There are many mysteries about God.

[Bruce Leiter]

Nowhere in the bible says faith and intellect are incompatible. Jesus taught through a lot of relatable parables to the crowd, is the kingdom of heaven literally a wheat field or a drag net? Actually, if you don't reason it through, if you only process the Scripture without studying and experiencing it, you'll end up like the shallow soil, you'll be smothered by the trials and tribulations. And if you do go as the bible goes, it is written in the bible that Babylon the Great is a mystery, God is not a mystery, he manifested through Jesus, who revealed his true self and the fate of humanity to apostle John.

You're right that we need to use our intellects; I agree. However, are the Bible's teachings and history primary in your reasoning, or is your logic primary in deciding what it means.

For example, in deciding the meanings of words in the Bible, do you use word studies of the passages and their contexts in which they appear determine their meanings, or do you think your reasoning can figure that out on your own?

Do you let some teachers' ideas control your understanding of the Bible's meaning, or do you approach it without prior ideas? Are you always testing your understanding with the Bible's history and teachings and letting God change your thoughts and life?

Are you saying in your last sentence that God is one Person shown in Jesus, not three Persons in one God, as shown in the Gospel of John?

 

[Bruce Leiter]

It's based on human doctrine, not Scripture. You're putting God in the box of trinitarian theology. Mine on the other hand is based on Gen. 1:1 and Ex. 3:14, anything else, including his triune nature, derives from there.

You do realize I've never said "eternal creation", don't you? How can creator NOT be at the core of his identity when He created time and space out of nothing, ex nihilo? I cling to his identity revealed by himself in Gen. 1:1 and Ex. 3:14 instead of speculating with my own intellect. If there's a pre-existing nature of His being, that's the mystery OP talks about, it's not for you or I to speculate.

No surprise, typical tactics, accusing your opponent of your own guilt.

Again, you're not in a place to speculate God's motive of creating the universe. You were not there, and you are not self-existent. The Trinity is a mechanism to know his identity, in and of itself it's NOT his core identity. Enlighten me on one thing, was Gen. 1:1 written first or Jn. 1:1? If you admit it's Gen. 1:1, then his core identity is the eternal creator. I cling to apostle Paul's teaching when he preached God to the Areopagus, wherein God's identity, according to Paul, is the eternal Creator.

God, who made the world and everything in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands. (Acts. 17:24)

Carry_Your_Name, you're always referring to Exodus 3:14 and Genesis 1:1. If I can show you conclusively that Jesus repeatedly identifies with the God who has appeared to Moses in the burning bush by claiming, therefore, that he is fully God, would you finally agree that God is Triune at his essence?

Here I go: First, Jesus makes seven "I am" claims in the Gospel of John as metaphors comparing his divine nature with that same God's spiritual reality:

Jhn_6:35 Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me shall not hunger, and whoever believes in me shall never thirst.

Jhn_8:12 Again Jesus spoke to them, saying, “I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will not walk in darkness, but will have the light of life.”
Jhn_8:58 Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.”
Jhn_9:5 As long as I am in the world, I am the light of the world.”

Jhn_10:7 So Jesus again said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep.
Jhn_10:9 I am the door. If anyone enters by me, he will be saved and will go in and out and find pasture.

Jhn_10:11 I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep.
Jhn_10:14 I am the good shepherd. I know my own and my own know me,

Jhn_11:25 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. Whoever believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live,

Jhn_14:6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

NOTE: When Jesus says, "I am (ego eimi) the good Shepherd," he claims that he is David's divine Shepherd (Psalm 23:1).

Jhn_15:1 “I am the true vine, and my Father is the vinedresser.
Jhn_15:5 I am the vine; you are the branches. Whoever abides in me and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing.

Second, now, what connects Jesus' claims with Exodus 3:14? In the Greek Old Testament, which is the Septuagint, God's word of "I AM" as his name is "ego eimi." The word "eimi" would be sufficient to be translated "I am," but God adds the word "ego," which is properly translated "I," for emphasis "I, I AM."

