Three Questions

[for_his_glory]

Sorry for labeling you, but I find it fascinating that you are Pre-trib and Amill! How very odd. You are indeed peculiar to hold to both views at the same time. To me the two views are in conflict with one another and are not compatible, so I find it unheard of to be able to hold to two such conflicting views. All Pre-Tribbers that I have met in my life time were either historical premill or the most common and traditional would be Dispensational premill. I honestly find that to be fascinating and interesting I might add that someone holds to pretrib and Amillennialism. Either way makes no difference to me because all in due time, things will happen in ways we never thought. At least that is what I am learning as end times prophecy along with the NWO are progressing, so it should be interesting in its own proper time the revealing of events taking place and unfolding at the right time of course. This will be the what ends the end conflict lol. I know I would love a rapture before your guys’s version of the GT that I don’t ascribe to.
Wouldn’t you say it’s better to be safe than sorry? I know God can protect people from anything and everything as he did with Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego?

God protected them on the earth, they never left, neither did Noah and his family, nor did Lot, not even Moses! He even says that in

John 17:15

15My prayer is not that you take them out of the world but that you protect them from the evil one. 16They are not of the world, even as I am not of it. 17Sanctify them byd the truth; your word is truth. 18As you sent me into the world, I have sent them into the world. 19For them I sanctify myself, that they too may be truly sanctified.

I truly believe that the GT is for Christians to go thru the refining process. I believe we are in the early stages of it now and my mind is absolutely made up about it and it is very unlikely of changing anytime soon. As in the days of Noah and Soddom and Gomorrah. I refuse to be in denial of where we are at now regarding a timeline. Like I said, it sure would be nice for us to escape everything. None of Jesus’ apostles were that lucky. I won’t complain if it does happen, however, it’s just not consistent with scripture. One final judgement, Satan is destroyed once and for all, a new heaven and a new earth is created, death was defeated and we finally get to live with Jesus and be with him for eternity. A life free from sin, pain, and no more tears.

From what I have seen with my own two eyes leads me to believe that it is extremely selfish and self centered to think that the west is some great and special people to escape to heaven while so many unfortunate souls, even now as we speak are being slaughtered like you would not believe because all the fake news is controlled. Go to bestgore.com if you can tolerate seeing people being killed in the most horrific ways possible. Why you ask would I visit such a site? Curiousity of course. I indeed traumatized myself so I was told and I also desensitized myself to the most brutally, ruthlessly without mercy people are being beheaded, beaten to death, stoned to death, burned alive, being tied to the trunk of a vehicle and drving with people trailing behind, stabbings, shootings, you name it, it is happening and most don’t know what is happening in some other places of the world which would make the conflict between Israells and the arabs look like childs play.
But unfortunately the only way to see the brutalities taking place across the world is by those who commit these heinous acts, record them and upload them to the internet. I don’t actually recommend anyone going to that site, but in order to try and make a vaild point as to why I don’t subscribe to Pre-trib theology. That is why.

I don't believe in a pretrib, post-trib or amillenium. Let me try to nut shell it and for me this is nut shelling it, LOL

The word Rapture is not found in scripture as scripture calls it being caught up at the last trump, meaning the seventh trumpet of God, 1 Corinthians 15:51-58; 1Thessalonians 4:13-18, is explained in these verses if you read them for what they say. Rev 14:6-20 is the precursor for the catching up of the saints that makes up the true body of Christ. This is separating the wheat from the tares or in other words saints from sinners as sinners being those who have taken the mark of the beast in Rev 13. Christ is sending the angels to separate the wheat from the tares to protect His own in safety from the seven vial judgments that will take place, Rev 15:1-8; 16:1-21.

After mystery Babylon is revealed and then destroyed, Rev Chapters 17, 18, heaven rejoices her destruction as the beast and false prophet are cast into the lake of fire. It is not until we read in Rev 19 of Christ second coming as we, His Bride, have prepared ourselves, those in the grave and we that are still alive, to be caught up together to the clouds and given our new glorified bodies as we are arrayed in fine linen, clean and white then meet Christ in the air, 1Thessalonians 4:13-18. We are then joined to our Groom (Jesus) for the marriage supper (union) of the Lamb and His Bride. Fine linen means we are now arrayed in Gods righteousness.

