Theological Truth and Real Truth

[GodsGrace]

That should be interesting, and I promise to not tangle with Oz. We got off on the wrong foot when I first joined the forum. ??

LOL
Think twice before tangling with OzSpen !
You should check out his writings...
they're great!

Truth Challenge

truthchallenge.one

 

[GodsGrace]

wondering,

I consider that to be a dangerous position for these reasons:

Even the ECF or early church writings we encounter heresy, among those closest to Jesus and the original apostles:

• Gnosticism was a heresy that troubled the early church;
• ca. 140 Valentinus began teaching Gnostic views in Rome;
• In 144 Marcion was excommunicated from the church for Gnostic-like views.
• ca. 175, Basilides promoted Gnostic teachings in Alexandria.

This led to Irenaeus's refutation of Gnosticism, Against Heresies.

See Gnosticism: Definition and Beliefs.

Then in the third century, Unitarianism raised its ugly head through Arius (AD 256-336). He dominated the debate on the deity of Jesus. His primary beliefs were:

• Jesus was a created being with divine attributes but was not eternally divine (contrary to John 8:58; 10:30). Jesus was a finite being.
• He opposed the Trinity;
• Arius was was excommunicated from the church for his teachings at the Council of Nicea in AD 325.

Modern-day Arians are the JWs.

The responsibility for all Christians from the first century and to today is: 'Now the Berean Jews were of more noble character than those in Thessalonica, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true' (Acts 17:11 NIV).

If the Bereans had to check Paul's preaching against the Scriptures (it was not in book form then), we have no lesser obligation. I find too many Christians don't read the Bible regularly so they are sitting ducks for the content of false teachers.

Oz

Of course Oz....
I agree with all of the above.

BUT the ECFs were NOT the ones proposing the heresies.
They were the ones fighting the heresies.

Just because someone came right after Jesus or the Apostles does NOT make him an ECF.

This title is given to those that carried on the teachings of Jesus.
The "lost" or gnostic writings were not by them.

 

[OzSpen]

Do you think the N.T. might be second hand information at times? Who wrote the gospels? Who wrote Hebrews? Did Paul write ALL of the letters penned with his name?

If you'd care to read up on the ECFs here are a few you might be interested in:

Ignatius of antioch.......learned directly from Peter and knew John
Clement of Rome.........learned directly from Paul and knew Peter
Polycarp of Smyrna.....learned directly from John

There's a whole volume of 10 books of their writings,,,it costs really a lot. I don't have it...I look up stuff on google. For instance, if you wanted to know what they thought of salvation, that's what you would look for. You could type in the early church fathers or a particular one.

The ECFs are the ones that put together the New Testament...they are the ones that decided which books would be canonized.

Agreed on the above.
I was raising one child...a year old.
Would eventually have a second two years later.
And didn't know who anyone was!
Met Jesus at the age of about 28.

wondering,

All of the Early Church Fathers are available online at:

• New Advent, and
• CCEL.

Oz

 

[WIP]

If it isn't a contradiction -- why don't we agree?

Because we don't all understand things the same way, whether intentionally or unintentionally.

We have TOS here that must be read.
What good would they be if two people reading them come away with two different ideas? They must be written in such a way that BOTH will understand what is required to stay on this Forum.

We don't all come away reading the TOS with the same understanding. This is why we need moderators and admins.

Ever read a legal document? Why are they so hard to understand? It is because language is not always black and white and when those legal documents are drafted, an attempt is made to make them as clear as possible so they can stand up in court. But despite this, legal council will still debate the meaning of the documents.

If our legal think tanks can't express something with absolute clarity, who else can?

 

[WIP]

If you wanted to know what JFK really thought about something, would you ask someone he knew and worked with or would you ask some guy that read about him and wrote about him hundreds of years after he died?

The ECFs KNEW an Apostle and learned from him. And some ECFs learned from those persons....Don't you think they knew what the Apostles had learned from Jesus better than someone in some theology school today?

And yet, when Paul would return to where he previously taught he'd find misunderstandings, such as in Corinth and Galatia.

 

[Boaz]

Do you think the N.T. might be second hand information at times? Who wrote the gospels? Who wrote Hebrews? Did Paul write ALL of the letters penned with his name?

If you'd care to read up on the ECFs here are a few you might be interested in:

Ignatius of antioch.......learned directly from Peter and knew John
Clement of Rome.........learned directly from Paul and knew Peter
Polycarp of Smyrna.....learned directly from John

There's a whole volume of 10 books of their writings,,,it costs really a lot. I don't have it...I look up stuff on google. For instance, if you wanted to know what they thought of salvation, that's what you would look for. You could type in the early church fathers or a particular one.




The ECFs are the ones that put together the New Testament...they are the ones that decided which books would be canonized.



