Bible Study The Words of Jesus

[Mike]

Rev 1
Grace and peace to you from him who is, and who was, and who is to come, and from the seven spirits before his throne, 5and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood, 6and has made us to be a kingdom and priests to serve his God and Father—to him be glory and power for ever and ever! Amen.
7Look, he is coming with the clouds,
and every eye will see him,
even those who pierced him;
and all the peoples of the earth will mourn because of him. So shall it be! Amen.
8"I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty."
One like a Son of Man

9I, John, your brother and companion in the suffering and kingdom and patient endurance that are ours in Jesus, was on the island of Patmos because of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus. 10On the Lord's Day I was in the Spirit, and I heard behind me a loud voice like a trumpet, 11which said: "Write on a scroll what you see and send it to the seven churches: to Ephesus, Smyrna, Pergamum, Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelphia and Laodicea." 12I turned around to see the voice that was speaking to me. And when I turned I saw seven golden lampstands, 13and among the lampstands was someone "like a son of man,"dressed in a robe reaching down to his feet and with a golden sash around his chest. 14His head and hair were white like wool, as white as snow, and his eyes were like blazing fire. 15His feet were like bronze glowing in a furnace, and his voice was like the sound of rushing waters. 16In his right hand he held seven stars, and out of his mouth came a sharp double-edged sword. His face was like the sun shining in all its brilliance.
17When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: "Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last. 18I am the Living One; I was dead, and behold I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades"


I was in a thread many months ago discussing this with a JW and used this chapter in Revelation to provide scriptural evidence that Jesus was speaking of Himself. He countered by stating that these Words were from God the Father in an attempt to make his point that Jesus was created as opposed to always been.

I'd like to study this chapter, and feel free to add other scriptural evidence that supports Jesus uttering these Words. The way they've re-worded the NWT is their method of dethroning Christ. If anyone is interested to see his reasons for claiming this was God the Father, I could go back and find them and post them here. But I'd rather keep our focus on our interpretation of True scripture.

 

[Nathan]

I think the very fact that He says, "I was dead...", then it automatically eliminates God the Father from the picture. Jesus was the only one of the 3 that has ever "died" as we know it.

nekros - "dead"
1) properly
a) one that has breathed his last, lifeless
b) deceased, departed, one whose soul is in heaven or hell
c) destitute of life, without life, inanimate

2) metaph.
a) spiritually dead

1) destitute of a life that recognises and is devoted to God, because given up to trespasses and sins

2) inactive as respects doing right
b) destitute of force or power, inactive, inoperative

This cannot ever be said of God.

 

[Nathan]

I did the evil deed....you guys should thank me for doing it and not making you guys do it....I went to the watchtowers NWT bible and got some verses. After I post this I am going to go take a shower. LOL

... “Do not be fearful. I am the First and the Last...the living one; and I became dead..."

 

[westtexas]

I did the evil deed....you guys should thank me for doing it and not making you guys do it....I went to the watchtowers NWT bible and got some verses. After I post this I am going to go take a shower. LOL

... “Do not be fearful. I am the First and the Last...the living one; and I became dead..."

I know what the JW's believe about our Lord Jesus and I disagree with all of the JW's doctrine but I'm not sure of the point you are attempting to make with your italics in this instance. Unless I am missing something here, if you quote the rest of the verse from the NWT it is not that much different from Young's Literal Translation or the NKJV.
Rev. 1:18....I became dead, but, look! I am living forever and ever---NWT
Rev. 1:18....and I did become dead, and, lo, I am living to the ages of the ages. Youngs Literal Translation
Rev. 1:18...I am He who lives and was dead, and behold, I am alive forever more NKJV

Westtexas

 

[Mike]

We know the NWT changes just enough to serve their purposes in "dethroning" Jesus. There isn't much, but a word here and a word there...

I was hoping, in putting this here in the Bible Study Forum, we could look at the verbiage to point to this being the Words of Christ, otherwise I would have posted this thread in Christianity & Other Religions. Perhaps this was not prudent, because as Christians, we'd all agree that this IS Jesus speaking. I suppose I was just looking for more of a discussion on the symbolism of what He Said.

 

[Nathan]

I know what the JW's believe about our Lord Jesus and I disagree with all of the JW's doctrine but I'm not sure of the point you are attempting to make with your italics in this instance. Unless I am missing something here, if you quote the rest of the verse from the NWT it is not that much different from Young's Literal Translation or the NKJV.
Rev. 1:18....I became dead, but, look! I am living forever and ever---NWT
Rev. 1:18....and I did become dead, and, lo, I am living to the ages of the ages. Youngs Literal Translation
Rev. 1:18...I am He who lives and was dead, and behold, I am alive forever more NKJV

Westtexas

oh, I had no 'point' in doing it that way other than I did not want to 'copy-write' without permission. I did not want to dig too deep to find out if it was ok to copy 'x' amount of words without asking. I just wanted to see if they cut out the phrase "I became dead". That one singular phrase, to me, cuts out the idea that God the Father could have been the one speaking.