Rev Chapters 19, 20 we the saints of God then come down to earth with Him as Jesus plants His feet on the Mount of Olives, Zechariah 14:4, to fight the final battle as He smites the nations and now rules over them. Jesus then binds Satan for a time (I don’t believe in a literal 1000 years, but only being symbolic in numbering) as then he will be loosed for awhile to try and attack the saints of God that are encamped in Gods protection. Jesus will then cast Satan into the lake of fire with the beast and the false prophet that has caused a great falling away, 2Thessalonians 2:3. Then comes Gods final judgment on those who have rejected Christ and they are then cast into the lake of fire for their names were not found written in the Lambs Book of Life, Rev Chapter 20. Heaven and earth are restored and the New Jerusalem is ushered down and we are with the Lord for eternity.
Reference:
Genesis Chapter 49; Deuteronomy 31:28-30; Jeremiah 30:18-24; Daniel 12:1-4; Matthew 24:21-31; 25:31-33; John 6:37-40; Revelation 14:11-16
Reference to symbolic numbering of 1000:
Deuteronomy 7:9; 1Chronicles 16:15; Psalms 50:10; 90:4; 105:8 Ecc 6:6; 7:28; Daniel 5:1; 2Peter 3:8.

 

[for_his_glory]

Oh no, I can’t edit and add to my post. I forgot to mention the only two people who haven’t died is Elijah and Enoch whom I believe them to be the two witnesses, why you wonder? Well, I will tell you why because of Hebrews 9:27

27And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

Enoch and Elijah haven’t died yet astonishingly. If I remember correctly, it is Elijah who went up in a fire tornado or whirlwind? And Enoch walked with God and was taken.

2 Kings 2:11 for Elijah and Genesis 5:24 for Enoch.
The two witnesses are killed and then resurrected and then they are killed and resurrected. They had to have never died. Revelation 11:7-13

Zechariah 4:1-6; 4:11-14 explains that these two witnesses in Rev 11:3-12 are the word of God in all power and might and the Holy Spirit which is the oil that is poured out on those who God anoints with His Holy Spirit

Enoch, Moses, Abraham and Elijah were not taken up to the third Heaven as some teach as when they were seen (not Enoch or Abraham) of Peter, James and John in Matthew 17:1-9 it was only a transfiguration like a vision that they saw Jesus transfigured as was Moses and Elijah. There is no one in the third heaven except God, Jesus and the angels, John 3:13. Everyone that has ever died is asleep in their grave and when Christ returns they will hear His voice as He calls all of them to come forth, they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation, John 5:28, 29. It is only our spirit/breath/soul that goes back to God who gave it, Genesis 2:7; Ecc 12:7.

Gen 5:24 And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.

Hebrews 11:5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

Does not say Enoch was taken up to heaven, but that he was only translated that he should not see death and that he was not found. Should not see death means since Enoch walked with God he would not see the second death, Rev 20:6, but only that of the first death, Hebrews 9:27, as all his days were three hundred and sixty as he died, but no one knows where.

2 Kings 2:11 And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven. (Heaven here means atmosphere)

Elijah, having ascended into the air by a whirlwind was carried away out of sight beyond the horizon. Several years after he was taken away King Jehoram received a letter from him some years later. Regardless of the exact number of years there came writing to Jehoram from Elijah the prophet, saying..." (2Chron 21:12). Now the wickedness of Jehoram, for which he was being rebuked in the letter, took place after Elijah was taken away, yet the letter speaks of these things as past events, and the punishment to come upon him as yet future. So the idea of some, that Elijah wrote the letter before he was removed by the whirlwind, is proved wrong.

 

[for_his_glory]

Hi Sister for_his_glory, I think it was you that brought forth the fact of Joh 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven. May I ask who you think was in Paradise, and not in heaven until Jesus made the way open? Do you read where Paul says in 2Co 12:3-4 And I knew a man caught up into paradise . . . How'd they get there, or do you think that is future too?

