Things That Are Not In the U.S. Constitution

[Lewis]

Things That Are Not In the U.S. Constitution
And Separation Of Church And State in one of them. This site tell you about the things, people say is in the constitution but are not, very informative.
http://www.usconstitution.net/constnot.html#church

 

[Lance_Iguana]

Things That Are Not In the U.S. Constitution
And Separation Of Church And State in one of them. This site tell you about the things, people say is in the constitution but are not, very informative.
http://www.usconstitution.net/constnot.html#church

hey I'm reading a coppy of the Bill of rights, and guess what it says in teh first amendment to the US constitution..................Seperation of Church and State.

CONGRESS SHALL MAKE NO LAW RESPECTING AN ESTABLISHMENT OF RELIGION, OR PROHIBITING THE FREE EXERCISE THEREOF; OR ABRIDGING THE FREEDOM OF SPEECH, OR OF THE PRESS; OR THE RIGHT OF THE PEOPLE PEACEABLY TO ASSEMBLE, AND TO PETITION THE GOVERNMENT FOR A REDRESS OF GRIEVANCES.

 

[Lewis]

The separation of church and state is a legal and political principle derived from the First Amendment to the United States Constitution, which reads, "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof . . ." The modern concept often credited to the writings of English philosopher John Locke, the phrase "separation of church and state" is generally traced to an 1802 letter by Thomas Jefferson to the Danbury Baptists, where Jefferson spoke of the combined effect of the Establishment Clause and the Free Exercise Clause of the First Amendment. It has since been quoted in several opinions handed down by the United States Supreme Court,[1] though the Court has not always fully embraced the principle.
Want more go here.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Separation ... ted_States

 

[Lance_Iguana]

The separation of church and state is a legal and political principle derived from the First Amendment to the United States Constitution, which reads, "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof . . ." The modern concept often credited to the writings of English philosopher John Locke, the phrase "separation of church and state" is generally traced to an 1802 letter by Thomas Jefferson to the Danbury Baptists, where Jefferson spoke of the combined effect of the Establishment Clause and the Free Exercise Clause of the First Amendment. It has since been quoted in several opinions handed down by the United States Supreme Court,[1] though the Court has not always fully embraced the principle.
Want more go here.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Separation ... ted_States

So it means exactly what It sates? No state religion. What are you arguing?

 

[Lewis]

I am not arguing about anything

 

[animal]

Who says seperation of church and state is in the constitution? What argument are they trying to make?

 

[Lance_Iguana]

I am not arguing about anything

You stated that Separation of Church and state isn't in the constitution. That is the argument. I responded by saying that it is. Then you posted a link that also stated that the concept is in the constitution.

What is the discussion?

 

[Lewis]

Thomas Jeffersons statement is where it comes from, did you read that ?
And would they say these things if that were so ?

THE BIBLE AND THE CONSTITUTION

"Our laws and our institutions must necessarily be based upon and embody the teachings of the Redeemer of mankind. It is impossible that it should be otherwise; and in this sense and to this extent our civilization and our institutions are emphatically Christian." - United States Supreme Court, 1892.

While making certain not to endorse any denomination of religion over another, the founders of this nation made it emphatically clear that the principles upon which this Nation was built are based squarely upon the Bible.

Virtually every one of the 55 writers and signers of the United States Constitution were members of various Christian denominations: 29 were Anglicans, 16 to 18 were Calvinists, 2 were Methodists, 2 were Lutherans, 2 were Roman Catholic, 1 lapsed Quaker and sometimes Anglican, and 1 open deist--Dr. Franklin who attended every kind of Christian worship, called for public prayer, and contributed to all denominations.

George Mason is called the father of the Bill of Rights, for he insisted that the first ten amendments be added to the Constitution. The purpose for such an addition? "The laws of nature are the laws of God, whose authority can be superseded by no power on earth," Mason said.

James McHenry was a member of the Continental Congress, a state legislator, a soldier, and a signer of the Constitution...as well as the president of the first Bible Society in Baltimore. McHenry stated:

Neither...let it be overlooked, that public utility pleads most forcibly for the general distribution of the Holy Scriptures.