Agreed on the above.
I was raising one child...a year old.
Would eventually have a second two years later.
And didn't know who anyone was!
Met Jesus at the age of about 28.

I trust the Epistles because I trust God. He intended for us to have the information in the Bible. It is called God's word because it IS God's word. He spoke everything that is into existence, created life by breathing life into it etc. Of course He protected then Word He gave to us, protected it and preserved it. But more later. I need more coffee!

 

[GodsGrace]

wondering,

All of the Early Church Fathers are available online at:

• New Advent, and
• CCEL.

Oz

Thanks Oz.
I'd buy the volumes,,,but they're not avx here in English and to get them online would cost a fortune in shipping.

I don't really need to study it this much anyway...I feel like I know enough for my capabilities.

I've always wanted to start a thread on this, but I need more time.

 

[GodsGrace]

Because we don't all understand things the same way, whether intentionally or unintentionally.

We don't all come away reading the TOS with the same understanding. This is why we need moderators and admins.

Ever read a legal document? Why are they so hard to understand? It is because language is not always black and white and when those legal documents are drafted, an attempt is made to make them as clear as possible so they can stand up in court. But despite this, legal council will still debate the meaning of the documents.

If our legal think tanks can't express something with absolute clarity, who else can?

They could be debated because of loopholes.

Man is not perfect, that's for sure.

 

[GodsGrace]

And yet, when Paul would return to where he previously taught he'd find misunderstandings, such as in Corinth and Galatia.

Sure. They were used to believing in no god...or many gods...or the Law...etc.

I'm totally amazed at the effort these early persons made.

 

[Randy]

There is a difference in the theologies of man vs the truth of the gospel message.
Jesus came in the flesh. -The word became flesh.
Jesus is Lord of all and Gods Christ.
The forgiveness of sins is found in Him alone.
He was crucified and of great importance raised to life on the third day. - the resurrection.
Those that believe in Him (love Him) will obey His commands.
Faith expressing itself through love.

Those that deny these truths do not have Him and are liars. Those that proclaim faith in Him but do not love and continue to sin are false Christians as they don't belong to Him.

 

[GodsGrace]

There is a difference in the theologies of man vs the truth of the gospel message.
Jesus came in the flesh. -The word became flesh.
Jesus is Lord of all and Gods Christ.
The forgiveness of sins is found in Him alone.
He was crucified and of great importance raised to life on the third day. - the resurrection.
Those that believe in Him (love Him) will obey His commands.
Faith expressing itself through love.

Those that deny these truths do not have Him and are liars. Those that proclaim faith in Him but do not love and continue to sin are false Christians as they don't belong to Him.

This is very true Randy....
We are, after all, disciples of Jesus.

Could not have been said more simply and correctly.

 

[GodsGrace]

If that what we're discussing? Hmmm, maybe it is. I think the bible is the foundation to hold to, and the foundation to hold other parts of life to. But then after that as long as you are acting within the scope of what you know in the bible, and what you do, what you say, and what you believe aren't corrected by the bible, then everything else after that is a a mix between living life the right way, and potentially being led in the right direction.

I know some persons that have never read the bible and yet love God and seem to me to keep His teachings and live a life that would please God.

Then I know some persons that tell me they're Christian and they go to Mass, but the demonstration of God being in their life just isn't there.

One of my such friends is very hard and refuses to forgive persons...even from many years ago. MAYBE in these cases it would be good to know what the bible says,,,what is written in it...the fact that we are required to forgive.

I think maybe we need both.
We need to know God.
We need to know what He expects from us...we need to be TAUGHT. Some things come naturally and maybe some others do not.

Some people say they felt led or called to move, to change jobs, or to enter into a ministry. As long as any of those things aren't contrary to what's taught in the bible, then it's possible that that person was led by the Holy Spirit, or led by Jesus, or led by God. It's stories and experience like those that feel me with hope that God still acts in the world today and leads us like He led Israel sometimes through the prophets, or through men of faith or filled with the Holy Spirit.

I agree with you 100%.
I always hear persons say that God told them this and that. Kind of makes me feel, lately, like He never talks to me.

If we're living within God's will, then what we do could be said to be hearing and doing what God wants. I mean....there is no audible voice, so I believe this is the way to "hear" Him.

I don't deny that sometimes he does speak to our heart and it's very clear...but this doesn't seem to happen often....I just kind of know what He would want.

For instance the bible points to Jesus, and I hold the bible to be reliable source for finding God. In that way the bible will not lead you astray and away from God, from Jesus, or from the Holy Spirit. Nonetheless when Paul was healed after he was blinded, the Christian who healed him was to,d to do so in a dream or a vision. He didn't read it in the scriptures or in the writtings of the early believers. He was led.

