Thou Shall not Kill Or Murder

[stovebolts]

All,
The mindset of debate has to stop. Please learn how to discuss your differences without sharp words.

The goal of any conversation should be reconcilliation. It should not be to win.

This is the theology forum...

 

[th1b.taylor]

I don't understand your numerous question marks and explanation point if your'e not making a statement with your question; however, I'll answer: I don't see how life in prison helps the soul. Also I don't understand why you're asking me this question if you're not mischaracterizing my points. I don't see the reasoning behind the question. As I've stated before, the longer we live the longer we have to accept Jesus and be saved.

There's nothing political about my arguments. In fact it is just the opposite. I'm simply responding to arguments that are worldly and political. My points are based upon God's Word. What these worldly governments do is their business, not mine nor Christians' main concern as Jesus told us that we belong to a different kingdom. As long as the state doesn't demand me to disobey God then I follow the state.

Please make supporting arguments that prove that I'm twisting scripture. I have studied for years reluctantly setting aside my personal natural desires when it comes to many issues especially this one. It's all of our choices to follow our own desires or to deny ourselves and follow Christ.

I will make one point about our government, yes I see many things that need changing and are very much broken. Christ established His church, which is simply the group of His followers, to be an encouragement and positive influence in this world. This is the organization I focus on and expect to make change and positively affect our society, not the state. They have their own agenda and responsibilities which are different from our Spiritual kingdom.

I have remained on the side lines but you have struck a nerve with this post. You say you have studied for years and I have studied for 28+ years and still, I am sometimes wrong though most of the time I am scripturally correct.

I'll try hard to be straight out without being rude but it appears you are being taught by either a New Covenant. a modern day New Testamennt or possibly a Holiness Teacher. These three classes of teacher/preachers generally do not teach much or not at all from the Jewish/Old Testament, the Bible Yashuah ha'Mashiah taught us Christianity from, making the Old Testament the Root of our Faith.

A tree without roots will fall in a light wind and I tell you that no
Religion has any True Root and all religions, Including this Religion called Christianity.

Yashuah/Jesus came to restore what was lost! That is the clue we must research to discover the answer to what was lost? If we read Genesis 3 and are lead of Ruah/the Holy Spirit it is clear that YHWH/God walked in the cool of the evening and Fellowshipped with Adam/man.

I am very large on Corporate Worship but I also know there is no benefit to my Salvation to go there, benefit my Soul, yes but not my Salvation, at all.
aaaaaaaa
Now to my point. In Genesis 9:6 we find the God of the Old Testament (Yashuah/Jesus) commanding us to kill any murderer because they have sinned in murdering the very image of YHWH.


With a good Thompson or Riley Chain Referenced Bible it can, by following the references in the center column it is easily discerned that the New Testament is easily viewed as a 27 volume of Life Application Commentaries on the Bible Yashuah inspired men to record, the Old Testament.


With that in mind we must remember that all 66 books are of a single context from the first word through the very last one of the Revelation of the Christ. That message is one of Salvation By Faith in our Triune Elohim/God. We must, when we study the Bible, remember John 1:1-3 and Mal. 3â. In reverse order, our Elohim never has and never will change and from the John passage, there is not a single thing Yashuah ha'Mashiah did not create.

The Death Penalty is one of the early Commands we are to follow and we must learn to reconcile the New Testament to the first Scriptures Yashuah authored/inspired and when we do and follow the Spirit's leading, there are times the Death Penalty is the only answer for the Christian.

I pray YHWH endears His Whole Word to your heart.

 

[th1b.taylor]

This is a good example.
Many Christians around the country were rallying behind her but she never received a pardon from the Governor.
The Governor?
George Bush
This is a good example of a man claiming to be a Christian yet allows the killing of a child of God, one he knew was forgiven by God, because it was the politically correct thing to do.
And as he ran for president, how quickly and effectively the Republican Party pushed aside all mention of this from the press.
Politics is no place for a Christian, it is a worldly position for worldly people.

