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The word "Church" is not scriptural.

mdo757 said:
The reason I brought the subject up is, because the Catholic "Church" says that salvation can only be found in their "Church."

It sounds like you are misrepresenting what "no salvation outside the Church" means. Perhaps you should clarify what YOU THINK the Church is teaching here.

mdo757 said:
And I believe that is the reason for them to replace the word congregation with "Church."

Ekklesia is a congregation, a gathering, originally meant in the political sense. In a religious setting, the word church and congregation, and such are all synonymous. The term is used throughout the Septuagint, and does not refer to a Greek political gathering...

I am wondering where you think that the Church decided to "change" the meaning of ekklesia to take on the evil implications that you are positing.

Oh well, get in line. Bashing the Catholic Church seems to be a pre-occupation with those who got all the answers by their own "study"...

mdo757 said:
By the way, if anyone is wondering; I'am a Judaic Christian. AKA as a Judaizing Christian. And no, I do not believe that a person has to be circumcised.

What makes you "Judaistic", then?

Regards
 
mdo757 said:
The word "Church" is not in scripture.

The word "Assembly and Congregation" are INTERPRETATED as Church. Now what do you think of that?

If you will take notice, the word Church is not used in the Old Testament. The word Ekklesia is used 114 times, and mostly as an INTERPRETATION for Church and a few times as Assembly or Congregation. The word Church is an INTERPRETATION were as Assembly or Congregation would be a TRANSLATION.

The ecclesia or ekklesia was the principal assembly of the democracy of ancient Athens during its Golden Age (480-404 BCE). It was a gathering place for politicians and voters. This is what the point of this subject is: Many Christians place the importance of a "Church" as the only means of salvation, when in fact it is the believers themselves that are The Body of Christ. Salvation is obtained by your keeping of God's precept and Commandments in addition to the testamony of Yahshua. And that is what scripture says. That is The New Covenant. The True Church is the "congregation" of believers. A Chuch is a building for public gatherings of various sorts. Where ever the true believers assemble, that is the congregation. And again like I have said before, the word church is an interpretation for the words Assembly and Congregation.

:naughty
Great post !

Our ministry name 'Assembly Ministries' comes directly from what Ekklesia intends to mean. We are simply His 'calling out' or 'assembly' no matter who we are or where we are fellowshipping with.
 
A reminder for all:

Terms of Service#3:

Discussion of Catholic doctrine will be allowed in the One on One Debate Forum and End Times forum only. Do not start new topics or sway existing threads toward a discussion or debate that is Catholic in nature.
 
mdo's posts may seem extreme in some ways; yet his basic premise is true. The Greek word "εκκληÃια" just does not mean "church". It means "assembly". To prove this, in the following story from the book of Acts, I have written "church" wherever the word "εκκληÃια" occurs. Find out for yourself whether that makes sense!

About that time there arose no little stir concerning the Way. For a man named Demetrius, a silversmith, who made silver shrines of Artemis, brought no little business to the craftsmen. These he gathered together, with the workmen of like occupation, and said, "Men, you know that from this business we have our wealth. And you see and hear that not only at Ephesus but almost throughout all Asia this Paul has persuaded and turned away a considerable company of people, saying that gods made with hands are not gods. And there is danger not only that this trade of ours may come into disrepute but also that the temple of the great goddess Artemis may count for nothing, and that she may even be deposed from her magnificence, she whom all Asia and the world worship."

When they heard this they were enraged, and cried out, "Great is Artemis of the Ephesians!"
So the city was filled with the confusion; and they rushed together into the theater, dragging with them Gaius and Aristarchus, Macedonians who were Paul’s companions in travel. Paul wished to go in among the crowd, but the disciples would not let him; some of the Asiarchs also, who were friends of his, sent to him and begged him not to venture into the theater.

Now some cried one thing, some another; for the church was in confusion, and most of them did not know why they had come together. Some of the crowd prompted Alexander, whom the Jews had put forward. And Alexander motioned with his hand, wishing to make a defense to the people. But when they recognized that he was a Jew, for about two hours they all with one voice cried out, "Great is Artemis of the Ephesians!"

