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This is really going to make a lot of folks mad.....

G

Georges

Guest
Is it possible that Paul (or his intellectual descendents) borrowed from the Mystery Religion of Mithraism in creating their own brand of Christianity? If Paul was all things to all people, did he use Mithraic concepts to promote Christian ideas? Read the following, then do the research to verify, and…….think for yourself. How many practices that are described below as practiced in Mithraism can be found in today’s Christian Church? How did this happen? What can be done about it?

Who is Mithras?

Mithras was the central savior god of Mithraism, a syncretic Hellenistic mystery religion of male initiates that developed in the Eastern Mediterranean in the 2nd and 1st centuries BC and was practiced in the Roman Empire from the 1st century BC to the 5th century AD.

…The Romanized Greek Plutarch says that in 67 BC a large band of pirates in Ciliciaâ€â€on the southeast coast of Anatolia were practicing "secret rites" of Mithras.

The name Mithras is the Greek masculine form of Mitra, the Persian god who was the mediator between Ahura Mazda and the earth, the guarantor of human contracts, although in Mithraism much was added to the original elements of Mitra.

What is Mithraism?

Mithraism was a Mystery Cult found throughout the Roman Empire before the birth of Christ. Mithraism was Christianity’s main competitor as a religion in the Roman Empire up until the time of Constantine. Its central belief is of a dying and resurrected savior of mankind. Christianity is not the only religion that has a dying and resurrected savior of mankind. Below is a list of other religions in history that have the same concept.

Proposed life-death-rebirth deities

•Akkadian mythology
o Tammuz
o Ishtar
•Dacian mythology
Zalmoxis
•Egyptian mythology
o Isis
o Osiris
•Greek mythology
o Adonis
o Cronus
o Cybele
o Dionysus
o Orpheus
o Persephone
•Hindu mythology
o Trimurti
 Brahma
 Vishnu
 Siva
•Persian mythology
o Mithras
•Phrygian mythology
o Attis
•Roman mythology
o Aeneas
o Bacchus
o Proserpina
•Sumerian mythology
o Damuzi
o Inanna

The Apostle Paul was a citizen of Tarsus….one of the hubs of the Mystery Religion.

"It was in Tarsus that the Mysteries of Mithras had originated, so it would have been unthinkable that Paul would have been unaware of the remarkable similarities we have already explored between Christian doctrines and the teachings of Mithraism. [Footnote:] Tarsus was the capital of Cilicia, where, according to Plutarch [46-125CE], the Mithraic Mysteries were being practiced as early as 67BCE"
"Jesus Mysteries" by Freke & Gandy [more info], p199

Excerpts regarding Mithraism as found in http://www.wikipedia.com:

…Mithraism is best documented in the form it had acquired in the later Roman Empire. It was an initiatory 'mystery religion,' passed from initiate to initiate, like the Eleusinian Mysteries...

…Some commentators surmise that the Mithraists worshipped Mithras as the mediator between Man and the supreme God of the upper and nether world. Other commentators, inspired by James Frazer's theories, have additionally labeled Mithras a mystery religion with a life-death-rebirth deity, comparable to Isis, the resurrected Jesus or the Persephone/Demeter cult of the Eleusinian Mysteries.

From the http://www.wikipedia.com article on “Mithraism†is this excerpt on its “similarities to Christianityâ€Â:

…Similarities to Christianity,

..According to Martin A. Larson, in The Story of Christian Origins (1977), Mithraism and Christianity derived from the same sources, originally from the savior cult of Osiris. Mithraism, an established but exclusive sect devoted to social justice, was assimilated by state-sponsored Christianity before being disposed of in name.