Created angels are being preached to?

Exactly. Now that wasn't too hard, was it? Now for the purpose of clarifying Jesus' angel's position in heaven, who was it. Do you think it occured after all future judgment? Thanks.

I believe paradise and heaven to be the same as it would be paradise if we were in heaven within the glory of the Lord, but what Jesus says in John 3:13 is pretty clear.

These men that Paul was talking about where it says out of the body means they were still in their physical bodies, but yet also in the Spirit (slain in the Spirit) like that of Paul's conversion on the road to Damascus and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven and he fell to the earth, and heard a voice speak to him which was Jesus, Acts 9:1-9.

I've had this same experience also where I fell to the ground and the was a light that shined around me and I heard the voice of Jesus speak to me. It's hard to understand if you have never experienced it.

Like I said, these angels that were created by God are those who Jesus went to preach to in 1 Peter 3:19, Jude 1:6. It wasn't that Jesus was preaching the good news to them, but that He was preaching to them that death has been defeated, Death is swallowed up in victory, 1 Corinthians 15:54.

The question wasn't hard to answer, I just missed where you asked it. Not sure what you mean by Jesus angel's position in heaven. This angel was sent by Jesus to reveal all Jesus gave to him to speak to John. How could it be after all future judgement as judgement comes in the end of days. I'm really not understanding what you are asking?

 

[Eugene]

The question wasn't hard to answer, I just missed where you asked it. Not sure what you mean by Jesus angel's position in heaven. This angel was sent by Jesus to reveal all Jesus gave to him to speak to John.

I reckon the better question would have been for me to ask you for Jesus' angel's identity. What I take from my discussion with you is that none of mankind will be in heaven prior to the end of days. I also assume that you believe angels are in heaven even now?

How could it be after all future judgement as judgement comes in the end of days. I'm really not understanding what you are asking?

Are these following scriptures fulfilled before the end of time?
Rev 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
Rev 19:12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
Rev 19:13 And He was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

Dear sister, does the following scriptures occur prior to the end result of humanity before the Great White Throne occurs? Who is in heaven at this time? Is it only Jesus? Jn 3:13.
Rev 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
And then Rev 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Can this happen in view of Jn 3:13?

I believe paradise and heaven to be the same as it would be paradise if we were in heaven within the glory of the Lord, but what Jesus says in John 3:13 is pretty clear.

I read your theory of the thief not actually going to paradise until the future, and then you saying that Jesus went to preach to angels in prison before going to our Father in heaven? You said "Like I said, these angels that were created by God are those who Jesus went to preach to in 1 Peter 3:19." I don't see anything suggesting that angels were those of 1Pe 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. Is God really comparing created angels with saved mankind here?
May I ask who you think those of Abraham's bosom were, and where they were before Jesus died and made a place for them in heaven?

 

[for_his_glory]

I reckon the better question would have been for me to ask you for Jesus' angel's identity. What I take from my discussion with you is that none of mankind will be in heaven prior to the end of days. I also assume that you believe angels are in heaven even now?

Are these following scriptures fulfilled before the end of time?
Rev 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
Rev 19:12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
Rev 19:13 And He was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

Dear sister, does the following scriptures occur prior to the end result of humanity before the Great White Throne occurs? Who is in heaven at this time? Is it only Jesus? Jn 3:13.
Rev 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
And then Rev 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Can this happen in view of Jn 3:13?

I read your theory of the thief not actually going to paradise until the future, and then you saying that Jesus went to preach to angels in prison before going to our Father in heaven? You said "Like I said, these angels that were created by God are those who Jesus went to preach to in 1 Peter 3:19." I don't see anything suggesting that angels were those of 1Pe 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. Is God really comparing created angels with saved mankind here?
May I ask who you think those of Abraham's bosom were, and where they were before Jesus died and made a place for them in heaven?

Does it say anywhere what this angels position would be other than for this moment being a revealing angel that Jesus sends down. It's not Jesus' angel, but Gods angel who is given instruction by God through that of Jesus who sends the angel to John.