And when the town clerk had quieted the crowd, he said, "Men of Ephesus, what man is there who does not know that the city of the Ephesians is temple keeper of the great Artemis, and of the sacred stone that fell from the sky? Seeing then that these things cannot be contradicted, you ought to be quiet and do nothing rash. For you have brought these men here who are neither sacrilegious nor blasphemers of our goddess. If therefore Demetrius and the craftsmen with him have a complaint against any one, the courts are open, and there are proconsuls; let them bring charges against one another. But if you seek anything further, it shall be settled in the regular church. For we are in danger of being charged with rioting today, there being no cause that we can give to justify this commotion."

And when he had said this, he dismissed the church. Acts 19:23-41
 
francisdesales said:
mdo757 said:
The reason I brought the subject up is, because the Catholic "Church" says that salvation can only be found in their "Church."

It sounds like you are misrepresenting what "no salvation outside the Church" means. Perhaps you should clarify what YOU THINK the Church is teaching here.

mdo757 said:
And I believe that is the reason for them to replace the word congregation with "Church."

Ekklesia is a congregation, a gathering, originally meant in the political sense. In a religious setting, the word church and congregation, and such are all synonymous. The term is used throughout the Septuagint, and does not refer to a Greek political gathering...

I am wondering where you think that the Church decided to "change" the meaning of ekklesia to take on the evil implications that you are positing.

Oh well, get in line. Bashing the Catholic Church seems to be a pre-occupation with those who got all the answers by their own "study"...

mdo757 said:
By the way, if anyone is wondering; I'am a Judaic Christian. AKA as a Judaizing Christian. And no, I do not believe that a person has to be circumcised.

What makes you "Judaistic", then?

Regards
Matthew 16:16. Simon Peter answered, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God." 17Jesus replied, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven. 18And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this (that) rock I (you)will build my church, and the gates of Hades (the grave) will not overcome it.
Yahwah is God.
 
mdo757 said:
Matthew 16:16. Simon Peter answered, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God." 17Jesus replied, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven. 18And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this (that) rock I (you)will build my church, and the gates of Hades (the grave) will not overcome it.
Yahwah is God.

Yes, "Yahwah" is God. However, you are misinterpreting the passage. Simon's name changed here because HE is the rock in the passage. Otherwise, why do we see Paul and John call Simon by his new name. Obviously, the Lord gave it to him.

Regards
 
Paidion said:
mdo's posts may seem extreme in some ways; yet his basic premise is true. The Greek word "εκκληÃια" just does not mean "church". It means "assembly". To prove this, in the following story from the book of Acts, I have written "church" wherever the word "εκκληÃια" occurs. Find out for yourself whether that makes sense!

Church = assembly for religious purposes. The original meaning is assembly for a political purpose, but it is quite obvious that the context can allow for a religious assembly. I do not see the big deal here, except people looking for any little thing to rail at the Church.

The whole idea of the OP is silly.

Regards
 
mdo757 said:
All right! Some one is on my team. :thumb The reason I brought the subject up is, because the (Edit) "Church" says that salvation can only be found in their "Church." And I believe that is the reason for them to replace the word congregation with "Church." By the way, if anyone is wondering; I'am a Judaic Christian. AKA as a Judaizing Christian. And no, I do not believe that a person has to be circumcised.

Christian Churches do not say that salvation can only be found through their church. They say salvation can only be found through Christ. It is a trait of cults to say salvation can be found only through their particular church organization. It's also the trait of cults to be proud of being a judaizing Christians. I hope you find a better use for your time than attacking Christians with nutty criticism. There's a whole world out there full of real evil out there for you to find fault with, including churches full of compromise and cultishness.