The doctrine they preach, the obligations they impose, the punishment they threaten, the rewards they promise, the stamp and image of divinity they bear, which produces a conviction of their truths, can alone secure to society, order and peace, and to our courts of justice and constitutions of government, purity, stability, and usefulness.

Charles Cotesworth Pinckney also signed the Constitution, and served as a delegate to the national Constitutional Convention and an author of the Constitution of South Caroline. Pinckney was a statesman, soldier, planter, a brigadier general and a candidate for President and Vice-President. Like the rest of the signers of the Constitution, he too recognized the Sovereignty of God:

"Blasphemy against the Almighty is denying his being or providence, or uttering contumelious reproaches on our Saviour Christ. It is punished, at common law by fine and imprisonment, for Christianity is part of the laws of the land."

And, for those who fear this sort of Law breeds intolerance or disrespect for others, Patrick Henry boldly declared:

It cannot be emphasized too strongly that this great nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religions, but on the Gospel of Jesus Christ. For this very reason peoples of other faiths have been afforded assylum, prosperity and freedom of worship here.

Likewise, the Constitution of the United States was drafted so as to be in accordance with the Scriptures, to be the legal foundation of a republican form of government based on that model which God had ordained for the children of Israel. Indeed, Thomas Jefferson even suggested that the national seal be a portrayal of "the children of Israel in the wilderness, led by a cloud by day and a pillar of fire by night." Much of the Constitution and our American common law and organic law is also derived from the principles of the Magna Carta, which expressly forbade monarchial tyranny.

In accordance with the spirit of Liberty which motivated those Righteous men of Principle so many years ago,

We the members of the U.S. Taxpayers Party gratefully acknowledge the blessing of the Lord God as Creator, Preserver and Ruler of the Universe and of this Nation...

The U.S. Constitution established a republic under God, rather than a democracy.

In a republic governed by Constitutional law rooted in Biblical law,all life, liberty and property are safe because Law rules. - Preamble, USTP Platform
http://www.shalomjerusalem.com/heritage/heritage17.html

 

[Lance_Iguana]

Thomas Jeffersons statement is where it comes from, did you read that ?
And would they say these things if that were so ?

THE BIBLE AND THE CONSTITUTION

"Our laws and our institutions must necessarily be based upon and embody the teachings of the Redeemer of mankind. It is impossible that it should be otherwise; and in this sense and to this extent our civilization and our institutions are emphatically Christian." - United States Supreme Court, 1892.

While making certain not to endorse any denomination of religion over another, the founders of this nation made it emphatically clear that the principles upon which this Nation was built are based squarely upon the Bible.

Virtually every one of the 55 writers and signers of the United States Constitution were members of various Christian denominations: 29 were Anglicans, 16 to 18 were Calvinists, 2 were Methodists, 2 were Lutherans, 2 were Roman Catholic, 1 lapsed Quaker and sometimes Anglican, and 1 open deist--Dr. Franklin who attended every kind of Christian worship, called for public prayer, and contributed to all denominations.

George Mason is called the father of the Bill of Rights, for he insisted that the first ten amendments be added to the Constitution. The purpose for such an addition? "The laws of nature are the laws of God, whose authority can be superseded by no power on earth," Mason said.

James McHenry was a member of the Continental Congress, a state legislator, a soldier, and a signer of the Constitution...as well as the president of the first Bible Society in Baltimore. McHenry stated:

Neither...let it be overlooked, that public utility pleads most forcibly for the general distribution of the Holy Scriptures.

The doctrine they preach, the obligations they impose, the punishment they threaten, the rewards they promise, the stamp and image of divinity they bear, which produces a conviction of their truths, can alone secure to society, order and peace, and to our courts of justice and constitutions of government, purity, stability, and usefulness.

Charles Cotesworth Pinckney also signed the Constitution, and served as a delegate to the national Constitutional Convention and an author of the Constitution of South Caroline. Pinckney was a statesman, soldier, planter, a brigadier general and a candidate for President and Vice-President. Like the rest of the signers of the Constitution, he too recognized the Sovereignty of God:

"Blasphemy against the Almighty is denying his being or providence, or uttering contumelious reproaches on our Saviour Christ. It is punished, at common law by fine and imprisonment, for Christianity is part of the laws of the land."