Contrasting with their general religious environment, both Christianity and Mithraism prided themselves in brotherhood and organized their members as church congregations. Both religions purified themselves through baptism, and each participated in a similar type of sacrament, bread and wine. Mithra was born in a cave; a cave is likewise the setting for the nativity of Jesus in the widely-read and influential Gospel of James, though not canonical, is the earliest surviving document attesting the veneration of Mary and claiming her continuing virginity. Both nativities were celebrated on December 25th, and each savior was visited by shepherds and Magi. Both Mithraism and Christianity considered Sunday their holy day, despite early Christianity observing the Jewish Sabbath for centuries. Many have noted that the title of Pope (father) is found in Mithraic doctrine and seemingly prohibited in Christian doctrine. The words Peter (rock) and mass (sacrament) have original significance in Mithraism.
…Mithraism and early Christianity considered abstinence, celibacy, and self-control to be among their highest virtues. Both had similar beliefs about the world, destiny, heaven and hell, and the immortality of the soul.

…Both awaited the last judgment and resurrection of the dead. Christ and Mithra were both referred to directly as the "Logos" (Larson 184).

…When inducted into the degree of Leo, he was purified with honey, and baptised, not with water, but with fire, as John the Baptist declared that his successor would baptise. After this second baptism, initiates were considered "participants," and they received the sacrament of bread and wine commemorating Mithra's banquet at the conclusion of his labors (Larson 190).

…They venerated Jesus in Mithraic sun-god fashion, calling him Light of the World or Son (Sun) of Righteousness. Christians also claimed their savior's death was marked by a solar eclipse. Sunday became the primary day of worship, the seven-day week having already been imported as part of the Mithraic cosmology of planetary influences.
…Mithra’s birthday was adopted by Christians in the 4th century A.D. as the birth of Christ (J. Smith 146). Some claimed Mithra's mother was a mortal virgin. Others said Mithra had no mother, but was miraculously born of a female rock, or the petra genetix, conceived by God's lightning (de Riencourt 135). Mithra's birth was witnessed by shepherds and by Magi bearing gifts to his sacred birth-cave of the Rock (J. Smith 146). Mithra's image was buried in a rock tomb, a sacred cave that represented his Mother's womb. This was ritualistically removed each year, and he was said to live again. Mithra’s triumph and ascension to heaven were celebrated during the spring equinox, as during Easter, when the sun rises toward its apogee.
…Mithra performed miracles of raising the dead, healing the sick, making the blind see, the lame walk, and casting out devils. As a Peter, son of the petra (rock), he carried the “keys†to the kingdom of heaven, as St. Peter is said to have the keys to the gates of Heaven (H. Smith 129). Before returning to heaven, Mithra had his Last Supper with his twelve disciples, who represented the twelve signs of the zodiac. In memory, his worshipers partook of a sacramental meal of bread marked with a cross (Hooke 89, Cumont 160). This was one of seven Mithraic sacraments, the models for the Christian seven sacraments (James 250). It was called mized and in Latin missa and in English mass.
…Christian bishops in Rome pre-empted even the Mithraic high priest's title of Pater Patrum, which became Papa, or Pope (H. Smith 252). Mithraism entered into many doctrines of Manichean Christianity and continued to influence its old rival for over a thousand years (Cumont, Oriental 154)). The Mithraic festival of Epiphany, marking the arrival of sun-priests or Magi at the Savior's birthplace, was adopted by the Christian church only as late as 813 A.D. (Brewster 55).

…It is fairly probable that Christianity emphasized common features that attracted Mithra followers, perhaps the crucifix appealed to those Mithra followers who had crosses already branded on their foreheads. In art, the halo was a well-known depiction of Mithra, a true sun god, but which also depicts Christ in a similar way…

My comment below...

Personally, I think Satan is very clever, saturating the world with the other dying and rising savior religions to confuse the real event of the dying and raising of Jesus. I personally think that Paul while growing up in Tarsus was influenced by these Mystery Religions that were very close in parallel with the death and resurrection of Jesus. I also think that Paul used that information fusing it with Judaism to form his theology which has evolved into modern Christianity. Why do I say that? Because Pauline Christianity bears no resemblence to the Christianity (as a sect of Judaism) as practiced by the Church at Jerusalem. Paul may have started out innocently enough, but through the first 4 centuries, the Pauline Church turned into a Frankenstein’s monster….a little paganism here….a little paganism there…..what a mess.

The answer is easy……lets get back to the religious practice of the Disciples at the Church in Jerusalem….Messianic Judaism…..