I can't get past John 3:13, was Jesus lying here, I don't think so as I have to believe what He said, not what others try to make it out to mean something else as it says what it says. Why wouldn't there be angels in the third heaven which is the Spiritual realm of God who sits on the throne. Where else would they be until Christ returns.

I believe all things in Rev 19 happens quickly in a twinkling of an eye at the last day which includes the White Throne Judgment, 1 Corinthians 15:51, 52; John 5:28, 29; John 6:39, 40.

I don't believe a 1000 years is literal, but only symbolic in its numbering like that of Deuteronomy 7:9; 1Chronicles 16:15; Psalms 50:10; 90:4; 105:8 Ecc 6:6; 7:28; Daniel 5:1; 2Peter 3:8.

I couldn't find any scripture on delivering all paradise into heaven with Him. Do you have scripture on that?

In post #47 Ephesians 8:9 was a typo as it should have been Ephesians 4:9-12. There is no chapter 8. I caught another mistake I made saying "Ephesians 8:9 (4:9) says before Jesus ascended He first descended into the lower parts of the earth as in going there to preach to the spirits there in prison". I was in error as lower parts only means the grave/Tomb Jesus was laid in. I should never try to think when I'm tired, . I used 1 Peter 3:19, 20 and forgot to add Jude 1:6 to go with it to show these angels, even though created by God, they kept not their first estate, which would be heaven, but left their habitation to cause havoc on earth. This is why God symbolically chained them under darkness as even angels will be judged of God.

Abraham's bosom was a parable about being at rest (in the grave) as we are gathered with Abraham as physically dying in faith and will have eternal life with the Father when Christ returns. There is no more suffering for us when we die and sleep in the grave till Jesus returns.

 

[Eugene]

Hi Sister for_his_glory, and thanks for a great reply. Many times all of us go round and round without ever revealing what we believe through questions such as you have asked. I’ll attempt to develop scripture I hope to clear up differences, one question at a time if possible, although I realize that sometimes two questions will overlap.

Does it say anywhere what this angels position would be other than for this moment being a revealing angel that Jesus sends down. It's not Jesus' angel, but Gods angel who is given instruction by God through that of Jesus who sends the angel to John.

May I ask why you think Jesus sends HIS ANGEL (Rev 1:1) down, and I do suppose you realize that if Jesus did send His angel down that means that the angel would be in heaven wouldn’t it? Do you also realize that an angel is also interpreted as a messenger? Thanks.

 

[for_his_glory]

Hi Sister for_his_glory, and thanks for a great reply. Many times all of us go round and round without ever revealing what we believe through questions such as you have asked. I’ll attempt to develop scripture I hope to clear up differences, one question at a time if possible, although I realize that sometimes two questions will overlap.

May I ask why you think Jesus sends HIS ANGEL (Rev 1:1) down, and I do suppose you realize that if Jesus did send His angel down that means that the angel would be in heaven wouldn’t it? Do you also realize that an angel is also interpreted as a messenger? Thanks.

My use of the word "down" would not be a proper use here as the angel did not literally come to earth, but while still being in heaven John only heard a voice speak to him while being being a prisoner on the isle of Patmos. This angel was a messenger of Christ that spoke to John as he was instructed to write down all these visions the angel would reveal to him and send them out to the seven Churches in Asia.

 

[Eugene]

This angel was a messenger of Christ that spoke to John as he was instructed to write down all these visions the angel would reveal to him and send them out to the seven Churches in Asia.

Good. Was the angel one of God's created angels, or human in your opinion? I would have you also consider what it is that I assume you think that John was left back on Patmos instead of being transported as it were to the Lord's Day?

 

[for_his_glory]

Good. Was the angel one of God's created angels, or human in your opinion? I would have you also consider what it is that I assume you think that John was left back on Patmos instead of being transported as it were to the Lord's Day?

All angels are created by God as spirit beings, but I believe God gives them human form at time for His purpose of ministry.