And, for those who fear this sort of Law breeds intolerance or disrespect for others, Patrick Henry boldly declared:

It cannot be emphasized too strongly that this great nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religions, but on the Gospel of Jesus Christ. For this very reason peoples of other faiths have been afforded assylum, prosperity and freedom of worship here.

Likewise, the Constitution of the United States was drafted so as to be in accordance with the Scriptures, to be the legal foundation of a republican form of government based on that model which God had ordained for the children of Israel. Indeed, Thomas Jefferson even suggested that the national seal be a portrayal of "the children of Israel in the wilderness, led by a cloud by day and a pillar of fire by night." Much of the Constitution and our American common law and organic law is also derived from the principles of the Magna Carta, which expressly forbade monarchial tyranny.

In accordance with the spirit of Liberty which motivated those Righteous men of Principle so many years ago,

We the members of the U.S. Taxpayers Party gratefully acknowledge the blessing of the Lord God as Creator, Preserver and Ruler of the Universe and of this Nation...

The U.S. Constitution established a republic under God, rather than a democracy.

In a republic governed by Constitutional law rooted in Biblical law,all life, liberty and property are safe because Law rules. - Preamble, USTP Platform
http://www.shalomjerusalem.com/heritage/heritage17.html

Nice history lesson, but please highlight and show me exactly where it says in that wall of text that everyone must submit to the laws of Jesus and Moses.

Saying that just because some of the founding fathers where Christian doesn't mean this is a Christian nation with a State religion of Christianity.

I could use your exact same approach to say that Women and blacks are lesser then whites because the constitution was originally drafted with that mindset.

 

[Lewis]

Lance my brother you just twisted my words.

 

[Lance_Iguana]

Lance my brother you just twisted my words.

I apologize if I did. I'm trying to get a better idea of what exactly you are getting at.

A reminder to anyone reading my statements, I'm not taking shots at anyone's views to make fun of them. I'm play devils advocate and actually voicing concerns that some may not have noticed or considered before. If anyone is offended by what I'm saying, take a step back and think about what I said and try and see what I'm trying to say. ;)

 

[Lewis]

All I am getting at is this, America was founded on Biblical principles, and that statement by Thomas Jefferson over Separation of Church and State, can be explained, below.


Today, many Americans think that the First Amendment says "Separation of Church and State." The Courts and the media will often refer to a ruling as being in violation of the "Separation of Church and State." A recent national poll showed that 69% of Americans believe that the First Amendment says "Separation of Church and State." You may be surprised to learn that these words do not appear in the First Amendment or anywhere else in the Constitution!1 Here is what the First Amendment actually does say.

The First Amendment :

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

So where did the words "Separation of Church and State." come from? They can be traced back to a letter that Thomas Jefferson wrote back in 1802. In October 1801, the Danbury Baptist Association of Connecticut wrote to President Jefferson, and in their letter they voiced some concerns about Religious Freedom. On January 1, 1802 Jefferson wrote a letter to them in which he added the phrase "Separation of Church and State." When you read the full letter, you will understand that Jefferson was simply underscoring the First Amendment as a guardian of the peoples religious freedom from government interference. Here is an excerpt from Jefferson's letter. . .

"I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between church and State." Read the full text of Jefferson's letter to the Danbury Baptist Association ..

Jefferson simply quotes the First Amendment then uses a metaphor, the "wall", to separate the government from interfering with religious practice. Notice that the First Amendment puts Restrictions only on the Government, not the People! The Warren Court re-interpreted the First Amendment thus putting the restrictions on the People! Today the government can stop you from Praying in school, reading the Bible in school, showing the Ten Commandments in school, or have religious displays at Christmas. This is quite different from the wall Jefferson envisioned, protecting the people from government interference with Religious practice.

When Thomas Jefferson wrote his letter to the Danbury Baptist Association he never intended the words "Separation of Church and State" to be taken out of context and used as a substitute for the First Amendment, but for all practical purposes is what the courts have done.