Oh, the italics are only there to serve the purpose of designating it as Biblical passages. I try to do that as much as I can remember, sometimes I forget.

 

[Elijah674]

Mike, Elijah here. We all seem to get different highlights from Rev. There is not the faintest thought by me that we are not having the Inspiration of Holy [[SPIRIT]] God, and of Jehovah God along with the Christ God as Gods/Son here. Let me just mention that non/inspired man located the breaks & such, and then I will extend on into their next chapter a few verses. I am required to cut much out to get below our permissible word allowance. (these are my highlights only also)

Rev.1

[1] The Revelation of Jesus Christ, (Christ/God/Man) which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

[2] Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.
[3] Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.

[4] John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne;
[5] And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,
[6] And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

[7] Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.
[8] I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
[9] I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.
[10] I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet, (Mark 2:28)
[11] Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.

[12] And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks;
[13] And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle. (directly into the Most Holy place as our High Priest. As was documented that the dividing curtain 'rent' between the Holy Place into the Most Holy Place at Christ's death)

[14] His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;
[15] And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.
[16] And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his (we see that when Christ returns, His Glory will slay all of the wicked. 2 Thess. 2:7-12) countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.

[17] And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:
[18] I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death. (and was dead? Only as the Second Adam)
[19] Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;
[20] The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.

(I see this as extremely Important! It has to relate to only Christ Virgin Vineyard from His time on earth on in their Love relationship. It is not the Rev. 17:1-5 whore or harlot daughters as Inspiration has it.)


Rev.2

[1] Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks;

(we know what is to be the light to the world, right? the church representing Christ's Righteousness! There are three shafts in the OT Sanctuary coming out from the center shaft. Which I see as Christ the Light of the World for six thousand years. His Vineyard of Isa. 5 + the N.T. ones were all supposed to be such. Rev. 14:6)

[2] I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars: (compare Rev. 3:9)
[3] And hast borne, and hast patience, and for my name's sake hast laboured, and hast not fainted.
[4] Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love.

(OK: This is vital as I see it. A warning even though we are saved at the start of Being REBORN, and that is that our [Recreated Born Again Love can become stagnant, and worthless,] and we can be lost... but pay attention, THIS WAS THE WHOLE CANDLESTICK! Again see Rev. 3:16-17's last Virgin Fold for the sick SPEWED OUT of Christ's mouth as sickening!)

[5] Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else [I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place], except thou repent.

(This is exactly what happened to old Israel as Christ's Virgin Fold Vineyard, Isa. 3 + Matt. 23:38 + Laodicea of Rev. 3:16-17. Both times as Eccl. 3:15 documents, the six Fold Remnant replaced the last one! Israel stayed put & the Remnant were called out! Matt. 25 + Mat. 10:5-6 & verse 15??)

 

[Nathan]

We know the NWT changes just enough to serve their purposes in "dethroning" Jesus. There isn't much, but a word here and a word there...

I was hoping, in putting this here in the Bible Study Forum, we could look at the verbiage to point to this being the Words of Christ, otherwise I would have posted this thread in Christianity & Other Religions. Perhaps this was not prudent, because as Christians, we'd all agree that this IS Jesus speaking. I suppose I was just looking for more of a discussion on the symbolism of what He Said.

Is that not what we are doing :. I know I have stated it already, but the fact alone that He makes the statement of 'being dead' means that who ever is speaking at least 'tasted death'. This is symbolic of the death He died to redeem us.

Heb 2:9 But we see him who for a little while was made lower than the angels, namely Jesus, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

Seeing how we have no, at least to my knowledge, known passages that tell us that God the Father ever even 'tasted death'; this is where I would have to be convinced otherwise.

Whats your thoughts Mike? You talked with the guy on this verse right? What were the 'arguments' for and against?

 

[Mike]

Nathan, your first post was just what I had in mind, but the ones that followed started focusing on the NWT. I don't mind that, but in this case, perhaps this belongs in C&OR as opposed to Bible Study. Maybe I'm wrong, okay.

Here is a link from a conversation I was having (along with a few others) with a JW member, Mohrb. For the record, we started off choppy (I'm not proud of that) but he came to be among my favorite members, and we came to have deep respect for each other. I do miss him. This might be the best post to jump in as we were discussing Revelation 1. You'll have to decide how much to read. It was way over 300 pages. I don't get in such long discussions anymore. It's exhausting!

http://www.christianforums.net/f23/...ider-becoming-c-21328/index13.html#post423134