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The war in heaven: Rev 12

Except that the Christian OT is the Bible in Judaism, originally written in Hebrew. We have the English translations (which differ) minus the Hebrew idioms. Christianity adds to the OT to support views that are not initially represented. Just saying...
 
Vanguard said:
Except that the Christian OT is the Bible in Judaism, originally written in Hebrew. We have the English translations (which differ) minus the Hebrew idioms. Christianity adds to the OT to support views that are not initially represented. Just saying...
Click to expand...
I'm open to proof that the English translations differ, and that the Hebrew idioms are missing. Do you have any?
 
Yes.

Revelation 12:9

KJV And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

NASB And the great dragon was thrown down, the serpent of old who is called the devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him.

HCSB So the great dragon was thrown out—the ancient serpent, who is called the Devil and Satan, the one who deceives the whole world. He was thrown to earth, and his angels with him.

YLT and the great dragon was cast forth -- the old serpent, who is called `Devil,' and `the Adversary,' who is leading astray the whole world -- he was cast forth to the earth, and his messengers were cast forth with him.



In the KJV the dragon was cast INTO the earth, as the 1611 KJV tries to imply hell, which is a dominant theme, even though it mistranslates sheol and hades as hell throughout the Bible. In the other 3 he is simply cast down to the earth, with no implication of hell.

In the NASB the word devil is not capitalized, and does not give usage to a proper noun, i.e. a singular being, but then references the KJV interpretation of Satan.

In the HCSB the word Devil is capitalized, and makes it inclusive to mean Satan as one in the same, which differs from the NASB interpretation of devil.

In the YLT there is no mention of the name Satan, nor are the angels referred to as angels, but rather messengers.

Two things...

The variations in interpretation come from the different texts used to translate from, as words get shuffled around, added to or omitted.

The Hebrew idioms revolving around the use of Ha-SaTan are evident, even though all 4 refer to him as either Satan or the Adversary. Words can have multiple meanings, and it is why the YLT left out the proper noun Satan, as it was not sure of the Hebrew to Greek references.

Ultimately they are all saying the same thing, but the differences are there. Just in that one verse we have these differing interpretations:

1. Into the earth vs. to the earth, with an implication of into hell vs. among humans
2. Angels vs. messengers, and not necessarily the same thing
3. Devil as a proper name vs. devil as a non-proper name, as there are multiple devils [implied demons]
4. Satan as an individually named being vs. an Adversary without the use of the name

Thus the problem when translating from an archaic language to a modern one. Differences are minute, but they do exist. A simple word can change the context of an entire verse.
 
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Vanguard said:
Yes.

Revelation 12:9

KJV And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

NASB And the great dragon was thrown down, the serpent of old who is called the devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him.

HCSB So the great dragon was thrown out—the ancient serpent, who is called the Devil and Satan, the one who deceives the whole world. He was thrown to earth, and his angels with him.

YLT and the great dragon was cast forth -- the old serpent, who is called `Devil,' and `the Adversary,' who is leading astray the whole world -- he was cast forth to the earth, and his messengers were cast forth with him.

In the KJV the dragon was cast INTO the earth, as the 1611 KJV tries to imply hell, which is a dominant theme, even though it mistranslates sheol and hades as hell throughout the Bible. In the other 3 he is simply cast down to the earth, with no implication of hell.

In the NASB the word devil is not capitalized, and does not give usage to a proper noun, i.e. a singular being, but then references the KJV interpretation of Satan.

In the HCSB the word Devil is capitalized, and makes it inclusive to mean Satan as one in the same, which differs from the NASB interpretation of devil.

In the YLT there is no mention of the name Satan, nor are the angels referred to as angels, but rather messengers.

Two things...

The variations in interpretation come from the different texts used to translate from, as words get shuffled around, added to or omitted.

The Hebrew idioms revolving around the use of Ha-SaTan are evident, even though all 4 refer to him as either Satan or the Adversary. Words can have multiple meanings, and it is why the YLT left out the proper noun Satan, as it was not sure of the Hebrew to Greek references.

Ultimately they are all saying the same thing, but the differences are there. Just in that one verse we have these differing interpretations:

1. Into the earth vs. to the earth, with an implication of into hell vs. among humans
2. Angels vs. messengers, and not necessarily the same thing
3. Devil as a proper name vs. devil as a non-proper name, as there are multiple devils [implied demons]
4. Satan as an individually named being vs. an Adversary without the use of the name

Thus the problem when translating from an archaic language to a modern one. Differences are minute, but they do exist. A simple word can change the context of an entire verse.
Click to expand...

Hi Vanguard and good morning. You bring forth ideas foreign to many, though I find interesting as to being truth in part if I understand what you're saying correctly.

I would like to ask concerning Revelation 12:9 the time frame context: i.e., past, present, or future?

You say: "In the YLT there is no mention of the name Satan, nor are the angels referred to as angels, but rather messengers."

I agree the word "Angel" is the word messenger, but it can be interpreted as a created angel or human messenger and it will depend upon the interpreter's knowledge of who it is. E.g., Revelation 1:1. "The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by His angel unto his servant John:"

Just who is "Jesus' angel", or where else is he mentioned to allow us to know? Thanks.
++++++++++++++++++++
Strong's Concordance - 32 aggelov aggelos ang'-el-os

from aggello [probably derived from 71, cf 34] (to bring tidings); TDNT-1:74,12; n m

AV-angel 179, messenger 7; 186

1) a messenger, envoy, one who is sent, an angel, a messenger from God
 
Greetings, and yes you are understanding what I was getting at. As to the time frame being past, present or future, that depends on the interpreter and whether he/she is a preterist, historicist, idealist or futurist. Even at the highest levels of scholarly PhD's do they debate the exact same things that we do, and they are far more learned than we are. As far as "His angel" is concerned the only thing I can safely summize from the use of that word is the term "messenger." I'll see what I can find out and get back to you.
 
Hi again and I'm not attempting to get you searching for something taking a great deal of time if you don't presently have a pat answer, and so I will just state what I believe.

Context of Revelation 12:9 must be consistent with Revelation 4:1. I do not go with Preterism and so it must yet be future but when? John was caught forward in spirit to the Lord's Day (The end of this present age). In Revelation 4:1 he is caught up to heaven to see things which shall be hereafter from the time Jesus sits on His own throne in Revelation 4:2, and thus Satan is cast to earth after that.

As to Jesus' angel, John is found to be bowing to him in heaven in Revelation 19:10 and Revelation 22:9 below and is told by him that he is fellowservant and one of our brethren; a human messenger)

Revelation 19:10 "And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy."

And also:

Revelation 22:9 Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.
 
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