If actions speak stronger then words, it is interesting to note that 3 days after Jefferson wrote those words, he attended church in the largest congregation in North America at the time. This church held its weekly worship services on government property, in the House Chambers of the U.S. Capital Building. The wall of separation applies everywhere in the country even on government property , without government interference. This is how it is written in the Constitution, this is how Thomas Jefferson understood it from his letter and actions, and this is how the men who wrote the Constitution practiced it.

"The metaphor of a wall of separation is bad history and worse law. It has made a positive chaos out of court rulings. It should be explicitly abandoned."Chief Justice of the U.S. Supreme Court, William Rehnquist

Also notice that there are two parts to the First Amendment that refer to religion: the establishment clause2 and the free exercise clause3. Today much is said about the establishment clause but there is very little mention of the free exercise clause.

While the words "Separation of Church and State" do not appear in the U.S.A. Constitution, they do appear in the constitution of the former U.S.S.R. Communist State.

At the very heart of Jefferson's idea "Wall of Separation", is the notion that the government will not interfere with people's right to worship God. The very fact that the government has ruled to regulate religious practices, indicates that the government has crossed that "Wall of Separation."
http://www.schoolprayerinamerica.info/1separationchurchstate.html

 

[Lance_Iguana]

All I am getting at is this, America was founded on Biblical principles, and that statement by Thomas Jefferson over Separation of Church and State, can be explained, below.


Today, many Americans think that the First Amendment says "Separation of Church and State." The Courts and the media will often refer to a ruling as being in violation of the "Separation of Church and State." A recent national poll showed that 69% of Americans believe that the First Amendment says "Separation of Church and State." You may be surprised to learn that these words do not appear in the First Amendment or anywhere else in the Constitution!1 Here is what the First Amendment actually does say.

The First Amendment :

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

So where did the words "Separation of Church and State." come from? They can be traced back to a letter that Thomas Jefferson wrote back in 1802. In October 1801, the Danbury Baptist Association of Connecticut wrote to President Jefferson, and in their letter they voiced some concerns about Religious Freedom. On January 1, 1802 Jefferson wrote a letter to them in which he added the phrase "Separation of Church and State." When you read the full letter, you will understand that Jefferson was simply underscoring the First Amendment as a guardian of the peoples religious freedom from government interference. Here is an excerpt from Jefferson's letter. . .

The very first line is the statement. The government can't use or discriminate religion. The government can't use religion as a sole reason to force people to do anything. With that line the government can't force us to obey the Bible, but if a person wants to, they have the right to.

"I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between church and State." Read the full text of Jefferson's letter to the Danbury Baptist Association ..

Looks like he is saying exactly what I said in the above response. We have the freedom to believe in what we want without the government telling us what to believe.

Jefferson simply quotes the First Amendment then uses a metaphor, the "wall", to separate the government from interfering with religious practice. Notice that the First Amendment puts Restrictions only on the Government, not the People! The Warren Court re-interpreted the First Amendment thus putting the restrictions on the People! Today the government can stop you from Praying in school, reading the Bible in school, showing the Ten Commandments in school, or have religious displays at Christmas. This is quite different from the wall Jefferson envisioned, protecting the people from government interference with Religious practice.[/qute] no the government can't stop you from praying in school or reading the Bible. The government can't have it as mandatory reading, class or school lead prayer, or posting symbols endorsed by the school because that would be the government ( schools are government owned) endorsing a religion. The school kids aren't reading any other religious text, and the School libraries still carry Bibles, Q'ran's, Bodhidharma's, Etc. Social studies Classes, Philosophy courses, History courses can still talk about the Bible and its relavence, just not endorse it. When I was in high school ( 2 years ago, we had a Bible lit class and a philosophy class that went into Christianity)

[quote="Lewis W":qjtkunge]When Thomas Jefferson wrote his letter to the Danbury Baptist Association he never intended the words "Separation of Church and State" to be taken out of context and used as a substitute for the First Amendment, but for all practical purposes is what the courts have done.

No, the courts are taken the first line literally. The government ( schools, court houses, etc.) can't endorse or favor any religion.

If actions speak stronger then words, it is interesting to note that 3 days after Jefferson wrote those words, he attended church in the largest congregation in North America at the time. This church held its weekly worship services on government property, in the House Chambers of the U.S. Capital Building. The wall of separation applies everywhere in the country even on government property , without government interference. This is how it is written in the Constitution, this is how Thomas Jefferson understood it from his letter and actions, and this is how the men who wrote the Constitution practiced it.

he did it on his free time. No one is arguing what a man or women can do in their free time, or what they believe.

