THERE ARE NO MORAL ABSOLUTES!

[John the Baptist]

Quote: "But if mercy and love are not higher moral values than justice, then what God did to Christ, when it pleased Him to "bruise" His son (Isaiah 53:5), was a great injustice. But God cannot be unjust. Therefore, the cross makes sense only if the demands of justice are subordinated to the desires of mercy!"
______

(my high/light above)
I 'myself' see it as being equal. I would like a verse that says the above, to be posted?? Both are recorded as being Everlasting Gospel & Everlasting Covenant. Revelation 14:6 & Hebrews 13:20. Also the Covenant is said to be the 'EPISTLE' (letter) of Christ in 2 Corinthians 3:3 Compare the K.J. on Isa. 42:21 There is NO Moral way to do away with, or degrade the Epistle Testimony of Christ and maintain Christianity. See Revelation 12:17

"And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the 'remnant' of her seed, [No. 1} which [keep the commandments of God] and [No. 2] and [have the testimony of Jesus Christ.]" Again: Isa. 42:21 (my emphasis)

If the Moral Eternal law could have been ditched, then Christ would have died in vain. It could not be done, and that is why it took the Christ/God's (no created angel) death.
---John

**Please take note that we can click on ALL the bible verses in any post & they will come up for us to read! Most know this, some perhaps do not? We do need the spelling of the bible book correctly & fully spelled out! That is a moral, right? :wink:

John here again:
"The Law of the Lord is PERFECT!, converting the soul." Check out Psalm 19:7

Let me just give these verses for the documented fact from Inspiration as for Christ's Eternal Love Covenant.
First see Deuteronomy 6:1-8

Then see Christ very own Words of Matthew 22:35-40

Also Christ Word's in Mark 12:28-34

And In Hebrews 10:16 & Hebrews 8:10 we see Inspiration tell us what God's Eternal plan for Their creation always was, regardless of the time/frame! Hebrews 13:20 Notice the Hebrews 11:13's ones all died being MORAL 'IN' Christ! Romans 8:1 & Philippians 4:13

 

[John the Baptist]

Gary, sorry I missed his "ramblings" the first time. :o

Soma, can the theatrics please and take a break or one will be issued to you. I'm not kidding. I find your comment hostile and very offensive.

1 - This is a Christian site, therefore, any attempt to put down Christianity and the basic tenets of our Faith will be considered a hostile act. Active promotion of sinful behavior will not be permitted. This includes promotion of homosexual behavior. Individual restrictions may apply on a Forum to Forum basis. Please check the announcements and stickeys at the top of each Forum.

******
Please Victor, don't take my 'defence' of the post wrong? The person's [POST] raises a 'perfect' way to right satan's twisting of Gods REAL LOVE! 2 Corinthians 4:2 (although it really sounds to me, that the 'post' (?) is just done in ignorance?) Here is what was said:

Quote by:
SomaSight.
.....Of course the crucifixtion is the most startling example of all!

Not only does God the Father kill his own Son thorugh mans hands.... His only Son committs SUICIDE!!!!

AT ANY MOMENT JESUS COULD HAVE CALLED DOWN A LEGION OF ANGELS TO RESCUE HIM..... HE ALLOWED HIS DEATH TO HAPPEN ACTIVELY WHICH IS NOTHING MORE.... NOTHING LESS....

THAN SUICIDE!

******
John again: He and others need to understand this! Not only Why did man/Christ choose to die, and for the rest of the Godhead suffering through this?? Why, is a good question? we say that this was LOVE! That is not the question, some of us see this & understand this, yet many do not know what love is!! Do we get that?? Some think that it is 'feeling' 'excitement' 'emotion', do not most even, think this?

Christ and the Godheads LOVE, HAS, AND ALWAYS HAS BEEN, AND ALWAYS WILL BE BASED ON PRINCIPLE! They All felt miserable at this moment of Christ's CRYING OUT, MY GOD, MY GOD, WHY HATH THOU FORSAKEN ME??? Why did they allow for this to take place is what the world needs to know!

Yet, John 3:16 surely only explains it to 'some'! Matthew 4:4 It is a fact.. but unless ones KNOWS what TRUE LOVE IS, they are as this 'Matthew 25 Foolish' poster, yet, with a very good question. The original question was way back, asking about MORAL'S. And this is where we have ended up, what is MORALITY? We see that it is LOVE as some correctly say!! Well then, What is LOVE??

OK: Now we see that it is a LOVING PRINCIPLE & not the emotional tack on's! So, now comes the Loving Moral Principle that one would die for!

