The Way. Scripture defines scripture.

[Humblepie]

I'm not looking for a debate. I'm just fascinated how the OT directly relates to the NT.

The whole word of God is Truth. Including His Torah (instruction)

The word "Torah" in Hebrew is derived from the root ירה, which in the hif'il conjugation means 'to guide' or 'to teach'. The meaning of the word is therefore "teaching", "doctrine", or "instruction"

By studying the OT you bring understanding to what the NT Actually teaches as truth. It would be easy to distort the true meaning in the NT if one is ignorant of the OT.

many like to twist Paul's words as stated in
2 Peter 3:16-17
16 He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.

17 Therefore, dear friends, since you have been forewarned, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of the lawless and fall from your secure position.

The lawless are those that don't obey the law. At least that what my Bible claims is truth.



1 John 3:4
4 Everyone who sins breaks the law; in fact, sin is lawlessness.


John 14:16
6 Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
The way.

Deut 11:26
26 See, I am setting before you today a blessing and a curse— 27 the blessing if you obey the commands of the Lord your God that I am giving you today; 28 the curse if you disobey the commands of the Lord your God and turn from the way that I command you today by following other gods, which you have not known.

The Truth.

Psalms 119:142
142. Your righteousness is everlasting
and your Law is true.

The Life.

Deut 32:46-47

46 he said to them, “Take to heart all the words I have solemnly declared to you this day, so that you may command your children to obey carefully all the words of this law. 47 They are not just idle words for you—they are your life.



In Brotherhood.




 

 

[Josef]

Hey All,

"many like to twist Paul's words as stated in
2 Peter 3:16-17" Quote from Humblepie

Paul did not write 2 Peter 3:16-17. Is that a typo? Or is that a Freudian slip?

Also, what happened to the rest of Deut. 32:47? Why are you not teaching the whole verse?

There things raise questions.

Always proofread your studies. Once I see an error, I fixate on that error. I tend not to get anything out of the teaching because I am distracted. I start looking for other errors. Now that's on me. But I know I am not alone in this. Keep trying and you will get better.

Keep walking everybody.
May God bless,
Taz

 

[Humblepie]

Paul did not write 2 Peter 3:16-17. Is that a typo? Or is that a Freudian slip?

many like to twist Paul's words as stated in Peter.

I never said Paul wrote Peter.
Some even say Peter didn't write Peter but that's another topic which I don't believe.

So please clarify the error.

 

[Humblepie]

"many like to twist Paul's words as stated in
2 Peter 3:16-17"

Peter is telling us Paul is hard to understand and many people like to twist it into a false doctrine of him teaching against the law.

 

[Josef]

Hey All,
Humblepie, you are right. I made a mistake. I read it incorrectly. I apologize for that.

Keep walking everybody.
May God bless,
Taz

 

[JLB]

The lawless are those that don't obey the law. At least that what my Bible claims is truth.

Which law?

The law of Moses or the law of Christ?

What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was appointed through angels by the hand of a mediator.
Galatians 3:19

• It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come

Do you believe the Seed has come?

What do you believe the law of Moses was added to?




JLB

 

[Humblepie]

Do you believe the Seed has come

Even if that's what Paul meant in Galatians, which it isn't, are you putting man's teachings above Jesus teachings?




Jesus replied, “And why do you break the command of God for the sake of your tradition? 4 For God said, ‘Honor your father and mother’[a] and ‘Anyone who curses their father or mother is to be put to death.’[b] 5 But you say that if anyone declares that what might have been used to help their father or mother is ‘devoted to God,’ 6 they are not to ‘honor their father or mother’ with it. Thus you nullify the word of God for the sake of your tradition. 7 You hypocrites! Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you:

8 “‘These people honor me with their lips,
but their hearts are far from me.
9 They worship me in vain;
their teachings are merely human rules




Do you believe heaven and earth has passed away?

Matt 5:18

18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.


Galatians is a letter, it should be read as a letter. In context.

So what is the context?

Paul tells us.

6 I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you to live in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— 7 which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under God’s curse! 9 As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let them be under God’s curse!

10 Am I now trying to win the approval of human beings, or of God? Or am I trying to please people? If I were still trying to please people, I would not be a servant of Christ.
11 I want you to know, brothers and sisters, that the gospel I preached is not of human origin. 12 I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it; rather, I received it by revelation from Jesus Christ.


The letter is against those that are teaching that you must obey the law first to be saved and that's not what Paul was teaching.




Galatians 3:21


21 Is the law, therefore, opposed to the promises of God? Absolutely not! For if a law had been given that could impart life, then righteousness would certainly have come by the law.


He is saying the law doesn't make one righteous, that only faith in christ makes one righteous, but the law is still there.