"The metaphor of a wall of separation is bad history and worse law. It has made a positive chaos out of court rulings. It should be explicitly abandoned."Chief Justice of the U.S. Supreme Court, William Rehnquist

Think about this, why would W. Rehnquist say this? Could it not be possible, that he wanted religion to step in and fuel a personal agenda of his?

Also notice that there are two parts to the First Amendment that refer to religion: the establishment clause2 and the free exercise clause3. Today much is said about the establishment clause but there is very little mention of the free exercise clause.

No one is questioning it. Well accept a few Republicans. People in our nation have many different religions, that is why this is a big talking point. People want to have their own religions, but don't' want other religions telling them how to run their own belief systems. Would you like having to submit to Islamic or Shinto laws as a Christian?

While the words "Separation of Church and State" do not appear in the U.S.A. Constitution, they do appear in the constitution of the former U.S.S.R. Communist State.

And? Don't draw false correlations. Trying to sugest "socialism" is a bad move. Also like to mention that the USSR under Stalin never made it communism. They never made it past the republic stage. Notice how we are a republic and they where a republic. Communism is where the community runs the country and there is no need for a leader. Stalin never left office, they stayed a Socialst Republic until the Wall fell.

At the very heart of Jefferson's idea "Wall of Separation", is the notion that the government will not interfere with people's right to worship God. The very fact that the government has ruled to regulate religious practices, indicates that the government has crossed that "Wall of Separation."

http://www.schoolprayerinamerica.info/1separationchurchstate.html

[/quote:qjtkunge]NO, the Government is upholding the freedoms of all the religions in this nation. Our nation let Christianity gain allot of power that it should have never gained. Now that the Government is trying to get back to being independent of religion.

There are no laws saying you can't have a belief in Christianity, just that the government can't give you guys any more benefits then any other belief system.

You want Bibles read openly by a Teacher, then all religious text must be read by a teachers. You want the court house to have a display a copy of the 3 pillars of Islam, the Laws of Moses, The 3 truths of Buddhism, etc.

Its easier to respect all religions and not show any symbols, then it is to show all. If one symbol is shown, then tax payer money is being used to favor a single belief, when the first sentence of the First amendment says the government can't. ;)

 

[Aero_Hudson]

The wording is clear as well as the interpretation...

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

This prohibits a Theocracy of any kind or any governmental preferential treatment towards religion or lack their of. The government is intended to be secular. It might be inspired by Christian principles but that doesn't make it a Christian nation. Star Wars was inspired by Lord of the Rings but alas, Star Wars is not Lord of the Rings.

Bottom line is that I have the right as a citizen to not be influenced by my government in the matters of religion. I choose what I worship, if anything, how and when, not my government.

 

[Lewis]

For the last time, that was just a letter by Jefferson, why does everybody keep missing that ? And even though that letter was explained, you cats still only see what you want to, so talk away. Because for right now, I have nothing more to say. You cats have made up minds, so do and say as you please.

 

[Lance_Iguana]

For the last time, that was just a letter by Jefferson, why does everybody keep missing that ? And even though that letter was explained, you cats still only see what you want to, so talk away. Because for right now, I have nothing more to say. You cats have made up minds, so do and say as you please.

Lewis, I answered all your points, not just the letter. The letter is still relevant since it gives clarification. I'm only trying to discuss the letter alongside the first amendment.

I was hoping we could then go further into discussion from there.

 

[Lewis]

Lance there is no such thing as, separation of church and state, that is the only point that I was trying to convey

 

[Lance_Iguana]

Lance there is no such thing as, separation of church and state, that is the only point that I was trying to convey

I then refuted that. Since this is a discussion board, I was hoping to delve into deeper discussion. If you didn't' want discussion or refutation of a statement, why post?

 

[Lewis]

Lance sometimes, you just don't feel like it, and you should be able to understand that.

 

[Aero_Hudson]

I will say it again...the wording in the First Amendment is very clear. I will ask what is not clear about what it says?