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Thou Shall not Kill Or Murder

There are also some really important comparisons and contrasts between Lot's "sacrifice" Mark is talking about and Abraham's. The parallel to Cain and Abel is at least as apt, but we need to take this one step at a time ...
 
Razeontherock said:
That's laughable! You may ASK me what I base my ideas on. You may NOT tell me. I hope this distinction is clear?



*sigh*. See the above. You may ASK me what I believe. You may NOT dictate to me (or anyone else) what I believe. I hope this distinction is clear? This has become a tedious, boring excuse for a conversation.



So own your stated position and look your wife in the eye and tell her Christianity means you'd have to helplessly watch her get raped for fear of hurting the poor wittle cwiminal in case he might later repent, and see what she says.

In the meantime the rest of us here have discovered that Scripture says "quit ye like men," and we know what it means. I bet your wife does, too. I bet she doesn't think it means either God miraculously intervenes as in the story of Lot or else it's too bad so sad for her.

You've painted yourself in a corner. You can't have it both ways. If you don't like the ramifications of your stated position, you can rethink a couple details and come up with a godly solution that jibes with the WHOLE of Scripture. Ben Franklin did.
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Let's stick to the facts. Lot offered his daughters, but that only infuriated the men of Sodom. The men of Sodom didn't want Lot's daughters. They wanted the angels of God.

There was the intent to rape Lot and the angels of God. Somehow the defiling nature of a man lying with a man is ignored. The abomination is overlooked. I can't imagine a worse crime than defiling an angel of God in that way.

There seems to be this overarching concern with Lot's daughters who, by the way, were not raped, and his daughters being subject to Lot. An interesting parallel as the Son is subject to the Father.

Lot did not helplessly watch the men of Sodom rape the angels of God. Lot acted, and he was called righteous by Peter, whether you can bear it or not.
 
The Bible says thou shalt not kill. It doesn't say thou shalt not subdue. It doesn't say thou shalt not arrest. Or thou shalt not act to prevent a murder.

I think it is about intent. If you intend to kill, you are breaking the law. You are doing evil. And as Paul said, "For if we sin deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, Heb. 10:26
 
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MarkT said:
Let's stick to the facts. Lot offered his daughters, but that only infuriated the men of Sodom. The men of Sodom didn't want Lot's daughters. They wanted the angels of God.

There was the intent to rape Lot and the angels of God. Somehow the defiling nature of a man lying with a man is ignored. The abomination is overlooked. I can't imagine a worse crime than defiling an angel of God in that way.

There seems to be this overarching concern with Lot's daughters who, by the way, were not raped, and his daughters being subject to Lot. An interesting parallel as the Son is subject to the Father.

Lot did not helplessly watch the men of Sodom rape the angels of God. Lot acted, and he was called righteous by Peter, whether you can bear it or not.
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One thought here. The men of Sodom did not know they desired to rape angels of God. All they knew was that they were other men. Along that line of thought, did Lot know they were angels of God or did he too see them only as other men?
 
MarkT said:
The Bible says thou shalt not kill. It doesn't say thou shalt not subdue. It doesn't say thou shalt not arrest. Or thou shalt not act to prevent a murder.

I think it is about intent. If you intend to kill, you are breaking the law. You are doing evil. And as Paul said, "For if we sin deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, Heb. 10:26
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So, to help me understand where you're coming from, if I attempt to stop the committing of a rape and murder and find myself having to employ deadly force in order to do so, would that be appropriate? Just trying to understand how far you believe we are instructed to go.
 
MarkT said:
Are you serious? I'm saying don't kill and you think that means watching your wife get raped. And you think I'm teaching men to watch. I'm saying we should not kill, but having said that I would probably shoot the bastard if I had a gun. So what? It doesn't make it right. It's your theology that is in question, not mine. You're saying you have the right to kill. What gives you the right to kill?
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The word kill in the Ten Commandments is a missed translation and is from the seventeenth century translation into the English of that day. The Paleo-Hebrew word there is best translated today as murder.

I have killed a number of men, intentionally but have Murdered none. I would have gleefully executed the VC that cut the wombs out of the Nuns and the teenage schoolgirls in the 1968 Tet Offensive and I still would today as a Christian.


The world is evil as are every one of us and if the scriptures are read through, this Anti-Gun Sentiment is unscriptural, period. Yashuah ha'Mashiah instructed His Disciples to arm themselves with the greatest and most deadly weapon of the day. What is a sword used for in that day? It was used for the same purpose my M-60 Machine Gun on the sides of my Helicopter were used for... to make the Evil People stop what they were doing and to leave the Good People to live. It did this by killing them, not murdering, just killing or maiming them for ungodly actions. Your arguments do not stand when more than the 27 Commentaries are studied.
 
MarkT said:
Lot did not helplessly watch the men of Sodom rape the angels of God. Lot acted, and he was called righteous by Peter, whether you can bear it or not.
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You are completely missing the point of the story, which has already been pointed out to you. Neither are you owning your position as it affects your wife. (and children) This conversation cannot take place in any meaningful way without their informed input.

You're also making horrible assumptions about what Peter said, as well as about what Scripture as a whole has to say about it.
 