Another good point....
God speaks to us in many ways.
That woman I told you about at the beginning of the post hears God every day even though she never read the bible.

To the idea if the bible is more true then Jesus, my thought is that if you find any contradiction, then that means it's not really Jesus. The bible point to Jesus. And Jesus is the truth, He won't contradict what's in the bible.

Right.
But if I had to choose...I'd choose Jesus.
If the love is real....my life will reflect it.

 

[Boaz]

I know some persons that have never read the bible and yet love God and seem to me to keep His teachings and live a life that would please God.

Then I know some persons that tell me they're Christian and they go to Mass, but the demonstration of God being in their life just isn't there.

One of my such friends is very hard and refuses to forgive persons...even from many years ago. MAYBE in these cases it would be good to know what the bible says,,,what is written in it...the fact that we are required to forgive.

I think maybe we need both.
We need to know God.
We need to know what He expects from us...we need to be TAUGHT. Some things come naturally and maybe some others do not.



I agree with you 100%.
I always hear persons say that God told them this and that. Kind of makes me feel, lately, like He never talks to me.

If we're living within God's will, then what we do could be said to be hearing and doing what God wants. I mean....there is no audible voice, so I believe this is the way to "hear" Him.

I don't deny that sometimes he does speak to our heart and it's very clear...but this doesn't seem to happen often....I just kind of know what He would want.


Another good point....
God speaks to us in many ways.
That woman I told you about at the beginning of the post hears God every day even though she never read the bible.


Right.
But if I had to choose...I'd choose Jesus.
If the love is real....my life will reflect it.

Very well said W. While I don't think we have the right to judge in what way God may choose to communicate with an individual, we can discern the content of this message, using the Bible as the measuring rod. However I do feel quite certain that He no longer speaks to us with an audible voice. I address this also to Not Now Soon' s comment on Paul's being healed of blindness by a Believer who received these instructions in a vision, not from the Bible.
Hebrews 1: 1,2
"In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets many times and in various ways, but in these days He has spoken to us by His Son----"
The situation with Paul, was an entirely different situation than we are in after the NT was was available, or the writings distributed.
Paul was being appointed by Jesus as an Apostle. This was at the very beginning of the Apostles mission of establishing the foundation of the Church. The miracle healing and the manner in which God instructed Ananias, were a mark, so to speak, a visible verification that Paul had been appointed by God and that his words carried Jesus's authority.
Now God primarily speaks to us in His Word. The Book is closed. We no longer need prophets, or the spoken out loud voice of God. Now He speaks to us through Jesus, that is His words contained in Scripture.
But God will do whatever He wants or needs to do in an individual's life. However our feelings about something is not a reliable thing to depend on. God will see to it, through whatever means, that we get where He wants us to go. That does not mean we are passive. Personally, when I have a decision to make, a big one, not a day by day type of decision, that's what He gave us brains for, but a big one I pray that He would open a way to go in the direction He desires or me, and stop me from going a wrong way. And then I do whatever due diligence is necessary on my part. It has played out ok so far.
And W that is the problem with all the God told mes, and God said we hear. It makes us sometimes feel like less loved by God, or that we are doing something wrong. Sometimes it hits us that way, even when we know better. You have it right. Live your life loving God and knowing and loving His Word. That is God speaking to you always.

 

[GodsGrace]

Very well said W. While I don't think we have the right to judge in what way God may choose to communicate with an individual, we can discern the content of this message, using the Bible as the measuring rod. However I do feel quite certain that He no longer speaks to us with an audible voice. I address this also to Not Now Soon' s comment on Paul's being healed of blindness by a Believer who received these instructions in a vision, not from the Bible.
Hebrews 1: 1,2
"In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets many times and in various ways, but in these days He has spoken to us by His Son----"
The situation with Paul, was an entirely different situation than we are in after the NT was was available, or the writings distributed.
Paul was being appointed by Jesus as an Apostle. This was at the very beginning of the Apostles mission of establishing the foundation of the Church. The miracle healing and the manner in which God instructed Ananias, were a mark, so to speak, a visible verification that Paul had been appointed by God and that his words carried Jesus's authority.
Now God primarily speaks to us in His Word. The Book is closed. We no longer need prophets, or the spoken out loud voice of God. Now He speaks to us through Jesus, that is His words contained in Scripture.
But God will do whatever He wants or needs to do in an individual's life. However our feelings about something is not a reliable thing to depend on. God will see to it, through whatever means, that we get where He wants us to go. That does not mean we are passive. Personally, when I have a decision to make, a big one, not a day by day type of decision, that's what He gave us brains for, but a big one I pray that He would open a way to go in the direction He desires or me, and stop me from going a wrong way. And then I do whatever due diligence is necessary on my part. It has played out ok so far.
And W that is the problem with all the God told mes, and God said we hear. It makes us sometimes feel like less loved by God, or that we are doing something wrong. Sometimes it hits us that way, even when we know better. You have it right. Live your life loving God and knowing and loving His Word. That is God speaking to you always.