Sources on Mithraism quoted above are found in the http://www.wikipedia.com article on "Mithraism".
 
I didn't read it all, but very probably the writting that tell you about the mystery religions are written long after Christianity, and it is quite possible that Christianity influanced them. Something to consider.
 
Is it possible that Paul (or his intellectual descendents) borrowed from the Mystery Religion of Mithraism in creating their own brand of Christianity? If Paul was all things to all people, did he use Mithraic concepts to promote Christian ideas? Read the following, then do the research to verify, and…….think for yourself. How many practices that are described below as practiced in Mithraism can be found in today’s Christian Church? How did this happen? What can be done about it?

A better "copycat" is Zoroastrianism....
 
Zoroastrianism clearly has had a large influence on Christianity. There are many aspects of Christianity that were not drawn from Judaism, although that religion was the major predecessor of Christianity. One of the most obvious tenets of Christianity that has its roots in Zoroastrianism is the concept of dualism. The Zoroastrian faith believes in two original spirits; Ahura Mazda, the Eternal and Uncreated, the Wise Lord, and Angra Mainyu, Uncreated but not Eternal, the Evil Spirit. This dualist nature is thought to have come from the fact the people of Zarathustra were invaded by nomads during the time of Zarathustra's life, and that he therefore had very strong sentiments on the nature of good and evil (Flower 56). From this basic concept springs many others, many of which are also found in Christianity. Zoroastrianism has a very clear notion of the concepts of heaven and hell. These were the realities that Ahura Mazda and Angra Mainyu had created for themselves. According to Zoroastrian belief, at the time of death, the dead are led over Chinvat Bridge. This is a bridge shaped like a sword that bridges this world and heaven. If the soul is worthy, then he or she is led across by a beautiful woman. If the soul is unworthy, then he or she is led across by an old hag, and when the soul is halfway across the bridge turns on its edge and the soul topples to hell (Flower 57). Zoroastrianism also teaches of a second judgement. Zoroastrian tradition holds that, after Zarathustra, there will come three more prophets born of a virgin, each of whom will become pregnant after bathing in a lake which preserves "the seed of the prophet" (Traditional 7). The last of these is to be the Saoshyant, or savior, who will bring about the final judgement. At this time, everyone will be resurrected (this is called Ristakhiz; Traditional 7) and judged a second time by Ahura Mazda, and the final battle between good and evil will take place. Some doctrines hold that the wicked will burn eternally in hell, but newer beliefs state that these may be purified in a river of molten metal and allowed to rejoin the new, idyllic Earth that is free of evil (Flower 56). All these are precursors to corresponding beliefs in Christianity. The notion of a savior being born of a virgin is obviously well known, as are the concepts of heaven and hell, judgement at death and also at a later day of Judgement, and the existence of evil. Evil as an independent force was an idea that had its roots in Zoroastrianism, and in particular the terrible events that Christianity holds will be unleashed by evil upon the world are thought to be taken almost directly from Zoroastrianism (Zoroastrianism, 575). In short, Christianity has been very visibly influenced by Zoroastrianism.

Islam has also been profoundly influenced by Zoroastrianism. Indeed, Zarathustra


http://www.everything2.com/index.pl?nod ... nd%20Islam
 
yesha said:
I didn't read it all, but very probably the writting that tell you about the mystery religions are written long after Christianity, and it is quite possible that Christianity influanced them. Something to consider.

Yesha...that's just it...the mystery religions have been around since Babel.....in one form or another....just about every civilization has had a dying god being resurrected as man's savior...long before Christianity evolved. IMO, to set the world up for Christianity (as inherited from Paul)

Yesha, just like in the future as seen in Revelation, Satan copies the Messiah with the false messiah and the future Elijah with the false prophet. Satan is the master deceiver. In Mithraism, it's a perfect vehicle to take Jesus away from Judaism, Mithra born on dec 25, was a pagan holiday before it was turned into a Christian holiday. Mithra (a sun god) worshiped on Sunday before Sunday was converted to a day of Christian worship. The list goes on......
 
Point of the Thread....

Paul was a Hellenist from Tarsus, a hotbed of Mystery Religion.

