The Value of Evangelism in Reformed Theology

[Christ_empowered]

Jesus says to go forth and make disciples, spread The Good News. evangelism within Reformed circles could then be seen as simple obedience. even if 99/100 fail to yield a genuine conversion, the 1 who does -- the lost sheep who hears The Lord's voice and responds, etc. -- will be worthwhile, and also...

obeying The Lord is a Good endeavor, all by itself.

 

[GodsGrace]

He had to take responsibility. As God created both the world and Eve for him and of him.
Both guilty tho.
Would he eat the fruit if not Eve did it first?

Not too serious about this. But interesting still. Like to understand things the right way too..

The story of Adam and Eve, the creation and the fall, are pivotal to understanding sin and the human being.

Eve would have been responsible for her own sin, but it would not have passed down to the rest of humanity if Adam had restrained from eating the forbidden fruit. It's when HE took the bite that man fell .

This is what Paul teaches and all churches agree on this.

And I agree with you, it's good to ask and think about interesting questions.

 

[Link1983]

The story of Adam and Eve, the creation and the fall, are pivotal to understanding sin and the human being.

Eve would have been responsible for her own sin, but it would not have passed down to the rest of humanity if Adam had restrained from eating the forbidden fruit. It's when HE took the bite that man fell .

This is what Paul teaches and all churches agree on this.

And I agree with you, it's good to ask and think about interesting questions.

Yes. I would definitely say that Genesis is essential to understand God, life, creation, and so on..
To understand our future we need to understand our origin.

To get answers we must first ask. And ask the right ones. Although as the saying goes: there are no stupid questions, just stupid answers. Lol.

 

[Link1983]

God does not change. The value of evangelism is equally important now as it ever was. If not more.
The gospel is the same.
Go out and spread the Word! And help the poor and needy.

 

[Hospes]

Key Verse:

• For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

This is what is required to be saved by faith; to be born again, regenerated; confessing Jesus as Lord.

So that I can see this verse from your perspective, would you put into your own words what is happening, by man and/or by God in "with the mouth confession is made unto salvation"?

Now as a new creation in Christ we are prepared to live in accordance to the will of our Lord, which involves receiving the Holy Spirit, and beginning the process of becoming sons of God, so that at the end of our faith we will receive the salvation of our soul.

I agree as a new creation we are prepared, equipped, and motivated to live according to the will of our Lord, "for it is God who is at work in you to will and do His good pleasure."

Am I understanding you believe adoption as a child of God is a progressive process and not an event?

Finally, when you write "at the end of our faith we will receive the salvation of our soul" are you asserting salvation is a future event for the born again person? BTW, I believe salvation is an event AND a process. We are told to work out our salvation. And a number of passages mention being saved". (1 Corinthians 1:18, 1 Corinthians 15:2, 2 Corinthians 2:15)

Sorry to pepper you with questions. I hope you trust that I am not just trying to "set you up" for my comeback argument. I am not. In reality, I am putting my see-it-from-JLB's-perspective hat and seeing where it leads.

 

[PeterJens]

I have just begun reading the book Deconstructing Calvinism, by Hudson Smelley, and in the prologue found this statement:

Calvinism completely compasses God's redemptive plan and teaches that God saves a small percentage of humanity based on His elective determination before creation and passes over the rest. Since God's redemptive plan excludes most people, there is no basis for us to tell a lost person that God loves them, that Jesus died for them, that they should believe in Christ for salvation, or that there is hope beyond the grave. If the lost person is not elect, we would be misleading them if we said any of those things. Indeed, it is difficult to see how we could make any honest gospel presentation knowing most people are by God's purposes not savable. Not only that, since salvation hangs on God's elective determination before creation and not on a present decision for Christ, we must make this TULIP reality personal. We must come to grips with the fact that many of those we know, and perhaps some of those closest to us, have no possibility of being reconciled to God because they are not elect.

What caught my eye is the idea that "there is no basis for us to tell a lost person that God loves them, that Jesus died for them, that they should believe in Christ for salvation, or that there is hope beyond the grave. If the lost person is not elect, we would be misleading them if we said any of those things."

I had always thought the Calvinistic evangelism was like searching for the proverbial needle in a haystack,, the rare Elect person in the mass of reprobates, but had never thought of the effect of the presentation of the gospel to those who would never be able to experience it. Smelley terms it "misleading" them to think that they might be savable, when in fact, there isn't a sliver of hope that this would happen.