A beautiful post!
And I agree with all you've said.
About not trusting our feelings but what we know to be true...and everything else you said.
:nod

 

[Boaz]

A beautiful post!
And I agree with all you've said.
About not trusting our feelings but what we know to be true...and everything else you said.
:nod

Why thank you, thank you very much. (Said in the voice of Elvis Presley)

 

[OzSpen]

Thanks Oz.
I'd buy the volumes,,,but they're not avx here in English and to get them online would cost a fortune in shipping.

I don't really need to study it this much anyway...I feel like I know enough for my capabilities.

I've always wanted to start a thread on this, but I need more time.

wondering,

You can buy them from Amazon for US$1,100 + postage. However, the same number of volumes is available on Kindle for $4.00: https://www.amazon.com.au/s?k=Early+Church+Fathers&ref=nb_sb_noss

I no longer buy hard copies but use Kindle on phone and PC.

Oz

 

[JLB]

LOL
Think twice before tangling with OzSpen !
You should check out his writings...
they're great!

Truth Challenge

truthchallenge.one

Amen. I’m reading some of his stuff, especially the definitions which I love.


I hope to use some in the new Soteriology Section with His permission.

Awesome.



JLB

 

[Boaz]

This is a good topic for me. I love the expression, "And the truth shall set you free." Before I was a Christian I did not know this was in the Bible. I thought Benjamin Franklin wrote it. He was a self-help author and said, "God helps those who help themselves." Anyway . . .

I have to prioritize. There is the one GREAT truth which is that Christ came down to earth to die for our sins and that he was indeed resurrected. And he sent the Holy Spirit for us.

Then there is the truth of scripture even though it has been translated a lot and sometimes and contradicts itself. And culturally it holds women back. Still it is the light of the world.

The third truth is what the Holy Spirit says to me each day. It has to fit certain criteria like being loving, but other than that she tells me what to do as a wander around each day. She says do this and do that. Avoid this and give a smile to him or her etc. Now and then, doing what she says saves my life. Long story . . .

Not to get picky or anything but who is she? Cause it sounds like you are referring to the Holy Spirit and the Bible clearly calls Him a He.

 

[Susannah]

I think we should agree to disagree, but here is my thinking . . .

The Bible does not specifically say that the Holy Spirit is male, but it does use the male pronoun "he" to describe the HS. Until twenty years ago writers were required to use the male pronoun for everything.

The Bible mostly uses metaphors to describe the Holy Spirit: dove, wind, comforter, counselor, gatekeeper etc. etc.

My metaphor comes from "rach" which is a Hebrew term for the Holy Spirit which is a feminine term like "she."

In reality, the Holy Spirit has no gender but is actually spirit. Like the wind it has no gender. It is only when we try to describe the Holy Spirit that we have to use metaphors.

My metaphor for the Holy Spirit is a woman named Spirit. She is kind and gentle. To understand why I have chosen this you have to know a little about feminine and masculine personality traits which were introduced by Carl Jung who believed in spirituality.

In no way am I suggesting that the Holy Spirit is female. I just use she rather than he when describing our Comforter.

Thanks.

 

[OzSpen]

I think we should agree to disagree, but here is my thinking . . .

The Bible does not specifically say that the Holy Spirit is male, but it does use the male pronoun "he" to describe the HS. Until twenty years ago writers were required to use the male pronoun for everything.

The Bible mostly uses metaphors to describe the Holy Spirit: dove, wind, comforter, counselor, gatekeeper etc. etc.

My metaphor comes from "rach" which is a Hebrew term for the Holy Spirit which is a feminine term like "she."

In reality, the Holy Spirit has no gender but is actually spirit. Like the wind it has no gender. It is only when we try to describe the Holy Spirit that we have to use metaphors.

My metaphor for the Holy Spirit is a woman named Spirit. She is kind and gentle. To understand why I have chosen this you have to know a little about feminine and masculine personality traits which were introduced by Carl Jung who believed in spirituality.

In no way am I suggesting that the Holy Spirit is female. I just use she rather than he when describing our Comforter.

Thanks.

Susannah,

pneuma (spirit/Spirit) is a neuter noun in NT Greek. However, like German, every noun has a gender and that gender does not determine its translation. For example, in Greek wra (hour) is feminine; spiti (house) is neuter; and kosmos (people, world) is masculine.

Because a Greek noun is one gender with a definite article from that gender does not mean it is to be translated as male, feminine and neuter. The context tells the nature of the noun subject.

Oz