Paul obviously borrows from Mystery Religion teminology in his gospels.

There is a list of similarities between Mithraism and Christianity (as it developed) that is to long to ignore.

Perhaps Paul used the terminology to bring Gentiles to Christ and as Christianity advanced westward, further Mithratic practices crept into it's religious practices. Can't forget, after the destruction of the Temple, there were no more "Jewish" Christian leaders (like James, or Peter) to combat false theology. The only disciple left of the original 12 was John. The Revelation he recieved from Christ admonishing/exhorting the Churches was directed at repairing the damage Paul had done.
 
Yesha...that's just it...the mystery religions have been around since Babel.....in one form or another....just about every civilization has had a dying god being resurrected as man's savior...long before Christianity evolved. IMO, to set the world up for Christianity (as inherited from Paul)

What is known about the mystery religions is little to nothing.
Most comes from writtings writtens long after Christianity started. It is only speculation to suppose that those beliefs which sound Christian existed before, even if the cult did.
Furthermore, most ties are not very strong at all, they involve putting Christian language into concepts which yield Christian sounding things. There was a time when scholars were enticed by the idea, but since around the 30's the ideas have been put to death. This is nothing Jewish concepts can't explain.

Yesha, just like in the future as seen in Revelation, Satan copies the Messiah with the false messiah and the future Elijah with the false prophet. Satan is the master deceiver. In Mithraism, it's a perfect vehicle to take Jesus away from Judaism, Mithra born on dec 25, was a pagan holiday before it was turned into a Christian holiday. Mithra (a sun god) worshiped on Sunday before Sunday was converted to a day of Christian worship. The list goes on......

Look at the actual writtings that are attributed to these ideas and I'll think in most cases you'll be hard pressed to even see the commonality.
 
To start with, erroneous comments lead few to anger.

Second, Mithraism did NOT originate in Tarsus, (modern Turkey), but more likely, from all evidence that exists, in ancient Persia, (Iran).

Regardless of your comments or those made by uninformed individuals, Paul was nothing short of a Rabatical Jew before his conversion.

What Paul offered was totally in line with that offered by Christ Himself. The difference between the two was that Christ's ministry was very short in comparison with that of Paul's. Plus, Paul's came 'after' Christ had already ascended back to the Father and the Holy Spirit was brought to those that believe.

The RCC could certainly be accurately accused of 'borrowing' from Mithra in it's ritual, but you will find none of 'this' ritual in the teachings of Paul.

You would have been better prepared to offer that Christianity in general was influenced by Mithratic beliefs than trying to accuse Paul of being of this faith previous to his conversion.

Obviously you've been influenced by one or more of the many subversive web sources that try to insinuate that Christianity is bogusly founded and stolen from Mithraism. Been there and done that. Only one that was without Christ in their hearts could even imagine such rubbish. If that's the case here, good luck trying to convince those that 'know' better.

And I am forced to agree with previous comments to this post. There is 'little' actual detail about Mithraism. There are 'some' similarities, but there are also many 'guesses' made by, so called experts, that may have NO foundation whatsoever.

Paul explained who and what he was before his conversion. There is no indication that he would have had ANY knowledge of Mithraism until his trips to Italy. I don't 'know' whether he had or not, but there is NO indication whatsoever.

Speculation is not a 'bad' thing until one starts to imagine or make up the details that they choose to use in their speculation. At that point, on may as well start creating ghosts and aliens in their minds and hearts.

Beware, for there will be those that choose to follow lies, and for this cause, God will offer strong delusion so that those that choose to follow these lies will believe them.

You know, there are still people out there that believe in Big Foot and the Loch Ness Monster too.
 
Why the difference between Paul and the Apostles....HMMM let me see.

Paul from Tarsus...a hotbed of Mystery Religion, Stoicism, and Gnosticism.

Disciples from Israel.....a hotbed of Judaism.

Paul promotes Freedom from Torah......

Disciples promote Torah observance......

Only Paul receives a vision of Christ, and gets his instructions.......Never knew anything about Christ when he was in Jerusalem studying under Gamaliel?