In New Testament Greek, Jesus does exactly the same thing by saying seven times, "ego eimi" to claim deity and divine actions and qualities. He uses the exact same words as the God of the burning bush does to name himself, as you rightly point out.

Third, therefore, Jesus claims to be that one God with the Father and the Holy Spirit seven times in the Gospel of John, thus revealing God to us.

 

[Bruce Leiter]

Carry_Your_Name, you're always referring to Exodus 3:14 and Genesis 1:1. If I can show you conclusively that Jesus repeatedly identifies with the God who has appeared to Moses in the burning bush by claiming, therefore, that he is fully God, would you finally agree that God is Triune at his essence?

Here I go: First, Jesus makes seven "I am" claims in the Gospel of John as metaphors comparing his divine nature with that same God's spiritual reality:

Jhn_6:35 Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me shall not hunger, and whoever believes in me shall never thirst.

Jhn_8:12 Again Jesus spoke to them, saying, “I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will not walk in darkness, but will have the light of life.”
Jhn_8:58 Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.”
Jhn_9:5 As long as I am in the world, I am the light of the world.”

Jhn_10:7 So Jesus again said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep.
Jhn_10:9 I am the door. If anyone enters by me, he will be saved and will go in and out and find pasture.

Jhn_10:11 I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep.
Jhn_10:14 I am the good shepherd. I know my own and my own know me,

Jhn_11:25 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. Whoever believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live,

Jhn_14:6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

NOTE: When Jesus says, "I am (ego eimi) the good Shepherd," he claims that he is David's divine Shepherd (Psalm 23:1).

Jhn_15:1 “I am the true vine, and my Father is the vinedresser.
Jhn_15:5 I am the vine; you are the branches. Whoever abides in me and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing.

Second, now, what connects Jesus' claims with Exodus 3:14? In the Greek Old Testament, which is the Septuagint, God's word of "I AM" as his name is "ego eimi." The word "eimi" would be sufficient to be translated "I am," but God adds the word "ego," which is properly translated "I," for emphasis "I, I AM."

In New Testament Greek, Jesus does exactly the same thing by saying seven times, "ego eimi" to claim deity and divine actions and qualities. He uses the exact same words as the God of the burning bush does to name himself, as you rightly point out.

Third, therefore, Jesus claims to be that one God with the Father and the Holy Spirit seven times in the Gospel of John, thus revealing God to us.

Carry_Your_Name, I'm still waiting for your response to my post. If you don't respond, I will assume that you agree with me.

 

[Bruce Leiter]

Carry_Your_Name, I'm still waiting for your response to my post. If you don't respond, I will assume that you agree with me.

Carry_Your_Name, your silence speaks volumes. I'm thankful that we can agree on this issue, that God is a Mystery who is in some ways beyond our ability to understand him.

 

[Free]

Carry_Your_Name, your silence speaks volumes. I'm thankful that we can agree on this issue, that God is a Mystery who is in some ways beyond our ability to understand him.

Don't take his silence as any particular indicator of anything.

 

[Bruce Leiter]

Don't take his silence as any particular indicator of anything.

You're probably right, Free!

 

[Elijah7777]

God is a Mystery who is in some ways beyond our ability to understand him.

What we do understand is more than we can process.

 

[RandyK]

What we do understand is more than we can process.

It's like walking on the back of a whale the size of the Pacific Ocean. Actually, that whale to God would look smaller than the size of a grain of sand. We don't know what we're dealing with except that God has lowered the voltage by transforming His greatness via His Word so that we can understand a minute amount about Him. It's enough for us, His iddy biddy little creatures. '_'

 

[Elijah7777]

so that we can understand a minute amount about Him.

That is why we have Jesus and His plan of redemption and salvation. He was fully God and fully man so He can relate to us and know how we feel.

 

[RandyK]

That is why we have Jesus and His plan of redemption and salvation. He was fully God and fully man so He can relate to us and know how we feel.

I think I would stumble over my words if I met him in person. What could I say that he didn't already know? ;)

 

[Elijah7777]

I think I would stumble over my words if I met him in person. What could I say that he didn't already know? ;)

The Wayne’s World phrase “We’re not worthy!” comes to mind.