Why then did Christ and the Godhead surrender in death Christ/man to satan, was it based upon eternities MORAL LOVE? Perhaps it can best be illustrated by me at least (others could do a better job perhaps!) from Daniel 3:13-20? The three men were brought before the king. We know the story, they were about to commit suicide as some seem to think. They would not bow down to Nebuchadnezar's golden image! And the King gave them another chance!
The Word's of Daniel 3:16-18 stated clearly that the three knew & believed that God could deliver them from the fiery furnace, BUT, if He did not do so, they STILL WERE NOT GOING TO BOW DOWN TO THE GOLDEN IMAGE? Why???? That is the question that this poster does not understand!
It is called MORALITY And it is based upon Christ's Eternal MORAL 'EPISTLE'! 2 Corinthians 3:3 And the Love for, & from the Godhead, is an MATURE PRINCIPLE!

It was because [they LOVED GOD!] And this required LOVE is recreated, and it is a MORAL RECREATED PRINCIPAL! And it is based UPON THE ETERNAL MORAL COVENANT OF THE GODHEAD!
This test as well as Christ's death were in.. bottom line Truth, based on the first table of the Covenant. Bow down & worship who? satan? So, for the carnal heart, they will always understand that to follow Christ, means a possible death sentence in this life!

Matthew 4:8-10 tell's the Universe also what Christ came to do, as well as die for mankind. satan wanted worship, and he still demands it! See Isaiah 42:21! Take some time to study that verse in the K.J.. :wink:

It is very True that Christ came to save repentant lost mankind. (LOVE second table of the Covenant) Yet, the bottom line Truth was over who one Truly LOVED! And this True Agape Love can only be understood by one that has been Born Again. (the first table of the Covenant)

 

[Vic C.]

Please Victor, don't take my 'defence' of the post wrong? The person's [POST] raises a 'perfect' way to right satan's twisting of Gods REAL LOVE! 2 Corinthians 4:2 (although it really sounds to me, that the 'post' (?) is just done in ignorance?) Here is what was said:

Don't worry, I take no offense at all. I am confused as to why you don't see this for the contemptous statement it is. Doesn't it trouble you that someone would actually suggest Jesus' death was suicide? Add to that the fact that it was all written in CAPS; which in internet terms, is the equivalence of shouting. Plus, I didn't bring this up 'til now, but posting in all caps is a violation of the TOS too. :wink:

 

[Rick W]

We crucified Christ. Each one of us, Soma-sight, vic, Lewis W, moniker, prophecy4, Drew, Poke, Gary, Solo, John the Baptist, unred typo, Potluck, ... all of us ... as sure as we were one of the soldiers wielding the mallets. We're all guilty, none are innocent. None are without sin.

To do the actual deed God used the unbeliever to condemn Christ, to initiate a devine act though their motives were set on another idea.
And the believers didn't want Jesus to even go to Jerusalem. Had they had their way we would not have had a redeemer.


Luke 23:34 Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do...

Matthew 16:23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offense unto me: for thou savorest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.

Almost seems backwards doesn't it?

 

[John the Baptist]

Please Victor, don't take my 'defence' of the post wrong? The person's [POST] raises a 'perfect' way to right satan's twisting of Gods REAL LOVE! 2 Corinthians 4:2 (although it really sounds to me, that the 'post' (?) is just done in ignorance?) Here is what was said:

Don't worry, I take no offense at all. I am confused as to why you don't see this for the contemptous statement it is. Doesn't it trouble you that someone would actually suggest Jesus' death was suicide? Add to that the fact that it was all written in CAPS; which in internet terms, is the equivalence of shouting. Plus, I didn't bring this up 'til now, but posting in all caps is a violation of the TOS too. :wink:

****
First the things that you mention about [all] CAPS. You just used some of them in REAL LOVE & CAPS. For me, it meant 'emphasis'. All caps mean stupid poster perhaps? :wink: Whatever? Your remark of REAL LOVE is shouting??? OK.

Anyway, a case in point might be Peters 3 time vision. We today seem to have a harder time with it than did Peter, of knowing of its meaning? So I feel that TRULY an emphasis is needed. And TRULY was not meant as shouting.

Now: Back to the topic of Christ and suicide. Vic, I honestly do not know anything about any of these posters. (male, female, or their standing in their mind with Christ? growth or whatever? John 3:5-8) I come on here with the understanding that we found a REAL KILLER as in Saul Acts 9:1--- on, who in a few verses on, of passing, found that he was in full submission to Christ, the one that he was persecuting. Acts 9:5 & Acts 9:6.