What are your thoughts, either pro or con to Smelley's thought?


Doug

I like this proposition. It is 100% correct there is no point sharing the gospel with the none elect because they will never be saved. But there is an assumption here
1. We know who the elect are
2. Being lost is not about hearing the gospel and rejecting it, it is just about being lost.

We are commanded by Jesus to make disciples. And the Lord is a seed sower of His word to everyone, and it is the fruit that brings about judgement. It is like saying a farmer should only plant seed where it will grow, when you only know where it will grow until after it is sown. And the power of love is that it is open and calls all with the same message but it is the elect who listen and follow. And the elect show themselves by hearing, listening and following. But if we do not share or sow, the elect will never hear, never respond and never be saved.

Gods example is Israel, a nation saved from Egypt yet many rebelled and died in the desert. God did not choose the elect out of Israel but saved them all and gave the opportunity for some to respond. Those who rebelled were judged and rejected, but all were given the opportunity.

This is how Gods people work, sharing His light and love to a lost world, giving opportunity to the lost to find Him, knowing many will not, but the elect will. God bless you

 

[Hospes]

Calvinism completely compasses God's redemptive plan and teaches that God saves a small percentage of humanity based on His elective determination before creation and passes over the rest.

Does the non-Calvinist believe that a large percentage will be saved? If so, based on what? Seems Jesus indicated few would enter when He said "For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few. (Matthew 7:14)

Since God's redemptive plan excludes most people, there is no basis for us to tell a lost person that God loves them, that Jesus died for them, that they should believe in Christ for salvation, or that there is hope beyond the grave.

I see no logical link between "Since God's redemptive plan excludes most people..." and the rest of the sentence. How does the number of people potentially being saved have any bearing on whether we share the Gospel? Maybe someone can explain the connection?

If one reads the presentations of the Gospel in Acts, how many include telling people Jesus loves them and died for each of them individually? How many tell of sin and the wrath/judgment to come?

Seems to me only those born-again have hope beyond the grave. For a non-believer, there is no hope, but there is wrath. So is Smelley saying we should tell people there is hope beyond the grave apart from being born again? I doubt it. But how does he offer any more hope than the Calvinist who calls for a person to believe and escape the coming wrath?

Indeed, it is difficult to see how we could make any honest gospel presentation knowing most people are by God's purposes not savable.

Again, does the number of people potentially saved by the Gospel have a bearing on presenting the Gospel?

Not only that, since salvation hangs on God's elective determination before creation and not on a present decision for Christ, we must make this TULIP reality personal. We must come to grips with the fact that many of those we know, and perhaps some of those closest to us, have no possibility of being reconciled to God because they are not elect.

I find comfort that I can ask God for a person's salvation knowing that God is able to cause it. I see nothing attractive in the idea of asking God for a person's salvation while knowing He has chosen to not cause it, but rather has delegated the decision to the person. If God cannot cause salvation, then what exactly is the request when praying for a person's salvation? I can only think the request must be for God to exert as much influence as within the bounds of the perosn's will, but not enough to actually cause the person to willfully choose His salvation.

 

[JLB]

Could it be that regeneration, belief, repentance, and obedience to the Gospel be simultaneous events?

I believe regeneration is the result of believing and therefore obeying the Gospel.


JLB

 

[JLB]

Regardless of sequential vs. simultaneous, I think they are all determinatively accomplished by God apart from any work done by the person saved..

The work of obedience (obedience of faith) directly results in justification (being declared right with God) and therefore salvation: regeneration.

Apart from faith, (the obedience of faith) there is no justification, and therefore no regeneration.


Faith alone, apart from obedience (the obedience of faith) is incomplete, just as a body without a spirit is incomplete and therefore is dead, and unable to function.


You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.
Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way?
For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. James 2:24-26




JLB

 

[JLB]

So that I can see this verse from your perspective, would you put into your own words what is happening, by man and/or by God in "with the mouth confession is made unto salvation"?

Man hears the Gospel message.
Man receives faith.
Man believes, and confesses Jesus as Lord because the Spirit enables him (grace) and is therefore regenerated; born again.



JLB

 

[JLB]

Am I understanding you believe adoption as a child of God is a progressive process and not an event?