Quick story on that. I was sitting on the front porch a few years ago and this guy walked by with a nap sack and all he owned on his back. He stopped and we talked for awhile and I noticed he had a Bible sticking out of his bag. He told me his story how traveled all over and he had to bathed himself and his clothes in the river. He said the thing he missed the most was taking a hot shower. Now I normally would not do this as my husband was at work, but there was just something about him I trusted so I invited him in to take a shower and I washed his clothes for him. Then I invited him to stay for supper as my husband would be home soon and I wanted him to meet this guy. Before he left I put some things together for him and gave him some money and he thanked us and went on his way.

About a year later I was sitting on the porch and he came back. We were getting ready to go to a revival and asked him if he wanted to go and he accepted. During the revival I went to introduce him to the Pastor. Now this man was standing right beside me and when I turned around to introduce him he was gone. In the area we were at I would have seen him walking in any direction, but there was no sight of him. I turned to my husband and told him I think we entertained and angel and i believe that with all my heart.

Now to your other question.

It only says John was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, but has no reference to what day of the week it was and even though many think it was the Sabbath day even that can not be confirmed, but only speculation. IMO it was just the day the Lord wanted all this revealed to John so he could write to the seven Churches in Asia before he died as I believe he was in his 90's when he was a prisoner. It also says John was in the Spirit and mentions nothing about being translated or physically taken up to heaven and then brought back down to earth as he was a prisoner on the isle of Patmos and most likely chained or behind locked doors. Being in the Spirit is like being in a trance as some call it being slain in the Spirit like Paul in Acts 9:3,4 and Peter in Acts 10:9-20.

 

[reba]

Slightly off topic sorta.. if you have not seen this give it a try
St. John in Exile
DVD
Dean Jones (Actor), Dan Curtis (Director) Rated:
NR
4.7 out of 5 stars 339 customer reviews

Amazon's Choicefor "dean jones movies on dvd"

 

[for_his_glory]

Slightly off topic sorta.. if you have not seen this give it a try View attachment 5424
St. John in Exile
DVD
Dean Jones (Actor), Dan Curtis (Director) Rated:
NR
4.7 out of 5 stars 339 customer reviews

Amazon's Choicefor "dean jones movies on dvd"

Not off topic as anything about end times goes with the OP. I saw this movie a long time ago or I think it's the same and it was worth watching.

 

[Eugene]

All angels are created by God as spirit beings, but I believe God gives them human form at time for His purpose of ministry.

Do you also believe that created angels are our brethren? Did the created angels ever have to believe on the Lord Jesus to be saved, or redeemed humanity?
BTW, I loved the story of the shower.

Now to your other question.
It only says John was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, but has no reference to what day of the week it was and even though many think it was the Sabbath day even that can not be confirmed, but only speculation.

I have the following excerpt from Gene Hawkins study of Revelation, and it says: "John is not talking about being gathered on the Sabbath, Sunday, or any other select day; he says I was in Spirit on the Lord's Day as opposed to man's day."

IMO it was just the day the Lord wanted all this revealed to John so he could write to the seven Churches in Asia before he died as I believe he was in his 90's when he was a prisoner. It also says John was in the Spirit and mentions nothing about being translated or physically taken up to heaven and then brought back down to earth as he was a prisoner on the isle of Patmos and most likely chained or behind locked doors. Being in the Spirit is like being in a trance as some call it being slain in the Spirit like Paul in Acts 9:3,4 and Peter in Acts 10:9-20.

You said "It also says John was in the Spirit and mentions nothing about being translated or physically taken up to heaven and then brought back down to earth," and I say yes it does. One of the three viewpoints shown John on the Lord's Day was Rev 4:1. . . . a door was opened in heaven . . . Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter. (Future?)
Rev 4:2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.

 

[for_his_glory]

Do you also believe that created angels are our brethren? Did the created angels ever have to believe on the Lord Jesus to be saved, or redeemed humanity?
BTW, I loved the story of the shower.

I have the following excerpt from Gene Hawkins study of Revelation, and it says: "John is not talking about being gathered on the Sabbath, Sunday, or any other select day; he says I was in Spirit on the Lord's Day as opposed to man's day."