And then I see the 1 John 2:4 one's who make a claim??? Even both ways.
And the ones in Matthew 7:13-14. But there is no way for me to take offence with any poster's person, just their 'post'. (message) It is the message that I take offense with. (yet, very very few, even understand that)

I realize that there is a huge difference in how many come to Christ as in Jude 1:22-23. Each has their personal experience if that has been their experience at all?

Now, you ask me if that 'evil' satanic stuff bothers me? You know that any sin is sin, & surely it bothers me. Revelation 18:4 James 2:8-12. (see 2 Peter 2:7) Yet, we cannot read the heart or the motive of ones mind. We cannot know where one is at in the life experience with God can we? And, the forum is not a church, where it is required of God to keep pure to have Him abide there. (Joshua 7:12's last part of the verse.

But surely, there are very much more troubling 'postings' that I take offence with that go directly against the forums statement of faith, as I see it. But, censorship?? No, I do not want to see that except for legal reasons. And I understand that I am one in many who might see it this way? And it might not be understood by most why God let satan live on either?

And yes, I too have no problem with your rules here. You ones are the boss of the site and so forth, I just ask that when the ax drops just let me know and I will take it from there. This is still one of the best sites around, (not the only one) but we all know that one day it will be required to change. I suspect that the more mod's any site gets, the more heat is generated?

 

[Drew]

While I would never deny that moral "codes" (which find expression in the form of "rules" such as "you shall not bear false witness, you shall not steal, etc.) are valuable guidelines, I am quite convinced that such rules have "exceptions" that are situationally determined. So in this regard, I think I agree with the OP. However, this does not really diminish the value of these "rules" in constraining human behaviour - the "rules" should be obeyed unless the overarching principle of acting lovingly mandates breaking the rule (this is what I see Jesus teaching in Matthew 12).

And, in a sense, I would even assert that such rules are "absolute" - not in the sense that there are no exceptions to them, but rather in the sense that, as guidelines, they may indeed be the best possible guidelines. So, one cannot assume that, just because there may be exceptions, that the "rules" are not "absolute" - recognizing that rules have exceptions is not a mandate for "everything goes". I hope that what I am saying is reasonably clear.

I do think that a purely rules-based approach to living is not very wise. It is on this basis that you get ridiculous ideas like someone should divorce their present spouse in order to be re-united with a spouse they had previously divorced. Frankly, I am mystified that any person would consider doing such a thing, just because a highly technical interpretation of Jesus' teaching on divore might seem to support this.

It is better to understand the principles that undergird the "rules" (which is what I think Jesus teaches in Matthew 22) and thereby have the wisdom to determine when it would not be sin to "pull your sheep out of a pit on the Sabbath".

 

[John the Baptist]

Well, I see that my posting is just spinning my wheels.

---John

 

[Dave...]

All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.

There's one source of moral absolutes.

 

[jculp123180]

Stealing

I'm pretty sure that Exodus 20:15 says "You shall not steal" (NASB)

 

[Soma-Sight]

In other words, a moral law can be absolute yet not obeyed. If you understand "graded absolutism" at all (and it is Biblical), you will understand that the overriding duty to keep the higher law makes it unnecessary to follow the demands of the lesser command.

I believe in the theory of ethical presumptions which basically states to follow the ethical theory which is right MOST OF THE TIME.

With that stated I would add that I PERSONALLY follow the Ten Commandments to the best of my ability (usually) but at times find it necesary to "bend the rules" due to reason superceding simplistic conclusions. (try telling the truth to your girlfriend when you dont like her outfit) :

DREW EXCELLENT POST! 8-)

 

[Soma-Sight]

Soma, can the theatrics please and take a break or one will be issued to you. I'm not kidding. I find your comment hostile and very offensive

Probably about as offensive as calling Muslims Devil worshippers and Hindus satanic......

But I get the point. :bday:

 

[moniker]

Never let your sense of morals prevent you from doing what is right.

 

[John the Baptist]

Soma, can the theatrics please and take a break or one will be issued to you. I'm not kidding. I find your comment hostile and very offensive

Probably about as offensive as calling Muslims Devil worshippers and Hindus satanic......

But I get the point. :bday:

****
THERE ARE NO MORAL ABSOLUTES!

Hi Soma, you started this above thread, right? Well then, about your post 'today' above, you paint with a large brush Muslim and devil worshippers, unless you mean that all Muslims are devil worshipers??