In other words, we follow the law because we are saved, not to justify us.


We follow it to be obediant to our fathers will because we are his children.

Romans 2:12
12 All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. 13 For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. 14 (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.) 16 This will take place on the day when God judges people’s secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.


If the unbelievers are judged apart from the law, why would you believe that the law is null and void.
Either it is or it isn't.

We as believers are not judged by the law because we have grace, but that doesn't mean we eliminate the law.
We establish the law.

Romans 3:31
31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

 

[JLB]

Even if that's what Paul meant in Galatians, which it isn't, are you putting man's teachings above Jesus teachings?

The only doctrine I follow is the doctrine of Christ.

The doctrine of Christ is what Paul, Peter, James, John and any writer of the New Testament taught.

What do you mean by saying... if that is what Paul meant?

Why would Paul, a former Pharisee of Pharisee's, an instructor in the law, mince words about the law of Moses?

What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was appointed through angels by the hand of a mediator. Galatians 3:19

This is exactly what Jesus taught.

KEY WORD: Until

Does until refer to something permanent or something temporary?



JLB

 

[Humblepie]

KEY WORD: Until

KEYWORD UNTIL

until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law

 

[JLB]

KEYWORD UNTIL

until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law

When you use actual scripture you will know the truth…

For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.
Matthew 5:18


Did Jesus fulfill the law?

 

[Humblepie]

Why would Paul, a former Pharisee of Pharisee's, an instructor in the law, mince words about the law of Moses?

He didn't mince words, you may not understand because you read the scripture with the teachings of men at the forefront,
Try reading it as if he is saying this.

The law will not justify you, it only condemns you.
The law can't save you, only Christ can save you. (Grace through faith)

Works of the law is nothing without salvation.

You are saved by grace first. You try your best to follow the commands because you are saved


Acts 21:24

24 Them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave their heads: and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but that thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law.

Your belief contradicts scripture here in acts 21





Acts 25:8

8 While he answered for himself, Neither against the law of the Jews, neither against the temple, nor yet against Caesar, have I offended any thing at all.

You contradict scripture here again in Acts 25.


Acts 28:17

17 And it came to pass, that after three days Paul called the chief of the Jews together: and when they were come together, he said unto them, Men and brethren, though I have committed nothing against the people, or customs of our fathers, yet was I delivered prisoner from Jerusalem into the hands of the Romans.

You belief contradicts scripture here in Acts 28



Psalm11918.org

HomeArticlesDid You Know...?Paul Never Stopped Keeping the Law
Paul Never Stopped Keeping the Law
Psalm11918.org
The Conversion on the Way to Damascus- CaravaggioAlthough some may claim otherwise, the apostle Paul never stopped keeping the Law of Moses [Hebrew: Torah] after he encountered the risen Messiah in Acts chapter 9.



Wait, what...?

Wasn't Paul "all things to all men" as he said in 1 Corinthians 9:19-23?



Yes, he was, but that does not mean that he followed the customs of the Gentiles and forsook the Law of Moses to do so.





Consider these passages from Scripture that speak of Paul:

Acts 21:19-24

After he had greeted them, he began to relate one by one the things which God had done among the Gentiles through his ministry. And when they heard it they began glorifying God; and they said to him, "You see, brother, how many thousands there are among the Jews of those who have believed, and they are all zealous for the Law; and they have been told about you, that you are teaching all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children nor to walk according to the customs. "What, then, is to be done? They will certainly hear that you have come. Therefore do this that we tell you. We have four men who are under a vow; take them and purify yourself along with them, and pay their expenses so that they may shave their heads; and all will know that there is nothing to the things which they have been told about you, but that you yourself also walk orderly, keeping the Law.



The leaders of the congregation in Jerusalem (including James and Peter) declared that Paul "walked orderly, keeping the Law."

For those who might suggest this was the Law of Christ, please note that the context refers to the false charges being leveled against Paul: that he was teaching Jews to forsake Moses (a common term for the Law), not to circumcise their children, nor to walk according to the customs. Disobedience to the customs are also part of the accusations against Paul. The leaders then instruct Paul to prove (by offering the sacrifices and ceremonial activities involved with completing a Nazirite vow) that he walks orderly, keeping the Law in order demonstrate the charges against him to be baseless and false.


Consider Acts 22...

"I am a Jew, born in Tarsus of Cilicia, but brought up in this city, educated under Gamaliel, strictly according to the law of our fathers, being zealous for God just as you all are today. (Acts 22:3)



Note that Paul doesn't say he was a Jew (past tense) but that he is a Jew (present tense). He also does not say that he was zealous for G-d but that he is (present tense) zealous for G-d. For Jews, this zealousness is expressed by their obedience to the commandments expressed in the Law of Moses.