You said "It also says John was in the Spirit and mentions nothing about being translated or physically taken up to heaven and then brought back down to earth," and I say yes it does. One of the three viewpoints shown John on the Lord's Day was Rev 4:1. . . . a door was opened in heaven . . . Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter. (Future?)
Rev 4:2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.

Angels are created spirit form and called sons of God as we are created human form called sons of God and both angels and men are messengers of God. I would say in a sense they can be considered our brethren as both angels and man are to be subject unto God, even though like man they can rebel against God as Satan did. Angels already believe in Christ as they are with Him in heaven and unlike man do not have a human sin nature.

I was waiting for you to bring up Rev 4:1

I've never heard of Gene Hawkins. The Lord's day as I believe was just a day of Gods timing as John being the last Apostle he was around 96 when he was a prisoner in Patmos and remained there about two years before his release. God gave him these visions to send to the seven churches in Asia before he died.

After this, meaning after John was in the Spirit he started to envision all that was given to him. In a sense it is like Isaiah in Isaiah 6:1 as he envisioned what he saw and also Paul and Peter as none were actually taken up to heaven, but only in the Spirit. Come up hither just means come closer.

 

[Eugene]

Angels are created spirit form and called sons of God as we are created human form called sons of God and both angels and men are messengers of God. I would say in a sense they can be considered our brethren as both angels and man are to be subject unto God, even though like man they can rebel against God as Satan did. Angels already believe in Christ as they are with Him in heaven and unlike man do not have a human sin nature.

Hi sister, have you noticed the difference between sons of God and Satan?
Job 2:1 Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them to present himself before the LORD.
I don’t know your thoughts of the sons of God and the daughters of men of Gen 6:2-4 if that’s what you’re referring to?

The Lord's day as I believe was just a day of Gods timing as John being the last Apostle he was around 96 when he was a prisoner in Patmos and remained there about two years before his release.

So in the Revelation of Jesus Christ, you don’t believe that Rev 4:1-2 refers to that time Jesus receives His own crown being in heaven, as well as the angel being in heaven also as it showed John things to come?

Come up hither just means come closer.

If we're in Spirit, how much closer can we get?

 

[for_his_glory]

Hi sister, have you noticed the difference between sons of God and Satan?
Job 2:1 Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them to present himself before the LORD.
I don’t know your thoughts of the sons of God and the daughters of men of Gen 6:2-4 if that’s what you’re referring to?

So in the Revelation of Jesus Christ, you don’t believe that Rev 4:1-2 refers to that time Jesus receives His own crown being in heaven, as well as the angel being in heaven also as it showed John things to come?

If we're in Spirit, how much closer can we get?

No, I was not referring sons of God and the daughters of man as that's another topic.

Angels are essentially “ministering spirits,” (Hebrews 1:14) and do not have physical bodies like humans. Jesus declared that “a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have” (Luke 24:37-39).

The Bible classifies some angels as “elect” (1 Timothy 5:21) or “holy” (Matthew 25:31; Mark 8:38). All angels were created to be holy, enjoying the presence of God (Matthew 18:10) and the beauty of heaven (Mark 13:32).

Other angels oppose God under the leadership of Satan (Isaiah 14:12-20) whom even Satan is a created spirit of God that is why God could never destroy him because a spirit can not die. (Matthew 25:41; 2 Peter 2:4; Jude 6; Ephesians 6:12). We often call these types of angels demons for which an everlasting fire is prepared by God for these angels.

Angels have no gender (Matthew 22:30) and are innumerable (Hebrews 12:22). They are incarnate in human form at times (Genesis 18:2-8) for the purpose of ministry. Angels also express emotions (Luke 15:10), are wise (2 Samuel 14:20) and powerful (Psalms 103:20).


I never heard of Jesus receiving a crown in heaven. Do you have scripture that states that? I know we receive crowns and will lay them down at the feet of Jesus.