Galatians 2:14 But when I saw that they are not walking uprightly to the truth of the good news, I said to Peter before all, `If thou, being a Jew, in the manner of the nations dost live, and not in the manner of the Jews, how the nations dost thou compel to Judaize?' (in simple English: Judaizing is of the Devil.)
 
francisdesales said:
mdo757 said:
Matthew 16:16. Simon Peter answered, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God." 17Jesus replied, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven. 18And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this (that) rock I (you)will build my church, and the gates of Hades (the grave) will not overcome it.
Yahwah is God.

Yes, "Yahwah" is God. However, you are misinterpreting the passage. Simon's name changed here because HE is the rock in the passage. Otherwise, why do we see Paul and John call Simon by his new name. Obviously, the Lord gave it to him.

Regards
I think everyone here knows that the name Peter means "Rock." What Yahshua was saying is that upon "THAT" "ROCK" you will build my Congregation. That Rock being Yahwah. Yahshua was giving the glory to the Father, and not to himself or Peter.
 
Rocksolid said:
mdo757 said:
All right! Some one is on my team. :thumb The reason I brought the subject up is, because the (Edit) "Church" says that salvation can only be found in their "Church." And I believe that is the reason for them to replace the word congregation with "Church." By the way, if anyone is wondering; I'am a Judaic Christian. AKA as a Judaizing Christian. And no, I do not believe that a person has to be circumcised.

Christian Churches do not say that salvation can only be found through their church. They say salvation can only be found through Christ. It is a trait of cults to say salvation can be found only through their particular church organization. It's also the trait of cults to be proud of being a judaizing Christians. I hope you find a better use for your time than attacking Christians with nutty criticism. There's a whole world out there full of real evil out there for you to find fault with, including churches full of compromise and cultishness.

Galatians 2:14 But when I saw that they are not walking uprightly to the truth of the good news, I said to Peter before all, `If thou, being a Jew, in the manner of the nations dost live, and not in the manner of the Jews, how the nations dost thou compel to Judaize?' (in simple English: Judaizing is of the Devil.)
The New Testament says that before people were first called "Christians" they were called converts to Judaism. There is a difference between Yahwah's commandment laws and the Mosaic laws.
 
mdo757 said:
I think everyone here knows that the name Peter means "Rock." What Yahshua was saying is that upon "THAT" "ROCK" you will build my Congregation. That Rock being Yahwah. Yahshua was giving the glory to the Father, and not to himself or Peter.

Please explain to me the purpose of Jesus calling Simon a "Rock" if the Architect is building upon Himself? What would be the significance of calling SIMON a ROCK, if Jesus is speaking of Himself (which the grammar does not support).

Regards
 
francisdesales said:
mdo757 said:
I think everyone here knows that the name Peter means "Rock." What Yahshua was saying is that upon "THAT" "ROCK" you will build my Congregation. That Rock being Yahwah. Yahshua was giving the glory to the Father, and not to himself or Peter.

Please explain to me the purpose of Jesus calling Simon a "Rock" if the Architect is building upon Himself? What would be the significance of calling SIMON a ROCK, if Jesus is speaking of Himself (which the grammar does not support).

Regards
I presume that Yahshua gave Simon the nick name "Peter." And so Yahshua was saying that although he calls Simon, Peter, (it is upon that Rock,) "God," whom was mentioned, prior in a sentence before. Old Testament scripture often called Yahwah, "The Rock." That would have been common knowledge to the Jews.
 
Gabriel Ali said:
A reminder for all:

Terms of Service#3:

Discussion of Catholic doctrine will be allowed in the One on One Debate Forum and End Times forum only. Do not start new topics or sway existing threads toward a discussion or debate that is Catholic in nature.
That is a very good rule. I literally had to run off most of my membership and close down my previous forum because of that topic so I had to forbid it entirely.
 