 

[UVSaturated]

In eastern orthodox, God the Father has always been mysterious, and that's because He as the creator of the universe is OUTSIDE the universe he created, he's beyond time and space. We can perceive benevalent things that eminated from Him - marvels, wonders, wisdom, illumination, energy, all of his providence, but the Father himself, the source of all his benedictions are incomprehensible. One theologian once said that God is like the sun up in the sky, we can't live without it, yet we can't look at it directly. As far as I'm concerned, the holy trinity is not God's core identity, but a mechanism to communicate with us, a bridge across the chasm of sin. The bible is not exhaustive, it's not all what and who God is, says the bible itself (Jn. 21:25), yet it's sufficient, it's the special revelation of God, through which we get to know him.

Well said, and I challenge anyone to say that there is any other religion that has a book about it. Does Hinduism have a book about a God coming to save the people that worship him? No. Does Islam Have a Messiah who comes and delivers his worshipers? No. Only Christianity has this and is apart from all other religious beliefs. I felt like saying this in support of what you said.

 

[Elijah7777]

Does Hinduism have a book about a God coming to save the people that worship him?

You may be surprised. For example Karma is not that different from Sowing and Reaping. If you allow me, what Christians have is the Blood of Jesus. No one can be saved without being cleansed in the Blood. So the real question here is do we have to confess to be a christian to be saved or can we be a closet Christian and be saved?

I had a discussion with the head of missions in a church I attanded. He said we have to convert people. I said are you willing to go to an Arab country with me to convert people. He thought about it and came back to say no, he was not willing to do that.

• In most Arab countries, Muslims are not legally permitted to convert to another faith.
• Such acts are considered apostasy, which in some jurisdictions is punishable by imprisonment, loss of civil rights, or even death (though enforcement varies).

No doubt Jesus has to do a work in us to save us. But does the Arab has to make a public confession and endure being martyred.

Muslims who convert to Christianity have been martyred, both historically and in modern times. The act of leaving Islam, known as apostasy, is considered a serious offense in many Islamic societies, and converts often face imprisonment, torture, exile, or death.

 

[Bruce Leiter]

You may be surprised. For example Karma is not that different from Sowing and Reaping. If you allow me, what Christians have is the Blood of Jesus. No one can be saved without being cleansed in the Blood. So the real question here is do we have to confess to be a christian to be saved or can we be a closet Christian and be saved?

I had a discussion with the head of missions in a church I attanded. He said we have to convert people. I said are you willing to go to an Arab country with me to convert people. He thought about it and came back to say no, he was not willing to do that.

• In most Arab countries, Muslims are not legally permitted to convert to another faith.
• Such acts are considered apostasy, which in some jurisdictions is punishable by imprisonment, loss of civil rights, or even death (though enforcement varies).

No doubt Jesus has to do a work in us to save us. But does the Arab has to make a public confession and endure being martyred.

Muslims who convert to Christianity have been martyred, both historically and in modern times. The act of leaving Islam, known as apostasy, is considered a serious offense in many Islamic societies, and converts often face imprisonment, torture, exile, or death.

Elijah7777, karma is a fake imitation of God's truth. The difference is vast, because karma depends on human works, whereas God's grace causes our works after he saves as well as any "reaping" of heavenly treasure we receive for our good works as believers. So, karma gives credit to people, whereas God's Word gives it to God alone.

Sadly, the Muslims in a lot of countries have identified their religion and the government established as one, which was the huge mistake the Christian church made in becoming established in the Roman empire and European countries. Thankfully, the French and American Revolutions both separated the governments from the churches so that none of them were established as favorites.

 

[Elijah7777]

@Elijah7777, karma is a fake imitation of God's truth.

That is fine, if you do not see any connection between "karma" and sowing and reaping. Jesus said: "And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’" Matthew 7:23. So it looks to me like the real issue is whatever it means to be "lawless". Good vibes may not be enough to please God.

 

[Elijah7777]

God has lowered the voltage by transforming His greatness via His Word so that we can understand a minute amount about Him.