But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: John 1:12

• to them gave he power to become the sons of God

The short answer is yes, although like salvation, there is what I call “initial salvation” or being saved by faith, then there is receiving the salvation of our soul.


We receive the Spirit of adoption, yet we are still waiting for the final adoption, the redemption of the body at the resurrection.


Not only that, but we also who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body. For we were saved in this hope, but hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one still hope for what he sees? But if we hope for what we do not see, we eagerly wait for it with perseverance.
Romans 8:23-25



This is where we actually become sons of God in reality.



JLB

 

[tdidymas]

Yes. I would definitely say that Genesis is essential to understand God, life, creation, and so on..
To understand our future we need to understand our origin.

To get answers we must first ask. And ask the right ones. Although as the saying goes: there are no stupid questions, just stupid answers. Lol.

Questions aren't stupid if they are sincere and open minded.
But there are stupid questions:
1. The one asked by a fool.
2. The one asked in insincerity.
3. The one asked with the assumption of an untrue answer.
These are a few.
TD

 

[stovebolts]

That is a fine scripture!
Thinking about Eve being deceived by satan and adam deceived or fullfil choosing tho...
Was Adam's sin greater than Eve? ?
Or are they Equal?
Just a thought.. this question doesn't necessarily matter..

First, Adam wasn't deceived. Adam willfully disobeyed. As a result, it held greater consequence.

Have you ever done something thinking it was ok only to later find out it was harmful? We can easily be deceived by our own reasoning and desires and God will address those sins differently than those sins willingly being committed.

One thing to consider is this, the Holy Spirit convicts the world of it's sin in order that the world has an opportunity to repent. And by repent I mean stop doing what is wrong and start doing what is right. Repentance isn't just about feeling sorry for what you've done. Judas was sorry.... God's not looking to lay guilt on us, he's about releasing us from that guilt. Hence, repentance.

The Apostle Paul is a great example of this. Read 1 Timothy and you'll find he persecuted Christians thinking he was serving the Lord. Paul thought he was doing the right thing. But when he encountered the Lord, his eyes were opened.

Paul had a choice. He could have continued in his sin, knowing it was sin or he could repent.

God hardens the unrepentant sinner. That is, those who know they are doing wrong but continue to blatentky rebel without a concience and willfully and in defiance continue in sin after knowing the truth. For them, death is there reward.

 

[Link1983]

First, Adam wasn't deceived. Adam willfully disobeyed. As a result, it held greater consequence.

Have you ever done something thinking it was ok only to later find out it was harmful? We can easily be deceived by our own reasoning and desires and God will address those sins differently than those sins willingly being committed.

One thing to consider is this, the Holy Spirit convicts the world of it's sin in order that the world has an opportunity to repent. And by repent I mean stop doing what is wrong and start doing what is right. Repentance isn't just about feeling sorry for what you've done. Judas was sorry.... God's not looking to lay guilt on us, he's about releasing us from that guilt. Hence, repentance.

The Apostle Paul is a great example of this. Read 1 Timothy and you'll find he persecuted Christians thinking he was serving the Lord. Paul thought he was doing the right thing. But when he encountered the Lord, his eyes were opened.

Paul had a choice. He could have continued in his sin, knowing it was sin or he could repent.

God hardens the unrepentant sinner. That is, those who know they are doing wrong but continue to blatentky rebel without a concience and willfully and in defiance continue in sin after knowing the truth. For them, death is there reward.

You have in my opinion a very clear understanding of the Word Stovebolts. That is quite rare i these days. Even in Christian communities.
But God gets the glory for that.

I heard a man of God say: Repentance is really a change of mind.

I remember one thing Jesus said: "My people are destroyed due to the lack of knowledge" (of God's Word)

One of the most amazing scriptures in the Bible is this: John 8: 31

God bless!

 

[Link1983]

The work of obedience (obedience of faith) directly results in justification (being declared right with God) and therefore salvation: regeneration.

Apart from faith, (the obedience of faith) there is no justification, and therefore no regeneration.


Faith alone, apart from obedience (the obedience of faith) is incomplete, just as a body without a spirit is incomplete and therefore is dead, and unable to function.


You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.
Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way?
For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. James 2:24-26




JLB

Not to be picky;) but isn't faith and confession an act in it self?
Or works if you will..

But i agree. Faith without works is dead..