That is an opinion but reading the Bible and understanding the scriptures through the guidance of the Holy Spirit we learn to place our preferences aside and to defer to the recorded Instructions of our Most High Elohim and live according to His Word. GW did that and she herself knew the sentence was only just. She went to Heaven, forgiven of using a Pick-Ax to chop her parents to death, murdering two Images of YHWH!

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

you people are pro kill and pro death
I'm outta here

 

[MarkT]

you people are pro kill and pro death
I'm outta here

Yep. The message we have heard is life not death.

Where does this idea that God orders us to kill come from? Did Jesus say kill everyone who breaks the law, or kill anyone who threatens to kill you? Kill them before they kill you?

I agree God directed men to kill in the past, but we are not called to kill. That's Satan talking saying you have a right to life.

Psalm 11:5
The Lord tests the righteous and the wicked, and his soul hates him that loves violence.

 

[WIP]

I'm closing this thread for some clean-up, which may take a little while. Too many personal opinions about each other flying back and forth and this is not edifying for anyone.

 

[WIP]

Let's try to remember that we are all brothers and sisters in Christ and to treat each other accordingly. Address the topic and not each other or each other's views. There are ways to express our differences of opinion with gentleness and respect.

 

[Razeontherock]

You would think Lot would have stood up for his daughters. But instead he offered up his daughters to be raped by the crowd.

You're claiming this is a good example? Something we are to follow?

 

[Razeontherock]

Christ established His church, which is simply the group of His followers, to be an encouragement and positive influence in this world. This is the organization I focus on and expect to make change and positively affect our society, not the state.

The Church is not going to 'positively affect our society' if we ignore the State.

Also, why ignore the Scriptures furnished?

 

[Jim Parker]

Where does this idea that God orders us to kill come from?

No one has presented such an idea.
Where did you get it from?

Did Jesus say kill everyone who breaks the law,

No He did not neither has anyone suggested that He did.

or kill anyone who threatens to kill you?

Have you read the book of Esther?
Do you know what Purim is?

I agree God directed men to kill in the past, but we are not called to kill.

No one has said that Christians are "called to kill."
You are refuting statements that no one has made.

That's Satan talking saying you have a right to life.

I assume you meant "you have a right to TAKE life."
God gives life.
Satan uses people dedicated to evil to kill other people.
Jhn 8:44 ... the devil,.... was a murderer from the beginning, ...

Jesus told His followers that that they would be persecuted and even killed for their faith. Those who are killed for their faith are called "martyrs."
Those who are killed by a murdering thug are called "victims."

I believe that I have a right to defend myself, my family, mu neighbors, strangers, etc. from being killed by thugs, murderers, rioters, revolutionaries, etc.

I believe that I have a responsibility to defend myself and my nation against such demonic activity which is why I voluntarily served in the US Army from1968 to 1973.

If you don't think you are supposed to defend your wife and children from murders then I suggest that you discuss that view with your wife and get her opinion as to whether she expects you to defend her and her children from thugs.

And your views are between you and God as are mine.

I believe it is my responsibility to defend the defenseless to the extent of my ability to do so even if it might result in my death. I believe that is the ultimate act of love.
Jhn 15:13 Greater love has no one than this, than to lay down one's life for his friends.

 

[Jim Parker]

Christ established His church, which is simply the group of His followers, to be an encouragement and positive influence in this world.

That is not accurate.
While it is true that the Church should be a positive influence on the world, the Church was established to convert the world through the preaching of the Gospel.
Mat 28:19-20a Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you;...

 

[Razeontherock]

you people are pro kill and pro death
I'm outta here

That is either a misunderstanding or a misrepresentation. No one has said any such thing.

Violent crime is a pretty serious sin, and important for any society to stop.

 

[MarkT]

You're claiming this is a good example? Something we are to follow?

He was willing to sacrifice his own flesh and blood to save the two angels from being raped. An example of righteousness. I find it interesting that he didn't take up the sword, not even to defend his own daughters.

 

[th1b.taylor]

No one has presented such an idea.
Where did you get it from?