Today I was looking at Quarks. In Job 38:4 "“Where were you when I laid the earth’s foundation?" Quarks are the smallest known particles—building blocks of protons and neutrons. So you can not build a foundation without them.

“For since the creation of the world God’s invisible attributes—His eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.” — Romans 1:20

This verse is a cornerstone of Paul’s theology. He’s saying that creation itself is a revelation—a living module, if you will—through which we can recognize God’s power, wisdom, and divinity. The stars, the seeds, the quarks, the rivers—they’re not just scenery. They’re structured testimony.

 

[RandyK]

Today I was looking at Quarks. In Job 38:4 "“Where were you when I laid the earth’s foundation?" Quarks are the smallest known particles—building blocks of protons and neutrons. So you can not build a foundation without them.


This verse is a cornerstone of Paul’s theology. He’s saying that creation itself is a revelation—a living module, if you will—through which we can recognize God’s power, wisdom, and divinity. The stars, the seeds, the quarks, the rivers—they’re not just scenery. They’re structured testimony.

Good point--never thought of the building blocks of things are themselves testimonials. I'm not particularly good with physics, but at some point the power that holds things together and moves them are controlled by God's own word. So, if they're trying to find out what quarks are made of, I think at some point they'll find a note saying, "Made by God." ;)

 

[Elijah7777]

I think I would stumble over my words if I met him in person. What could I say that he didn't already know? ;)

• Luke 17:15–19: One leper returned to give thanks, and Jesus said, “Your faith has made you whole.” Thanksgiving became the doorway to restoration.
• Psalm 100:4: “Enter His gates with thanksgiving, and His courts with praise.” Gratitude is the key to presence.

Good point--never thought of the building blocks of things are themselves testimonials.

I was reading the book Sepher Yetzirah. This talks about how everything is a metaphor. Not only our body but the entire universe. The Hasidic teach a lot on what is in this book. It is a lot easier to have AI teach me what the book says. For example we have two hands, one for giving and one for receiving. Everything represents or means something.

 

[RandyK]

• Luke 17:15–19: One leper returned to give thanks, and Jesus said, “Your faith has made you whole.” Thanksgiving became the doorway to restoration.
• Psalm 100:4: “Enter His gates with thanksgiving, and His courts with praise.” Gratitude is the key to presence.

I was reading the book Sepher Yetzirah. This talks about how everything is a metaphor. Not only our body but the entire universe. The Hasidic teach a lot on what is in this book. It is a lot easier to have AI teach me what the book says. For example we have two hands, one for giving and one for receiving. Everything represents or means something.

I think that's very insightful. One of the 1st things God showed me as a recommitted young Christian is that everything He made was out of love--the sky for birds, the vegetables for man's appetite, the flowers for our eyes, our fingers to take things we like and enjoy, etc. etc. There is nothing that wasn't made by God that wasn't out of love.

It may not seem like it because a loving God also may give us give free will, if He should desire, and then have to deal with the consequences of our bad choices. But justice is also love.

But I like how you seem to indicate that intelligent design so permeates the universe that everything can represent a facet of God's wisdom and creativity. They are indeed metaphors of something, which we may see when God so wishes to show us.

I don't think I can handle too much of God's love because the transition to bad experiences become too much to bear. Best to save some things for our eternal future?

 

[Elijah7777]

karma is a fake imitation of God's truth.

karma is a spiritual law of cause and effect. Not fake at all. But I think the point you're trying to make is that Karma does not save us. The finished work of Calvary saves us.

Karma, as a spiritual law of cause and effect, is real within its own framework. It reflects a deep truth: that actions have consequences, and that moral order matters. In that sense, it’s not fake—it’s a vessel for understanding justice and accountability. Many traditions honor it as a way to teach responsibility, humility, and ethical living.

David expresses his love for the law of God most clearly in Psalm 119:97:

“Oh, how I love Your law! All day long it is my meditation.”

This isn’t just admiration—it’s affection. David sees the law not as a burden, but as a vessel of divine wisdom, a reflection of God’s character.