Many false charges of this kind are brought against Paul. When he speaks before Festus in his own defense he declares:


"I have committed no offense either against the Law of the Jews or against the temple or against Caesar." (Acts 25:8)



At the end of his ministry, after Paul appeals to Caesar in his trial and is taken to Rome in chains, Paul speaks with the Jews of Rome:

After three days Paul called together those who were the leading men of the Jews, and when they came together, he began saying to them, " Brethren, though I had done nothing against our people or the customs of our fathers, yet I was delivered as a prisoner from Jerusalem into the hands of the Romans. (Acts 28:17)



This is the same Paul who wrote while in prison to the believers in Thessalonica:

So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught, whether by word of mouth or by letter from us. (2 Thessalonians 2:15)



If Paul had ever taught traditions that were contrary to the Torah/Law of Moses/the Law of the Jews, or the customs of the fathers then he would have been transgressing the Law and violating the customs of his fathers.

Paul's own words and the testimony of Scripture teach us that Paul never stopped keeping the Torah.

While Paul's obedience may come as a shock to some, we should recognize that there is no error in his actions.




1 Timothy 1
But we know that the Law is good, if one uses it lawfully, realizing the fact that law is not made for a righteous person, but for those who are lawless and rebellious, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers and immoral men and homosexuals and kidnappers and liars and perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound teaching, according to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, with which I have been entrusted.

 

[Humblepie]

Did Jesus fulfill the law?

Greek word for fulfill is pleroo.

Fully teach, Preach, live out, fulfill.
In this manner yes he did live the letter of the law and the spirit of the law. So yes he did fulfill the law, but he never made void the law, or abolished the law.






Matthew 3:15 “But Jesus answered and said to him permit it to be so now for thus it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness.”

So, if Matthew 5:17 means that Yeshua fulfilled the whole law of God so that we do not have to, does that mean that Yeshua also fulfill practicing all righteousness so that we no longer have to practice righteousness?


Of course not. And that's not what he meant in Matt 5:17 either.

 

[JLB]

He didn't mince words, you may not understand because you read the scripture with the teachings of men at the forefront,
Try reading it as if he is saying this.

The law will not justify you, it only condemns you.
The law can't save you, only Christ can save you. (Grace through faith)

Works of the law is nothing without salvation.

You are saved by grace first. You try your best to follow the commands because you are saved


Acts 21:24

24 Them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave their heads: and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but that thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law.

Your belief contradicts scripture here in acts 21





Acts 25:8

8 While he answered for himself, Neither against the law of the Jews, neither against the temple, nor yet against Caesar, have I offended any thing at all.

You contradict scripture here again in Acts 25.


Acts 28:17

17 And it came to pass, that after three days Paul called the chief of the Jews together: and when they were come together, he said unto them, Men and brethren, though I have committed nothing against the people, or customs of our fathers, yet was I delivered prisoner from Jerusalem into the hands of the Romans.

You belief contradicts scripture here in Acts 28



Psalm11918.org

HomeArticlesDid You Know...?Paul Never Stopped Keeping the Law
Paul Never Stopped Keeping the Law
Psalm11918.org
The Conversion on the Way to Damascus- CaravaggioAlthough some may claim otherwise, the apostle Paul never stopped keeping the Law of Moses [Hebrew: Torah] after he encountered the risen Messiah in Acts chapter 9.



Wait, what...?

Wasn't Paul "all things to all men" as he said in 1 Corinthians 9:19-23?



Yes, he was, but that does not mean that he followed the customs of the Gentiles and forsook the Law of Moses to do so.





Consider these passages from Scripture that speak of Paul:

Acts 21:19-24

After he had greeted them, he began to relate one by one the things which God had done among the Gentiles through his ministry. And when they heard it they began glorifying God; and they said to him, "You see, brother, how many thousands there are among the Jews of those who have believed, and they are all zealous for the Law; and they have been told about you, that you are teaching all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children nor to walk according to the customs. "What, then, is to be done? They will certainly hear that you have come. Therefore do this that we tell you. We have four men who are under a vow; take them and purify yourself along with them, and pay their expenses so that they may shave their heads; and all will know that there is nothing to the things which they have been told about you, but that you yourself also walk orderly, keeping the Law.



The leaders of the congregation in Jerusalem (including James and Peter) declared that Paul "walked orderly, keeping the Law."

For those who might suggest this was the Law of Christ, please note that the context refers to the false charges being leveled against Paul: that he was teaching Jews to forsake Moses (a common term for the Law), not to circumcise their children, nor to walk according to the customs. Disobedience to the customs are also part of the accusations against Paul. The leaders then instruct Paul to prove (by offering the sacrifices and ceremonial activities involved with completing a Nazirite vow) that he walks orderly, keeping the Law in order demonstrate the charges against him to be baseless and false.


