Thomas Aquinas: Summa Contra Gentiles

[urbanii]

but I must be honest, my main interest and reason for posting is not to dissect the teaching of people like Thomas. With respect, I do not want to spend my time on it.

Then why did you post in this thread? To waste my time? Come on, Thomas isn't that scary, and the quote I posted isn't that dense! You can try it, just read it slowly and post a commentary, it isn't a Catholic apologetics statement, it is just a statement about Christianity, faith and reason. As a Christian entirely removed from any denomination (which I maintain is impossible, even if you are your own denomination...but I digress) I am interested in your response.

It will take you 5 minutes.

 

[francisdesales]

Perhaps you should become a Catholic, because if you, through your studies have missed the meaning of the word church, then I do not know what to tell you.

Where do you get the idea from the Bible that "church" is some invisible and vaguely defined set of ideals that people choose or not choose to believe in? The Church is called out, it is visible. People know where they can find it. Jesus tells us to GO TO IT when there are serious issues. It is a particular community of people on the earth journeying towards eternal life in Christ. It is not an ideal secretly held "under a bushel". There is no definition of "church" that speaks of someone merely agreeing in a moral lifestyle. The Church has particular beliefs (as defined by the Creed) and those who do not hold to them are outside.

At this stage you can basically join anything you want, it would be the same.The Catholics will welcome you with open arms, I promise you.

It is quite fortunate that Cornelius has given permission on this matter...

We always welcome people with open arms, we are the universal church, open to all.

As for the "golden age" of the church, well all I can say is that what they are teaching you is obviously from a human point of view and has not real teaching from the spiritual side. Golden age, from a human point maybe, but a spiritual desert.

As usual, you don't have a clue about what you are talking about when speaking about church history. It is quite interesting how you judge the spiritual well-being of an entire culture without knowing much of anything about them but the tired stereotypes taught by "Jack-chick" types...

I am sure your knowledge comes from the typical stereotypes perpetrated by the Reformers. This continues today. A few months ago, some girls came to my door trying to sell me a book on Church history. Naturally, I was interested, since I enjoy reading history. I opened the book and thumbed through it. I kid you not, the book went from chapter one, ancient history before Constantine, chapter two, Constantine, chapter three, the events leading to the Reformation, c. 1500... From my experience in dealing with converts and those open to Catholicism, I find that my separated brothers have not been taught much history of the Church from 350-1500. It is as if the period of time never existed, or was unworthy of discussion. Naturally, I told the young ladies that their book was missing over 1000 years of Christian history, and thus, had little use on my book shelf, being a ridiculous summation of things Christian...

I find that most of my separated brothers know very little of the Golden Age of Christiandom. If we compare how things were, spiritually, to today, I think Cornelius would have to eat his words... Our culture is far and away more spiritually declining than the period of time from 600-1200.

So my view will not be reflected in your studies at Marian University in Indianapolis you have to go sit alone somewhere with you Bible and then ask the Lord to show you what His heart is. Ask Him to show you the church as He sees it. Then wait and listen.

Naturally. What would the University know compared to you... Being that you are almighty and know all, how could a university possibly compare with your vast wisdom...

This is the big problem with the "church of one" group. Since they think they understand the Scriptures through and through - their interpretations are infallible, of course (being a popette...) - naturally, their wisdom and knowledge of things religious spills over into the secular realm. See how their infallibility and supreme knowledge even moves into knowing about non-biblical matters. Oh, the pride and vanity of the "church of one" people... This is one of the best reasons of remaining within a community of worshippers who follow the Scriptural paradigm of followers of Christ. Being fed by men given the gift of the Spirit for the purposes of our spiritual advancement.

Or, you can join the Catholic Church. After all they say they are THE Church and we all know they cannot be wrong, the Pope is infallible .

Your infalliblilty is more broad than even the Pope's, so look to the log in your own eye, C...
The Pope's infallibility is recognized by the Church, OTHER people. YOUR "infallibility" is self-proclaimed...

:naughty

 

[francisdesales]

no matter how you practice your Christianity you are a member of a denomination. Even if you are a denomination masquerading around as non-denominational. Each of these little churches represents its own denomination individually. The pastor is the Pope. Or, perhaps most pathetically of all, you are a denomination of one, yourself. In which case you are the Pope. Non-Catholic Christians seem very proud of the fact that they are not Papist, yet they all have Popes in their own little tiny world.

Indeed, you are correct. What is sad is that they do not see how they crown themselves as little popes with even more universal power - WHILE speaking about the spiritual decline of Popes and their teachings...

The Pope is very limited in the charism of infallibility. The "church of one" popettes are infallible in practically all matters, to include historical issues...

What is a bit frustrating is trying to make these popettes see that the newest spiritual rage - to claim one is spiritually better off worshiping God their own way in their own bedroom - is just self-justification to continue to worship their own opinions and whims, calling them God's. They think it places themselves beyond the so-called denominational battles. Thus, "I am non-denominational", as if they are absolved or above any of Christianity's past or present problems.

Funny, I don't find any "Me and Jesus and my bible" in the Scriptures...

I sincerely hope the Church is not some abstract notion of one person and their bible. That is depressing and I believe it goes against Christ's description of His Church (a city set on a hill cannot be hidden).

I think one would be hard pressed to find ANY Scriptures to support that notion...

St. Paul is very clear about whom he writes to, specific communities with specific beliefs. He is not writing self-help books and "do-it-yourself paths to God".

Finally, if you don't believe that the lives of St. Francis, St. Dominic, St. Bonaventure, St. Louis, St. Thomas, St. Albert the Great, etc etc etc are indications of vibrant Christianity than I don't know what is. And they were all around in this era. The Church may have been at the height of her earthly power, and there was corruption, but she was producing some of the most outstanding Christians since the apostolic age...thus it was a golden age for Christendom, and for Christian Saints.

Some people like to focus on a few negatives while completely ignoring the many more positives. What is amazing is that the people and culture of that era was much more spiritually advanced than we are today. We live in a pagan world, quite frankly. Even so-called Christians are hard-pressed to admit that they are a disciple of Christ wholeheartedly - something that requires a total abandonment of things of the world. These "church of one" cats are far from the likes of St. Francis of Assisi.

Futhermore, few moderns today can match the philosophical depth of the men you mention. They understood the proper place of faith and reason. Now, most appear to follow one extreme at the expense of the other.

God bless you in your studies and continued search for God through the faith and reason He has given to us.

Regards