The Disciples (at least 12 of them) lived with Jesus, knew him, and been taught by him personally.....

Paul may have started out with good intentions...(which I am beginning to doubt), but certainly his message has been corrupted by the Hellenist Church fathers as evident by the drastic split in Jerusalem Church and Pauline Church theology.
 
Georges said:
Why the difference between Paul and the Apostles....HMMM let me see.

Paul from Tarsus...a hotbed of Mystery Religion, Stoicism, and Gnosticism.

Disciples from Israel.....a hotbed of Judaism.

Paul promotes Freedom from Torah......

Disciples promote Torah observance......

Only Paul receives a vision of Christ, and gets his instructions.......Never knew anything about Christ when he was in Jerusalem studying under Gamaliel?

The Disciples (at least 12 of them) lived with Jesus, knew him, and been taught by him personally.....

Paul may have started out with good intentions...(which I am beginning to doubt), but certainly his message has been corrupted by the Hellenist Church fathers as evident by the drastic split in Jerusalem Church and Pauline Church theology.


hi georges,

somewhere in scriptures, peter mentioned paul. peter seemed to respect and had high regard to paul.

as far as peter was concerned (a jewish disciple and apostle of Christ). paul was ok.

yap! paul was okay to me too.
 
Imagican said:
To start with, erroneous comments lead few to anger.

Nah....people don't like to see Paul picked on......that's been evident in other threads....Heck, I used to be one of them.

Second, Mithraism did NOT originate in Tarsus, (modern Turkey), but more likely, from all evidence that exists, in ancient Persia, (Iran).

I'm in agreement with you there, I was thinking about retracting the one quote stating that. Still it doesn't negate the fact that the whole area was seeped in mystery religion.

Regardless of your comments or those made by uninformed individuals, Paul was nothing short of a Rabatical Jew before his conversion.

That is your opinion...there is a good case about Paul being a Hellenist Jew (obviously) and possibly a Gentile proselyte to Judaism. Paul's words and actions are not becoming a pharisee as he claims to have been. That is another subject for another thread.

What Paul offered was totally in line with that offered by Christ Himself. The difference between the two was that Christ's ministry was very short in comparison with that of Paul's. Plus, Paul's came 'after' Christ had already ascended back to the Father and the Holy Spirit was brought to those that believe.

Let's see....Christ promoted love of God and Torah observence. Paul promotes love of Christ and Torah abrogation. Doesn't sound consistant to me. Paul came after Christ had ascended? If Paul attended a shiva under Gamaliel, he would have been studying in Jerusalem for years....On the contrary, James and Peter taught as Jesus taught...Torah observance...

The RCC could certainly be accurately accused of 'borrowing' from Mithra in it's ritual, but you will find none of 'this' ritual in the teachings of Paul.

Paul's promotion of the eucharist......possibly?

You would have been better prepared to offer that Christianity in general was influenced by Mithratic beliefs than trying to accuse Paul of being of this faith previous to his conversion.

Well....the point of the thread was to make folks aware that there was a big difference in what the Church at Jerusalem taught and what Paul promoted....and why the split.

Obviously you've been influenced by one or more of the many subversive web sources that try to insinuate that Christianity is bogusly founded and stolen from Mithraism.

Yes, I have been influenced by sources outside of Protestant Christianity. If I view evidence that supports a theory, I judge it and either reject it or accept it as possible. I'm suggesting the possiblity that Paul (or his intellectual descendents) crafted Christianity from a blend of Mithraism, Gnositicism, and Judaism. All three ism's found prevelent throughout the Roman Empire, especially in Asia Minor....Real Christianity should be molded after the practices of the Church at Jerusalem as practiced by the Apostles.

Been there and done that. Only one that was without Christ in their hearts could even imagine such rubbish. If that's the case here, good luck trying to convince those that 'know' better.

Not trying to convice anyone.....just trying to learn the truth as much as possible....So far no one has been able to help me see the light the way you do....I must have the evidence to accept Paul. Show me where he is in agreement with the Church at Jerusalem....

And I am forced to agree with previous comments to this post. There is 'little' actual detail about Mithraism. There are 'some' similarities, but there are also many 'guesses' made by, so called experts, that may have NO foundation whatsoever.