Regardless, I wanted to say that Revelation 18:4 teaches that Christ has His people in all kinds of Revelation Babylonian twisted up 'folds'. John 10:16 also. So, we see that we are accountable to what Truth we have, and can have access to, or have rejected it seems, huh?

This brings one directly into the last day setting of Hosea 4:6. 'Truth' & 'Light' rejection! And about these 'MORAL ABSOLUTES'. You need to see Revelation's last few verses! (if your real name was ever recorded in the Book of Life to begin with?) Also see the Ecclesiastes 3:14's first warning! The Word of Gods tell the Universe what Eternal Covenant ARE ABSOLUTES even in Ecclesiastes 12:13-14.

But we need to understand what is the start & the FINISH on this subject. We can see where Saul (Paul) came to the moment of Truth in Acts 9:1-6. This was it! Which way did he go? v. 6.
Then there was another who started out well, and was given the Holy Spirit of God, and later on the Holy Spirit left King Saul who made shipwreck.

Then we come to the MORAL ABSOLUTES that you [openly] reject in print!? In Davids case we see a great start also, as with King Saul. Yet, we see an Godly repentance before the Book of Psalm is finished. Yet, David came very close to the point of no return as did Saul (Paul) no doubt. (no question mark for me, perhaps for others?) But regardless of this thought, David 'pens' under Holy Spirit Inspiration, and after through Conversion, an ETERNAL TRUTH that you do not accept!

In Psalm 19:7-14 in the K.J. we see that the Holy Spirit starts out with Davids pen, the Words of the Master. (Word of God)
"[The LAW OF THE LORD IS PERFECT, CONVERTING THE SOUL:] (then comes into mind, your post?) the testimony of the Lord [IS SURE] making wise [the simple]. ...
More to be [DESIRED are they than gold ... Moreover [by them IS THY SERVANT WARNED... (I know this is not your claim, yet it was Davids)

Who can understand his errors? cleanse Thou me from secret faults."

So far, one can see that the pen of David was telling us of the Eternal Covenant Law of the Godhead. (Hebrews 13:20) And he tells of [secret faults] and of ones WARNING. And we today have been doing things KNOWINGLY wrong for a long time perhaps? Even in open print, and false doctrines that we are convinced of that are wrong, and we know better even! Well, David knew what he did was openly done & EVIL. Yet, when he was confronted by Nathan, he made no bones about it, when he was told that thou art the man! Yet, here in Psalm 19:7-12 where David tells of Eternal Moral Absolutes, he pen's one more VITAL verse for ETERNITY! I will come back to the next verse in a moment.

Christ's Word tells us that there is a starting point of sin in James 1:15.
His Word again tells us in 1 John 5:16-17 that there is a sin unto death, and a sin NOT UNTO DEATH. Well in King Saul, and Saul to Paul, and David case, we see that one of them made shipwreck! And Christ told us what that means in Matthew 12:31-32. Here we see sin at it starting point all the way to its finished ENDING!

We also have the Moral Covenant seen in definition as Absolutes! In 1 John 3:3 Any sin starts one on the down hill path to the full cup. Yet, it is still not the sin [UNTO ETERNAL DEATH YET!] "Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth [also the law], for [sin is the transgression of the law]."

How close does one need to come?? When any person walks in [OPEN DOCUMENTED SIN], they are on Very DANGEROUS GROUND!

OK: back to David in the K.J. Psalm 19:13 And pay close attention to the Words there! David had just been telling us about the Eternal Covenant of the Godhead, and he goes on with...

"Keep back thy servant [*ALSO] from [PRESUMPTUOUS SINS;] let them not HAVE DOMINION OVER ME; *THEN shall I be unright, [and I shall be INNOCENT FROM THE GREAT TRANSGRESSION]".

First is the Eternal Covenant pointing out sin. Then we know of the 'thing'. Romans 8:14. Then come our being LED!? If not? We Grieve or Quench the Holy Ghost by not following on as we agreed at baptism! It is now a sin that is PRESUMPTUOUS, and it is leading one down the pathway of NO RETURN & Eternal Loss, to where we are unable to ever again be reached by the Holy Spirit! : See Genesis 6:3.

Bottom line:
Read 2 Samuel 12:1-7 & the Absolute in 2 Samuel 12:9-14.
OK: What kind of a man are you???

---John

 

[karenlynne]

:-D Stating that there are no absolutes is a logical contradiction and thus false.

 

[Drew]

:-D Stating that there are no absolutes is a logical contradiction and thus false.

Not true - there is no contradiction here.