MarkT said:
The Bible says thou shalt not kill. It doesn't say thou shalt not subdue. It doesn't say thou shalt not arrest. Or thou shalt not act to prevent a murder.

I think it is about intent. If you intend to kill, you are breaking the law. You are doing evil. And as Paul said, "For if we sin deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, Heb. 10:26
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Nowhere does the Bible say thou shalt not kill. Poor translation leading to eisegesis is not solid Rock.

And you still need to re-read the OP.
 
WIP said:
One thought here. The men of Sodom did not know they desired to rape angels of God. All they knew was that they were other men. Along that line of thought, did Lot know they were angels of God or did he too see them only as other men?
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Good question. I think Lot knew in his heart, in a spiritual sense, that they were not ordinary men because when he saw them he bowed down to them and he called them 'lords'. And I think the men of Sodom knew it too.. that they were not ordinary men.
 
Razeontherock said:
Nowhere does the Bible say thou shalt not kill. Poor translation leading to eisegesis is not solid Rock.

And you still need to re-read the OP.
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Get yourself an RSV.

Ex. 20:13 You shall not kill. Mt. 5:21 You shall not kill. Mt. 19:18 You shall not kill Mark 10:19 Do not kill RSV
 
WIP said:
I agree with your assertion about Lot but can you point to where in Scripture you are arriving at the above? I don't see it.
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Just from the fact that every man in Sodom, young and old, came out to sexually know the angels, tells me this was not something that happened every day. The Bible says all people of Sodom to the last man surrounded Lot's house. This was unusual. This was not something they did every night. Something told them the angels were special men.
 
MarkT said:
Just from the fact that every man in Sodom, young and old, came out to sexually know the angels, tells me this was not something that happened every day. The Bible says all people of Sodom to the last man surrounded Lot's house. This was unusual. This was not something they did every night. Something told them the angels were special men.
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They probably didn't pick a house every night to do this but I suspect it was more because of the newbies in town. I don't see how Scripture even hints that they had a clue about who it was they were looking to assault. Maybe we're better off not injecting our own personal "thoughts" into the Scriptures but take them for what they're worth.

edit: I would propose that if the town's men suspected the visitors were angels from God, the last thing they would do is assault them sexually. Their actions seem to suggest just the opposite, that they had no clue.
 
WIP said:
They probably didn't pick a house every night to do this but I suspect it was more because of the newbies in town. I don't see how Scripture even hints that they had a clue about who it was they were looking to assault. Maybe we're better off not injecting our own personal "thoughts" into the Scriptures but take them for what they're worth.

edit: I would propose that if the town's men suspected the visitors were angels from God, the last thing they would do is assault them sexually. Their actions seem to suggest just the opposite, that they had no clue.
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The Bible makes a point of saying every man, young and old, came out to know the angels. All the people to the last man surrounded Lot's house. I don't believe the entire city would have come out just because the angels were new in town.

Something compelled them to go out that night. I wouldn't say they knew the angels were angels. I only said they knew, (in a spiritual sense) that they were not ordinary men.

To argue that they would not have assaulted them if they knew they were angels is to assume the men of Sodom feared God. But there's no evidence of that. So I can't say I know they would not have assaulted the angels if they knew they were angels.
 
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MarkT said:
The Bible makes a point of saying every man, young and old, came out to know the angels. All the people to the last man surrounded Lot's house. I don't believe the entire city would have come out just because the angels were new in town.

Something compelled them to go out that night. I wouldn't say they knew the angels were angels. I only said they knew, (in a spiritual sense) that they were not ordinary men.

To argue that they would not have assaulted them if they knew they were angels is to assume the men of Sodom feared God. But there's no evidence of that. So I can't say I know they would not have assaulted the angels if they knew they were angels.
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Can you point to anywhere in Scripture where anyone (human) encountered an angel of God and did not respond with fear, trembling, awe, or reverence? I can't think of any.
 
MarkT said:
Good question. I think Lot knew in his heart, in a spiritual sense, that they were not ordinary men because when he saw them he bowed down to them and he called them 'lords'. And I think the men of Sodom knew it too.. that they were not ordinary men.
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You're completely ignoring the cultural context.
 
MarkT said:
Get yourself an RSV.

Ex. 20:13 You shall not kill. Mt. 5:21 You shall not kill. Mt. 19:18 You shall not kill Mark 10:19 Do not kill RSV
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This is insulting, and highly uninformed. That's a really bad combination.

RSV is the first version I read. That has nothing to do with what Scripture says, seeing as it was not originally written in English.
 
WIP said:
So, to help me understand where you're coming from, if I attempt to stop the committing of a rape and murder and find myself having to employ deadly force in order to do so, would that be appropriate? Just trying to understand how far you believe we are instructed to go.
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How many times have you used deadly force to stop a rape and murder? So why do you ask?

Who am I to say what's appropriate? Do you really want to find out what's appropriate? It's pretty well known that man is evil and he will kill. So pray that you never find yourself in a situation where you have to use deadly force. Pray you don't fall into the hands of the living God, because the judgment is sever.
 
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