Consider Acts 22...

"I am a Jew, born in Tarsus of Cilicia, but brought up in this city, educated under Gamaliel, strictly according to the law of our fathers, being zealous for God just as you all are today. (Acts 22:3)



Note that Paul doesn't say he was a Jew (past tense) but that he is a Jew (present tense). He also does not say that he was zealous for G-d but that he is (present tense) zealous for G-d. For Jews, this zealousness is expressed by their obedience to the commandments expressed in the Law of Moses.



Many false charges of this kind are brought against Paul. When he speaks before Festus in his own defense he declares:


"I have committed no offense either against the Law of the Jews or against the temple or against Caesar." (Acts 25:8)



At the end of his ministry, after Paul appeals to Caesar in his trial and is taken to Rome in chains, Paul speaks with the Jews of Rome:

After three days Paul called together those who were the leading men of the Jews, and when they came together, he began saying to them, " Brethren, though I had done nothing against our people or the customs of our fathers, yet I was delivered as a prisoner from Jerusalem into the hands of the Romans. (Acts 28:17)



This is the same Paul who wrote while in prison to the believers in Thessalonica:

So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught, whether by word of mouth or by letter from us. (2 Thessalonians 2:15)



If Paul had ever taught traditions that were contrary to the Torah/Law of Moses/the Law of the Jews, or the customs of the fathers then he would have been transgressing the Law and violating the customs of his fathers.

Paul's own words and the testimony of Scripture teach us that Paul never stopped keeping the Torah.

While Paul's obedience may come as a shock to some, we should recognize that there is no error in his actions.




1 Timothy 1
But we know that the Law is good, if one uses it lawfully, realizing the fact that law is not made for a righteous person, but for those who are lawless and rebellious, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers and immoral men and homosexuals and kidnappers and liars and perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound teaching, according to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, with which I have been entrusted.

None of what you posted addresses the scripture and question I asked.


For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. Matthew 5:18


Question:

Did Jesus fulfill the law?




First of all I am not discussing the TORAH, the first five books of the Bible.

I am discussing the law of Moses. The law of Moses was added to something.

Do you understand what the law was added to?


What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was appointed through angels by the hand of a mediator. Galatians 3:19

 

[JLB]

So, if Matthew 5:17 means that Yeshua fulfilled the whole law of God so that we do not have to, does that mean that Yeshua also fulfill practicing all righteousness so that we no longer have to practice righteousness?


Of course not. And that's not what he meant in Matt 5:17 either.

So you don't believe Jesus fulfilled the law?


“Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. Matthew 5:17


Jesus said He came to fulfill the law.


I believe Him.

The question is do you believe Him?

 

[Humblepie]

For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.
Matthew 5:18

Matthew 5:28 NIV
18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished

 

[Humblepie]

So you don't believe Jesus fulfilled the law?

I believe he fulfilled it in the sense that he lived it, and taught it, not in the sense that he made void the law.

 

[JLB]

Matthew 5:28 NIV
18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished

Do you believe Jesus accomplished His mission to fulfill the Law.

I do.

He said He came to fulfill the law.


I believe He did.

Do you?




JLB

 

[follower]

sigh.
fulfill does not mean it is no longer in effect.

 

[follower]

I'm not looking for a debate. I'm just fascinated how the OT directly relates to the NT.

The whole word of God is Truth. Including His Torah (instruction)

The word "Torah" in Hebrew is derived from the root ירה, which in the hif'il conjugation means 'to guide' or 'to teach'. The meaning of the word is therefore "teaching", "doctrine", or "instruction"

Calling Jesus Teacher ! Yes. He Is.
He Instructs us perfectly. YEAH!
To learn from Him is beyond words, beyond cost, beyond price, worth more than gold, yes than much fine gold !

 

[JLB]

I believe he fulfilled it in the sense that he lived it, and taught it, not in the sense that he made void the law.

You are adding your own opinion to His words.


Let the scripture speak for itself. It matters not what you believe or what I believe.


What matters is what Jesus said.


“Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. Matthew 5:17-18

• I did not come to destroy but to fulfill.
• one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.

Jesus said He came to fulfill the law. Whatever fulfill means to Him, He said He came to fulfill the law.

Jesus said not even a (period or comma), a jot or tittle will by no means pass from the law UNTIL all is fulfilled.


Does the word UNTIL refer to something being permanent or temporary?


Do we sacrifice animals for our sins; the law instructs us to.


Do you sacrifice animals for your sins?