in any of a number of strategies that really end up saying that Paul meant something other than what he actually wrote.

I'll take Paul at his word - To those who persist in doing good, He will give eternal life.

I have been careful in this other posts to be clear - the "good works" we are justified by are not the good works of one who tries to earn his salvation. They are the good works that the Spirit, given to us on the basis of faith alone, manifests in our lives.

So I agree with the principle, but the complete scriptural picture is one where one of the results of the grace is the good works by which we will be justified.

And in respect to Ephesians 2: an analysis of the context clearly shows that Paul is denying justification by the works of Torah, not "good works" in general. Big difference.

 

[RadicalReformer]

Drew - Romans 1:16-17

One cannot "do good" apart from faith in the first place. What you are suggesting is that someone who has "no faith" put does good, will be rewarded with eternal life. Sorry, but that is not based on biblical support.

 

[Drew]

What you are suggesting is that someone who has "no faith" put does good, will be rewarded with eternal life. Sorry, but that is not based on biblical support.

I never said this at all. My post made it quite clear that I do not hold the position that you ascribe to me in your post:

I have been careful in this other posts to be clear - the "good works" we are justified by are not the good works of one who tries to earn his salvation. They are the good works that the Spirit, given to us on the basis of faith alone, manifests in our lives.

 

[RadicalReformer]

What you are suggesting is that someone who has "no faith" put does good, will be rewarded with eternal life. Sorry, but that is not based on biblical support.

I never said this at all. My post made it quite clear that I do not hold the position that you ascribe to me in your post:

I have been careful in this other posts to be clear - the "good works" we are justified by are not the good works of one who tries to earn his salvation. They are the good works that the Spirit, given to us on the basis of faith alone, manifests in our lives.

Then to be honest Drew, I have no idea what it is you are trying to communicate in regards to Romans 2.

 

[Drew]

Then to be honest Drew, I have no idea what it is you are trying to communicate in regards to Romans 2.

I am claiming that in Romans 2, Paul asserts that eternal life will be granted based on the good works that are made manifest in the believer's life by the action of the Holy Spirit. The reformed tradition has no idea what to do with Romans 2 and has invented a number of unworkable hypotheses that all really amount to a denial of what Paul clearly states.

Is Paul being inconistent, claiming justification by good works here and denying justification by works in such texts as Eph 2:8-10?

No he is not. In the Ephesians text, as elsewhere, Paul denies justification by doing the works of the Torah, and is not even talking about "good works" in the general sense.

But what about justification by faith alone?

This only seems inconsistent because we do not grasp that Paul describes justification in a number of different tenses. In the present, by faith and faith alone, the Christian is given the Holy Spirit. The Spirit ensures that the believer performs the good works that will justify him/her at the future Romans 2 judgement.

We do not need sweep Romans 2 under the rug. We merely need to let Paul tell us what he believes, not come to the text with a pre-defined over-simplified model of justification and then puzzle about what Paul saying in Romans 2.

 

[RadicalReformer]

Then to be honest Drew, I have no idea what it is you are trying to communicate in regards to Romans 2.

I am claiming that in Romans 2, Paul asserts that eternal life will be granted based on the good works that are made manifest in the believer's life by the action of the Holy Spirit. The reformed tradition has no idea what to do with Romans 2 and has invented a number of unworkable hypotheses that all really amount to a denial of what Paul clearly states.

Is Paul being inconistent, claiming justification by good works here and denying justification by works in such texts as Eph 2:8-10?

No he is not. In the Ephesians text, as elsewhere, Paul denies justification by doing the works of the Torah, and is not even talking about "good works" in the general sense.

But what about justification by faith alone?

This only seems inconsistent because we do not grasp that Paul describes justification in a number of different tenses. In the present, by faith and faith alone, the Christian is given the Holy Spirit. The Spirit ensures that the believer performs the good works that will justify him/her at the future Romans 2 judgement.

We do not need sweep Romans 2 under the rug. We merely need to let Paul tell us what he believes, not come to the text with a pre-defined over-simplified model of justification and then puzzle about what Paul saying in Romans 2.

So, in other words what you are saying is that salvation is works based, but because we have the Holy Spirit we are in a sense guaranteed to do the "good works" that are required.

 

[handy]

I see what you are saying Drew, and to a certain extent I agree with it. However, we must harmonize all of what is known. And, we do know that Paul also clearly states that we are saved by grace, through faith, not as a result of works. I don't think that we can or should separate faith and works, but we need a clear understanding of their relationship. We are saved, not because we merit salvation due to our works. However, to what purpose are we saved? To the purpose of doing those works which Christ prepared for us to do.

When we think of our salvation, God gives us the gifts, new life in Christ. But, that new life has fundamental characteristics. One of the characteristics is that we will be doing those good works, works that bear good fruit. Without it, then we are not living out what we were saved for. There is something fundamentally wrong then.

But, this is still not to say that we 'earn' our salvation via the works. There are no amount of works that is going to merit God's setting aside the issue of our sin and let us into eternal holiness. We must, must, seek God's saving grace, the grace that washes away the stain of sin, and the Spirit who then sets us on the life of the works that Christ prepared for us. It is those works that I believe that Paul is referencing in Romans 2. Keep in mind, Romans 2:9 states that there will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil. And the kicker is, every man does evil. God's grace is what deals with the evil. Our good works are only fruitful to eternal life, if and when the evil is dealt with.

 

[Scott1]

Ok folks... before this thread goes to far off track... let's get back to unity.

If you'd like to finish your debate, feel free to start another thread.

What I would like now is for someone other than myself to come up with what they believe is a general principle of the Christian faith.

Come on now.... I'm praying for you! :-D

 

[handy]

Here's one:

Principle#4: One is a member of the family of God based upon one's salvation by God rather than one's affiliation with any particular church.

 

[Veritas]

Yes... I know Principle 4 to be true..

 

[stovebolts]

Here's one:

Principle#4: One is a member of the family of God based upon one's salvation by God rather than one's affiliation with any particular church.

I agree Dora. However, how does one define church? I believe this is where we start to become seperated.

Philippians 2:1-8 should be our starting point, keeping in mind Romans 14, especially vs. 19.

 

[Drew]

I see what you are saying Drew, and to a certain extent I agree with it. However, we must harmonize all of what is known. And, we do know that Paul also clearly states that we are saved by grace, through faith, not as a result of works.

To be direct, I politely suggest that you (and many others) are mistaken when you think Paul means "good works" in general when he says we are saved by faith and not by works. Instead, he is denying justification by doing the works of the Torah - the Jewish national charter. This became clear to me once I allowed myself to consider this possibility. The explanation that he is talking about the ethnic specificities of the Torah, and not good works in the more general sensem, provides a far better explanation when the local and wider context is considered. Perhaps I will start a thread on the subject of what Paul really was talking about when he denied justification by "works".

 

[Drew]

Here's one:

Principle#4: One is a member of the family of God based upon one's salvation by God rather than one's affiliation with any particular church.

I agree wholeheartedly. One of Paul's central arguments is that all of the usual things that divide us - race, wealth, nationality - are not to be markers for identifying the people of God. What is the marker? There is only one (in the present anyway) - faith in Jesus Christ.

 

[Drew]

I'll take a shot:

Principle 5: "Jesus has been enthroned as Lord of this present world and the people of God are callled to enact the Kingdom values He taught us in all structures of human society"

In other words, the Christian is not called to run his private life according to one set of principles (Kingdom of God principles from the Scriptures) and yet support the idea of public life - government - run according to a different set of secular principles.