Ok...if that works for you....for me it doesn't....as I see it, it is a convienient way out. Too many things Paul says that are inconsistant with being a pharisee or in unison with James and Peter.

Paul explained who and what he was before his conversion. There is no indication that he would have had ANY knowledge of Mithraism until his trips to Italy. I don't 'know' whether he had or not, but there is NO indication whatsoever.

Ima, That's like saying you are from Utah and never heard of the Mormons. Again....Mithraism was a very popular religion throughout the Roman Empire, especially Asia Minor. Do you really think that Paul would come out and say...."I'm a Mithra believer", or imply any knowledge of the practice. As I have said, he may not have had anything to do with Mithraism, but he certainly knew about it and as he said..."He was all things to all Men" as opportunity presented itself...Where was his main missionary target....Asia Minor.

Speculation is not a 'bad' thing until one starts to imagine or make up the details that they choose to use in their speculation. At that point, on may as well start creating ghosts and aliens in their minds and hearts.

Your opinion.....I didn't make up Mithraism, or Gnosticism....I'm just trying to put 2 and 2 together.....Paul doesn't appear to add up. Paul is from an aea seeped in Mystery Religion and Gnosticism....I think the speculation is well founded and needs to be closely looked at.

Beware, for there will be those that choose to follow lies, and for this cause, God will offer strong delusion so that those that choose to follow these lies will believe them.

The Church at Jerusalem, or Pauline Christianity.....which lie should you follow?

You know, there are still people out there that believe in Big Foot and the Loch Ness Monster too.

Yeh....I'm one of those ingnorant people who choose to search for the truth. Just blindly believing what someone tells me without analysing the evidence myself doesn't cut it for me....if it does for you, more power to you.


Some good points there Ima....hang in there..... :bday:
 
George, no, you didn't anger me all with this thread but... I need to move it to the Christianity and other Religions Forum. I will leave a "shadow" copy of the thread in the original Forum.

Interesting topic for sure. 8-)
 
ÃÂoppleganger said:
One of the biggest perponents of Zarathustra was a philosopher called Nietzche. He loved the gospels, but hated pauline teaching. So your argument doesn't fit perceived notions. Paul stayed to himself after his vision for like 13 years. But, the whole fact of the matter is that Paul was to go to the Gentiles. Not gradually accept Gentiles in a converts to a Jewish/Christian religion. Paul doesn't mix metaphors like you say.

I can't comment on Nietzche, heard of him, don't know is work. Mix metaphors? Not sure what you are saying...if you ae commenting on my quote about Paul being all things to all people...he himself stated that....

Paul was going to go to these people and preach as you say but, God told Paul to go to the lost sheep of Isreal.

God told Paul to go to the lost sheep of Israel? Not sure where it says that in my bible...please print the quote...thanks. Jesus in a vision, supposedly confronts Paul.....witnesses? for years Judaism had an aggresive plan to Proselyte gentiles....The apostles would have been ok with that. Why, only Paul to the Gentiles?

On top of that, Paul also visited Spain and Britain. You can find this in the Sinine gospels, called the 28th chapter of Acts which Rome withheld from publication, and was later discovered.

Mithraism and Judaism found through out the extent of the Roman Empire.....

Your argument is weak, and saying Paul was preaching Mithra and not Christ doesn't fit. And I think you all just want to argue for the sake of arguing.

And you're counter is as weak if you think that is what I stated. I suggested Paul was (as evidenced in his gospel concepts) very much influened by the Mystery Religion and Gnosticism. His concepts are far removed from the Jerusalem Church boys concept...That is why he was twice called to the carpet in Jerusalem..to explain his actions.....he was deviating from apostolic principles and they called him to task....

dopp....I'm not arguing with anyone...I'm looking for the truth just like everyone else.....


Dopp....concerning your last statement, feel free not to post....or feel free to post.....Because I take a stance that doesn't agree with the main stream doesn't mean I'm argumentative for the sake of being augmentative...that is not my purpose. My purpose is to develope my belief in a presentable order...
 
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