In Rev 4:1-3 After this means after the seven Churches received the messages from the angels John is in the Spirit (as I explained that) and in his vision he sees a door opened in heaven and a voice saying to come up hither (draw closer to the vision). This is God that is sitting on His throne, which the throne represents all of Gods power and authority. Jesus sits at His right hand as being the arm of God and the Godhead bodily in whom He receives all His power and authority, Isaiah 1:1; John12:38; Colossians 2:9. Jesus has always reigned with God from the foundation of the world, even though Satan caused the nations (kingdoms of God) to sin against God, Isaiah 14:12-15; Ezekiel 28:13-17, those kingdoms will once again be the kingdoms of God and His Son Christ Jesus at the sounding of the seventh trumpet, Rev 11:15. Jesus can not be the one John would see sitting on the throne as in Rev 5:6, 7 John sees a Lamb, which is Jesus, standing in the midst of the throne and Jesus came and took the book out of the right hand of God who is sitting on His throne.

I've been in the Spirit many times, but yet my body was still here on earth and not transported, but my Spirit only caught up to the Spiritual realm of God as His Spiritual realm is universe in the heavenlies that surround us.

BTW, I would think if John was literally transformed to heaven the Roman guards would have been frighten and in fear of what Emperor Domitian would do to them. It wouldn't be until the death of Domitian that John would be released from the isle of Patmos.

 

[Eugene]

I never heard of Jesus receiving a crown in heaven. Do you have scripture that states that? I know we receive crowns and will lay them down at the feet of Jesus.

Heb 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
Rev 14:14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
Rev 19:12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
Rev 19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
I personally think that when Jesus receives His own throne in Rev 4:2, many of these things take place, I reckon it will be sure when He is made King of kings.

In Rev 4:1-3 After this means after the seven Churches received the messages from the angels John is in the Spirit (as I explained that) and in his vision he sees a door opened in heaven and a voice saying to come up hither (draw closer to the vision). This is God that is sitting on His throne, which the throne represents all of Gods power and authority.

I have to disagree with this. We're talking about Jesus here sister.
Rev 4:8 And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come.
Rev 4:9 And when those beasts give glory and honour and thanks to him that sat on the throne, who liveth for ever and ever,
Rev 4:10 The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying,
Rev 4:11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.
Joh 1:3 All things were made by him (Jesus); and without him was not any thing made that was made.
Joh 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
Joh 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

Jesus sits at His right hand as being the arm of God and the Godhead bodily in whom He receives all His power and authority, Isaiah 1:1; John12:38; Colossians 2:9. Jesus has always reigned with God from the foundation of the world, even though Satan caused the nations (kingdoms of God) to sin against God, Isaiah 14:12-15; Ezekiel 28:13-17, those kingdoms will once again be the kingdoms of God and His Son Christ Jesus at the sounding of the seventh trumpet, Rev 11:15. Jesus can not be the one John would see sitting on the throne as in Rev 5:6, 7 John sees a Lamb, which is Jesus, standing in the midst of the throne and Jesus came and took the book out of the right hand of God who is sitting on His throne.

All I can think of at this moment is the question asked in Revelation 5:2. "Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof?"
The answer in Revelation 5:5. "And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof."
And then in Revelation 5:6 the qualifications of Jesus to rule? "And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth."

I've been in the Spirit many times, but yet my body was still here on earth and not transported, but my Spirit only caught up to the Spiritual realm of God

I wouldn't discount that for a moment, but by faith I do not say John in Spirit was anywhere else than in the very presence of God, and seeing things shown him by Jesus' angel as they occurred. BTW, I will get to the point of who Jesus' angel is soon.

 

[for_his_glory]

Thank you for the scriptures about the crowns as I wasn't thinking about them

I know we are talking about Jesus and even if you do not agree with post #75 that's OK as this is how I read it and understand it. Jesus has always been the word of God even before the foundation of the world. He is Lord God almighty in Gods power and authority as He does nothing unless God commands it to be as He speaks the words of God, Isaiah 53:1; John 1:1-5; John 12:44-50.