Shalom

 

[Link1983]

Questions aren't stupid if they are sincere and open minded.
But there are stupid questions:
1. The one asked by a fool.
2. The one asked in insincerity.
3. The one asked with the assumption of an untrue answer.
These are a few.
TD

Then it is the intentions of the one asking that is stupid. The person.. not necessarily the question he asked..
Or?....

 

[TibiasDad]

Hi Doug,

I agree with Smelley 100%.
Searching for the proverbial needle in a haystack has no place in Calvinistic soteriology. There is no NEED to search for the needle because the person God determines to save will be saved whether or not he is found in the "haystack".

It is absolutely misleading to preach to a crowd of persons if one believes God does the electing with no participation from the individual.
What would the person who is witnessing/preaching say? The only HONEST wording would be that the person cannot do too much to be saved....because God will so determine this.

Doesn't sound like much of what the N.T. teaches, does it?

Hi wondering, thanks for chiming in on my humble OP. I agree with you completely. By divorcing the love of God from the equation, Calvinists are forced to limit the gospel message to "God will save all who believe", which leaves so much of the dynamic, the power, out of the message. The gospel sounds more like a toothpaste commercial " Whiter teeth after one tube", than the gospel.


Doug

 

[TibiasDad]

I like this proposition. It is 100% correct there is no point sharing the gospel with the none elect because they will never be saved. But there is an assumption here
1. We know who the elect are
2. Being lost is not about hearing the gospel and rejecting it, it is just about being lost.

We are commanded by Jesus to make disciples. And the Lord is a seed sower of His word to everyone, and it is the fruit that brings about judgement. It is like saying a farmer should only plant seed where it will grow, when you only know where it will grow until after it is sown. And the power of love is that it is open and calls all with the same message but it is the elect who listen and follow. And the elect show themselves by hearing, listening and following. But if we do not share or sow, the elect will never hear, never respond and never be saved.

Gods example is Israel, a nation saved from Egypt yet many rebelled and died in the desert. God did not choose the elect out of Israel but saved them all and gave the opportunity for some to respond. Those who rebelled were judged and rejected, but all were given the opportunity.

This is how Gods people work, sharing His light and love to a lost world, giving opportunity to the lost to find Him, knowing many will not, but the elect will. God bless you

Hi PeterJens, thanks for stopping by.

I would disagree with you, on several points! First, there is no assumption that "we know who the Elect are"; the point is a) that because there is a group, according to the Calvinistic perspective, of Elect that are already chosen that there is a a substantially larger group of non-elect to which the gospel has no meaning and offers no hope. Yes, not knowing who the Elect and non-elect are means than we have to preach indiscriminately, in this there is no difference between Calvinists and non-Calvinists, but there is a huge difference in how we preach indiscriminately.

Calvinism cannot truly and unabashedly state that God will save you to any particular person, because the truth is not a " God will save you if you believe", but a "God will save you if God has preordained and chosen you to believe, and thus will give you belief so that you will irresistibly and irrevocably believe", gospel, which if preached authentically, not be good news to the majority of hearers.

Secondly, "the power of love is that it is open and calls all" is tongue in cheek rhetoric that denies the very foundation of Reformed thought, because God doesn't actually want all to be saved, nor does he love all. That there is a predetermanitive election of two classes of people is sufficient evidence that he does not truly call all, is not really open to all, nor does he love all enough to save them!

Thirdly, meticulous predetermination precludes any logical need to preach the gospel. Since all things, including the means of any particular one hearing the gospel, is preordained, it could happen in no other way. The fix is in, and all else is just details.


Doug

 

[Moseme]

new to the conversation but the problem with getting rid of free moral agency and replacing it with predestination is that it also gets rid of our personal responsibility.

Say God has predestined me to be a sinner and I sin by rounding up as many eastern European Jews and shoving them into camps and slaughtering them like animals. And say I never repent because that is just what I was predestined to do. How could I then be held responsible for anything that God predestined for me to do before I was ever born. How could any judgment against me be moral when I had no choice?

 

[JLB]

Not to be picky;) but isn't faith and confession an act in it self?
Or works if you will..

But i agree. Faith without works is dead..

Shalom

Confessing Jesus as Lord is our confession of faith that initiates salvation. It is the obedience of faith required of salvation.



For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Romans 10:10

• with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

JLB