Let's say Fred claims: "There are no moral absolutes". We will call this claim "C".

Is C asserted to be "absolute"? No it is not. Fred can claim C without insisting that C have the property of being "absolute". C can still be factually true, of course.

Consider the following claim C1 also made by Fred:

C1 = "There is no life on other planets"

Is C1 "absolute" in the sense that it is beyond the possiblity of being incorrect. No it is not, But it is still a possible state of affairs.

So there is no logical contradiction in asserting that there are no moral absolutes. It is simply a statement about a possible way that our universe might be.

 

[bladed-truth]

Being in the situation doesn't change whether it is right or wrong.

God didn't kill His son. Just because God knew Jesus would be killed, doesn't mean he did it. Just because Jesus didn't stop it doesn't make it suicide.

If a person on death row kills all the officers that are trying to take him to the electric chair, is that murder? Is that justified? Is it suicide if a person chooses not to fight back when someone is trying to kill them?

God never says He's ok with stealing, but He is acknowledging that people do steal and what the penalty should be.

Just to give you an insight as to my mind frame. I stole some money using the internet because I lost my job and had no way to pay bills or eat. Is this justified? In my opinion, NO it's not. Now I have to pay restitution and might go to prison. Is this just? I think the restitution is, but not the jail time, because I would lose my job and not be able to pay restitution and the cycle would start again.

Rights and wrongs are not based on the stituation you are in, they are concrete. For example, you could lie to save the Jews from the Nazis or you could tell the truth and still save the Jews from the Nazis. People always have options, they just tend to choose the easist one and not necessarily the one that is right.

If I step in front of a train and wait for it to hit me (Knowing that it will, and having the capacity to step out of the way) does that equal suicide?

 

[Vic C.]

If I step in front of a train and wait for it to hit me (Knowing that it will, and having the capacity to step out of the way) does that equal suicide?

Would you be saving someone in the process of doing so? :wink:

 

[GundamZero]

LYING

If a Nazi came to your house and was looking for the Jews in your basement and you said you had none and LIED about it.....

You are JUSTIFIED!
No, you are not justified, but you are under GRACE.
NO MORAL ABSOLUTES

KILLING

If you came upon a grown man violently hurting/raping a 9 year child and you kill him.....

You are JUSTIFIED!
The Lord said,"Thou shalt not commit murder." Not,"Thou shalt not kill" Common mistake. Murder is the premeditated,selfish, and hateful taking of human life. However, capital punishment is justiace for the protection of society.

NO MORAL ABSOLUTES

STEALING

If your wife and 2 year old child are starving to death and you have an opportunity to steal bread from the local rich dude and do it.....

You are JUSTIFIED!
You are not justified. It is not right. God does not consider it right. But once again, you can be under grace.
NO MORAL ABSOLUTES

ADULTERY

If you are a married woman in a Russian prison camp (WW 2 and TRUE STORY) and the only way out of the camp is to be PREGNANT; and happen to find a soldier willing to have 'relations' with you because it is the only way to be pregnant and see your husband and kids again and do it.......

You are JUSTIFIED!
Once again, you are not justified. The ends never justifies the means. But you can be under grace.
NO MORAL ABSOLUTES

SUICIDE

If you step on a land mine and blow yourself to bits and the only thing you can do is..... well NOTHING and are on a ventilator and ask to be taken off because it is so painful......

You are JUSTIFIED!
There is noway to justify that. Fleeing from pain, though understandable, is still sin, and cowardice, selfish. The taking of life for selfish ends is murder, even if it is your own life, because we belong to God, and not to oursevles. But you can be under grace.
NO MORAL ABSOLUTES

The whole point of moral absolutes is to show us that we can't fulfill God's standard of Holy. And you just prove that once one man sins, we all go down with the ship. That's why Christ came to save us from sin.

Soma, Christ said that he and only he is the way to the Father. If you do not believe that to be absolute, you are not a Christian. Period.

 

[bladed-truth]

If I step in front of a train and wait for it to hit me (Knowing that it will, and having the capacity to step out of the way) does that equal suicide?

Would you be saving someone in the process of doing so? :wink:

Hmm, good answer.

 

[Vic C.]

[quote="bladed-truth":c9d2f]
If I step in front of a train and wait for it to hit me (Knowing that it will, and having the capacity to step out of the way) does that equal suicide?

Would you be saving someone in the process of doing so? :wink:

Hmm, good answer. [/quote:c9d2f]
The reason I asked is because of this single verse that speaks volumes on this subject:

John 15:13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.