I still have to believe what Jesus said in John 3:13 as there is no way around that. It was the angel that sisnified everything Jesus spoke to him and was sent as Gods messenger unto John while he was in Patmos as a prisoner. Unless I have missed it I can't find anywhere in scripture where John or anyone else has ever been bodily transferred to the third heaven. Even when I was in the Spirit I was not transferred physically to heaven, but only heard a voice speak to me as John, Peter and Paul did.

 

[Eugene]

I still have to believe what Jesus said in John 3:13 as there is no way around that. It was the angel that sisnified everything Jesus spoke to him and was sent as Gods messenger unto John while he was in Patmos as a prisoner. Unless I have missed it I can't find anywhere in scripture where John or anyone else has ever been bodily transferred to the third heaven.

May I ask you where you think Jesus was when God gave Him the Revelation to show unto His servants, things which must shortly come to pass. Come to think about it, was to shortly come to pass to be two thousand plus years future from that point in time? No, I’m saying that John was caught forward in Spirit to the Lord’s Day, or what is also called the Day of the Lord.

Now Jesus was signifying to His angel what the Father revealed to Him from that coming Lord’s Day, and that to His angel, and the angel showing John three viewpoints from that future time two thousand years plus.
Then we read in Rev 1:7 Behold, He cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see Him. Do you realize who or what these clouds are? Is it possibly the great cloud of witnesses of Heb 12:1.
And then we also read of clouds in 1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

One last question for now, and that is: considering Jn 3:13, would it make any difference if Jesus' angel was human rather than created?

 

[for_his_glory]

I would think Jesus is where He always is at the right hand of God as being the arm of God as He has always been before the foundation of the world.

Things shortly come to pass is Gods timing like that of a 1000 days being as a day with the Lord, Psalms 90:4; 2 Peter 2:8 or symbolic as in Deuteronomy 7:9; 1Chronicles 16:15; Psalms 50:10; 90:4; 105:8 Ecc 6:6; 7:28; Daniel 5:1; 2Peter 3:8.

I still believe the Lord's day or the day of the Lord is just Gods timing with John being the last of all the Apostle's to see and write all things down for all the servants (notice it's plural) of God, in John's day up to the time of Christ return as we are all servants of Christ.

I believe coming in the clouds being the same way He ascended and He will return the same way, Acts 19-11. Clouds mean the first heaven being the atmosphere unlike the other two heavens. Also found in 1Thessalonians 4:17. It will be a witness to all that are alive at His coming whether they be in Christ or reject Christ, but more so to those who have rejected Him as they will see Christ, but it will be to late for them.

I think the Jerusalem Bible makes it clearer that it is an angel, plus John only hears the voice of the angel while being in the Spirit.

Jerusalem Bible - Rev 1:1, 2 This is the revelation given by God To Jesus Christ so that he could tell his servants about the things which are now to take place very soon; he sent his angel to make it known to his servant John.

I have enjoyed our conversation and wish others were as courteous as you have been.

 

[Eugene]

I think the Jerusalem Bible makes it clearer that it is an angel, plus John only hears the voice of the angel while being in the Spirit.

Please consider these following scriptures"
Rev 4:1 . . . Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.
Rev 5:1 And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne . .
Rev 5:2 And I saw a strong angel . . .
Rev 5:6 And I beheld . . .
Rev 6:1 And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard . . .

Jerusalem Bible - Rev 1:1, 2 This is the revelation given by God To Jesus Christ so that he could tell his servants about the things which are now to take place very soon; he sent his angel to make it known to his servant John.

Above you make clear that you think Jesus' angel is a created angel instead of a human messenger also called an angel. That indeed would make someone to think none other than Jesus was now in heaven according to Jn3:13. Good news.
Rev 19:9 And he (Jesus' angel) saith unto me, . . . These are the true sayings of God.
Rev 19:10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.
Rev 22:8 And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things.
Rev 22:9 Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.
Dear Sister for_his_glory, Jesus angel, or His angel of Rev 1:1 is most certainly a human messenger believer, is in heaven all through the events being shown the Apostle John in the book of Revelation. I pray this will open new possibilities in the things God is allowing in our lives.
Blessings in Christ Jesus.