No He did not neither has anyone suggested that He did.

Have you read the book of Esther?
Do you know what Purim is?


No one has said that Christians are "called to kill."
You are refuting statements that no one has made.

I assume you meant "you have a right to TAKE life."
God gives life.
Satan uses people dedicated to evil to kill other people.
Jhn 8:44 ... the devil,.... was a murderer from the beginning, ...

Jesus told His followers that that they would be persecuted and even killed for their faith. Those who are killed for their faith are called "martyrs."
Those who are killed by a murdering thug are called "victims."

I believe that I have a right to defend myself, my family, mu neighbors, strangers, etc. from being killed by thugs, murderers, rioters, revolutionaries, etc.

I believe that I have a responsibility to defend myself and my nation against such demonic activity which is why I voluntarily served in the US Army from1968 to 1973.

If you don't think you are supposed to defend your wife and children from murders then I suggest that you discuss that view with your wife and get her opinion as to whether she expects you to defend her and her children from thugs.

And your views are between you and God as are mine.

I believe it is my responsibility to defend the defenseless to the extent of my ability to do so even if it might result in my death. I believe that is the ultimate act of love.
Jhn 15:13 Greater love has no one than this, than to lay down one's life for his friends.

The entire premise is invalid from the very beginning. in John 1 we find there is nothing, not a word, not a planet nor any person that can be seen or read that Jesus did not create and therefore it is Yashauh that is seen as the Father, the one Elohim of Ancient Yisrael.

Clearly, He is as state and when in Gen 9:1-6;
And God blessed Noah and his sons and said to them, q“Be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth. 2 rThe fear of you and the dread of you shall be upon every beast of the earth and upon every bird of the heavens, upon everything that creeps on the ground and all the fish of the sea. Into your hand they are delivered. 3 sEvery moving thing that lives shall be food for you. And tas I gave you the green plants, I give you everything. 4 But you shall not eat flesh with its ulife, that is, its blood. 5 And for your lifeblood I will require a reckoning: vfrom every beast I will require it and wfrom man. From his fellow man I will require a reckoning for the life of man.

6 x“Whoever sheds the blood of man,

by man shall his blood be shed,

for God made man in his own image.

Most today deny the truth because they are decieved by the father of lies, Satan, but Yashuah ha'Mashiah has forever been in control and just as He did the creation, He will as the scriptures, rule the earth once more. He has never changed and as He promses, He never will. He is the God, the Elohim of both testaments. (Mal 3:5a)

 

[Razeontherock]

He was willing to sacrifice his own flesh and blood to save the two angels from being raped. An example of righteousness. I find it interesting that he didn't take up the sword, not even to defend his own daughters.

That would be a "yes."

I find it to be one of the easiest mistakes to make, to automatically assume anything in Scripture is presented as a positive role model.

Atheists do that. Jews do not; and this is part of THEIR Scripture, which means we have thousands of years of learning to do from them on the topic.

I wonder how many women feel comforted by your understanding?

 

[MarkT]

No one has presented such an idea.
Where did you get it from?

No He did not neither has anyone suggested that He did.

Have you read the book of Esther?
Do you know what Purim is?


No one has said that Christians are "called to kill."
You are refuting statements that no one has made.

I assume you meant "you have a right to TAKE life."
God gives life.
Satan uses people dedicated to evil to kill other people.
Jhn 8:44 ... the devil,.... was a murderer from the beginning, ...

Jesus told His followers that that they would be persecuted and even killed for their faith. Those who are killed for their faith are called "martyrs."
Those who are killed by a murdering thug are called "victims."

I believe that I have a right to defend myself, my family, mu neighbors, strangers, etc. from being killed by thugs, murderers, rioters, revolutionaries, etc.

I believe that I have a responsibility to defend myself and my nation against such demonic activity which is why I voluntarily served in the US Army from1968 to 1973.

If you don't think you are supposed to defend your wife and children from murders then I suggest that you discuss that view with your wife and get her opinion as to whether she expects you to defend her and her children from thugs.

And your views are between you and God as are mine.