When you get right down to it, no English word is scriptural! ;)
 
follower of Christ said:
[quote="Gabriel Ali":2q58euuz]A reminder for all:

Terms of Service#3:

Discussion of Catholic doctrine will be allowed in the One on One Debate Forum and End Times forum only. Do not start new topics or sway existing threads toward a discussion or debate that is Catholic in nature.
That is a very good rule. I literally had to run off most of my membership and close down my previous forum because of that topic so I had to forbid it entirely.[/quote:2q58euuz]
Does not Catholic doctrine cover the entire bible? :crazy
 
Adullam said:
When you get right down to it, no English word is scriptural! ;)
If it is a "translation" it does. However, many words are "interpretations." :yes
 
francisdesales said:
mdo757 said:
I think everyone here knows that the name Peter means "Rock." What Yahshua was saying is that upon "THAT" "ROCK" you will build my Congregation. That Rock being Yahwah. Yahshua was giving the glory to the Father, and not to himself or Peter.

Please explain to me the purpose of Jesus calling Simon a "Rock" if the Architect is building upon Himself? What would be the significance of calling SIMON a ROCK, if Jesus is speaking of Himself (which the grammar does not support).

Regards
Personally I think this entire issue is yet another one of using ONE verse to twist into a whole doctrinal view that the rest of scripture does not support (since you seem to want to make an issue of what is 'supported' and what isnt).

*IF* Peter were actually this 'rock' then its VERY odd that Paul not only did so much of the writing for Gods word, but also even chastised Peter when Peter, the supposed leader of the church, fell into error.

The evidence would tend to 'support' more of an idea that PAUL was the one who actually was the head of the church, not Peter, since Paul is the one who has been called to be the apostle to the gentiles.

Your verse is VERY ambiguous as far as saying what you seem to claim it says, yet the concept isnt support anywhere else in scripture that Ive seen.
VERY odd that Christ was supposedly building the entire church on one man then that one man seems to fade into the shadows in Gods word for the most part...VERY odd indeed.

Not to mention some of the details would tend to show otherwise.
But from those who seemed to be something--whatever they were, it makes no difference to me; God shows partiality to no man--so to me, those with influence contributed nothing, but on the contrary, when they saw that I had been entrusted with the gospel for the uncircumcised, just as Peter with the gospel for the circumcised, (for He who worked with Peter in the apostleship to the circumcised, worked also with me in that for the Gentiles), and when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace which was given to me, they gave me and Barnabas their right hands of fellowship, that we should go to the Gentiles and they to the circumcised; only they desired that we should remember the poor, which indeed I made every effort to do this very thing. But when Peter came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he was to be blamed.
(Gal 2:6-11 EMTV)
If Peter is the 'rock' (foundation) of anything, it is only the Jews. And the texts dont even really show that he is anything more than James or John who are shown as being 'pillars' equally as Peter.

Then we have this lowly Paul daring to stand up to Peters face and tell him he is wrong, something that pretty much proves that Peter isnt actually any more than just an apostle, no more and no less than the others.

*IF* Jesus had meant that He was building anything upon Peter the man He certainly could have made a less ambiguous statement....'upon YOU I will build My assembly' would have made it very clear.
Since He didnt, and since the rest of scripture doesnt support the idea that He did, then its only logical to assume that the passage is being misinterpreted by some.
 
mdo757 said:
Does not Catholic doctrine cover the entire bible? :crazy
You are quite capable of showing your points from scripture as far as proving doctrine from scripture without mentioning the Catholic church or her doctrines specifically.
If you cant do so, then you sincerely need to examine your motives in posting.
 
follower of Christ said:
mdo757 said:
Does not Catholic doctrine cover the entire bible? :crazy
You are quite capable of showing your points from scripture as far as proving doctrine from scripture without mentioning the Catholic church or her doctrines specifically.
If you cant do so, then you sincerely need to examine your motives in posting.
I agree that the disciples were equal in their authority.
 
Adullam said:
When you get right down to it, no English word is scriptural! ;)

It's even worse than that, almost nothing Christians do is scriptural! I saw some Christians drinking coffee. None of them could tell me where drinking coffee is in the Bible. This coffee practice is even known to happen within assemblies of God. I saw another Christian driving a car. I asked him which saint in the Bible drove a car. The devil must have had his tongue because he didn't answer.
 
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