I believe it is my responsibility to defend the defenseless to the extent of my ability to do so even if it might result in my death. I believe that is the ultimate act of love.
Jhn 15:13 Greater love has no one than this, than to lay down one's life for his friends.

The difference between us is I don't think I have the right to kill. You speak of it being your responsibility. So I disagree. We are not called to kill. Our message is life not death. We should not think it right even though our instinct is to kill.

Jesus laid down his life. He didn't lose it in a fight.

 

[MarkT]

That would be a "yes."

I find it to be one of the easiest mistakes to make, to automatically assume anything in Scripture is presented as a positive role model.

Atheists do that. Jews do not; and this is part of THEIR Scripture, which means we have thousands of years of learning to do from them on the topic.

I wonder how many women feel comforted by your understanding?

Not just women but many men will find the truth difficult to bear. But back then it would have been the right of the father to give his daughters away.

But Peter calls him righteous.
2 Peter 2:7
and if he rescued righteous Lot, greatly distressed by the licentiousness of the wicked

So in my view Lot is a positive role model.

I don't agree that the Scriptures belong to the Jews. I would agree they received the law and the prophets belonged to them. But they were cut off so that the Gentiles might enter the kingdom. So I wouldn't expect very many Jews understand the Scriptures.

 

[Jim Parker]

We are not called to kill.

Of course not. I never suggested such a thing.
But neither are we called to stand idly by while innocent people are slaughtered as in the holocaust.
We ARE our brothers keepers and it is a reality that, sometimes, too often, the only way to stop the slaughter of innocents is the use of deadly force.
That's what the book of Esther teaches.

Our message is life not death.

No.
Our message is ETERNAL life, not this temporal life in which we will have tribulation.
You are confusing the two realities.

We should not think it right even though our instinct is to kill.

I have not mentioned instinct and the issue has nothing to do with instinct.
Is it just to stand by and do nothing while innocent people are murdered?
That is the issue.

Jesus laid down his life. He didn't lose it in a fight.

Again you confuse temporal life with eternal life.
Jesus laid down His life in order to take it up again and defeat death thereby giving immortality to all of mankind for all will be resurrected.
That is an entirely different topic which you are confusing with the issue of whether it is just to allow murder to take place when you are able to stop it even if it requires the use of deadly force.

God commanded the death penalty.
Jesus, who is God the Son, did not change that.

 

[MarkT]

Of course not. I never suggested such a thing.
But neither are we called to stand idly by while innocent people are slaughtered as in the holocaust.
We ARE our brothers keepers and it is a reality that, sometimes, too often, the only way to stop the slaughter of innocents is the use of deadly force.
That's what the book of Esther teaches.

No.
Our message is ETERNAL life, not this temporal life in which we will have tribulation.
You are confusing the two realities.

I have not mentioned instinct and the issue has nothing to do with instinct.
Is it just to stand by and do nothing while innocent people are murdered?
That is the issue.

Again you confuse temporal life with eternal life.
Jesus laid down His life in order to take it up again and defeat death thereby giving immortality to all of mankind for all will be resurrected.
That is an entirely different topic which you are confusing with the issue of whether it is just to allow murder to take place when you are able to stop it even if it requires the use of deadly force.

God commanded the death penalty.
Jesus, who is God the Son, did not change that.

Matthew 5:9
“Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God.

Two world wars, Korea, Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan, where does it end? It has to end with us.

 

[WIP]

The difference between us is I don't think I have the right to kill. You speak of it being your responsibility. So I disagree. We are not called to kill. Our message is life not death. We should not think it right even though our instinct is to kill.

Jesus laid down his life. He didn't lose it in a fight.

Jesus laid down his life for a purpose. It was His destiny from the beginning. In fact, if He had fought, it would have been against the Father's will for Him to do so. If a murderer/rapist would break into your home, assault your wife and your daughter(s), and then proceed to rip them apart piece by piece with a butcher knife, are you saying that you would stand by and watch without doing a thing about it? Do you believe said murderer/rapist would be doing God's will?