Three Verses which Grace Preachers defend their stand

[jonahmano]

Jonah would prefer to see this formula:
Salvation = grace + faith + works.
There are many "Christians" who prefer this formula rather than:
Salvation = grace + faith

The only problem is that Scripture makes it very clear (Tit 3:5) that salvation is "NOT BY WORKS OF RIGHTEOUSNESS WHICH WE HAVE DONE..."

I have great formula which may prick you a bit but it's good for your edification.

Salvation = Grace + Faith + Obedience to Word

 

[jonahmano]

If you will recall from the Gospels, demons were confronted by Christ all the time. They recognized that He was the Son of God (sooner than humans) (Mt 8:29 and many others). But demons are beyond redemption, so why bring this up? Of course they believe that Jesus is the Son of God. But they are still eternally damned. God designed salvation for human sinners. Not for evil spirits.

Scripture does say that sinners must "obey the Gospel" (2 Thess 1:8; 1 Pet 4:17). What does it mean? See Acts 2:22-41; 16:25-34 for everything it entails. It means believing that Christ died for our sins and rose again for our justification (1 Cor 15:1-4), repentance and conversion (Acts 3:19), and receiving Christ by faith (Jn1:12,13). But Scripture is very clear that we are saved by grace through faith, and not of works (Eph 2:8,9). Water baptism is a step of obedience (Acts 10:48) but does not produce salvation. Salvation is the GIFT of the Holy Spirit (Acts 10:44-47) and the GIFT of eternal life (Rom 6:23).

Now you have to make me understand what is 'works' rather I don't say it as "works" but as "Obedience to the Word"

Salvation is very,very, simple. See above. Those who truly believe on Christ are saved immediately. They don't even have to be baptized (see Lk 23:39-43).

Again you go wrong. Baptism is not optional, same with the breaking of bread. The commandments of God must not be forsaken for convenience. Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and to day and forever so His word.

Those who do not believe the Gospel remain under God's wrath. You already quoted John 3:36. I believe every sinner has at least one opportunity (perhaps multiple opportunities) to be saved. Some respond to the voice of the Holy Spirit, others resist until there is no chance for repentance. Study Pharaoh and Moses, and see how many opportunties God gave him to repent.

How about those people who had just one appointment with Jesus Christ. one fine sunday morning at a grace preacher's church with sugar coating preaching, you just have to believe in Jesus Christ and you are saved and you can't add nothing more. And this man never turned back either to that grace preachers's church nor in his personal prayers because this guy is a very busy guy with his multi-million business and do you expect this guy has chance to stand before the throne of God blameless just because he believed just for one time in his life that Jesus has died for his sins and never spent a single moment for the Lord thereafter?

 

[Malachi]

I have great formula which may prick you a bit but it's good for your edification.
Salvation = Grace + Faith + Obedience to Word

That is certainly your formula, but not God's.
Eternal life is A GIFT my friend. Check out that word "GIFT".

 

[Malachi]

Now you have to make me understand what is 'works' rather I don't say it as "works" but as "Obedience to the Word"

Obedience is absolutely necessary for those who are truly saved.
"Obedience to the Gospel" means repentance + faith (nothing else).
"Obedience for Believers" means all the commandments of Christ.
Don't mix the two.

do you expect this guy has chance to stand before the throne of God blameless just because he believed just for one time in his life that Jesus has died for his sins and never spent a single moment for the Lord thereafter?

Then that was not a genuine conversion. Period. However grace preaching must also be grace preaching. God's GIFT of eternal life to the sinner who repents and believes the Gospel.

 

[JLB]

I just want to prove that it's not just believing but continue to believe till the end of your life and not just believing but also walking in the way of God. Something like discipleship of Jesus Christ. Imitating Christ.

:amen

 

[jonahmano]

That is certainly your formula, but not God's.
Eternal life is A GIFT my friend. Check out that word "GIFT".

Why do you leave out obedience? Every true believer of Christ will be obedient to his master. It's well included in the packaging of salvation. Eternal life is certainly a gift and it's precious and obedience is the key to remain in faith. If you aren't obedient then you haven't believed Jesus Christ in the first place. What was the last commandment of Jesus Christ to make disciples every where and that's certainly Grace + Faith + Obedience and not just Grace + Faith.

"Lord" means ruler, master, one who exercises authority. So to "accept Him as Lord" means to obey His rules and submit to his authority.

When a person claims that one must accept Jesus as Lord to be saved but does not have to obey Jesus to be saved, he contradicts himself and He contradicts Jesus. It is like claiming you are lying in bed and running an Olympic marathon at the same time. One cannot run a marathon lying in bed, and one cannot accept Jesus as Lord without obeying Him.

[Matt. 28:18-20; Luke 12:47; 17:9; 1 Cor. 7:19; Col. 3:23; Heb. 13:20; John 8:31]

To accept Jesus as Savior, you must come to Him to receive the forgiveness of sins. But if He is the Savior, then you must come on His terms. He is the one who determines whom He will save and what has to happen in your life for Him to save you. What does He say about this?

Hebrews 5:9 - He is author (source) of salvation to all that obey Him. To accept His salvation, you must obey. If you believe obedience is not necessary, then you have not accepted the Savior according to the terms He requires in Scripture.

Romans 6:17,18 - To be made free from sin and become servants of righteousness, people in sin must obey the teaching delivered. When were people made free from sin? When they obeyed the teaching. That's what the Savior says. Do you accept Him as Savior? Then you must accept what He says about the conditions of salvation.

1 Peter 1:22,23 - You purify your soul and are born again by obeying the truth. When people claim that obedience is unnecessary, they often emphasize being "born again." But how is a person "born again"? Byobeying the truth, the Word of God. The Bible doctrine of the new birth requires obedience. [Rom. 6:3,4; Gal. 3:27; 2 Cor. 5:17]

 

[jonahmano]

Obedience is absolutely necessary for those who are truly saved.
"Obedience to the Gospel" means repentance + faith (nothing else).
"Obedience for Believers" means all the commandments of Christ. Don't mix the two.

Faith is the key point of our salvation and without faith you can't be saved then why do you stress again and again. Please tell me how can a person work-out his salvation according to you but a person will definitely in danger of straying away without obedience. Please don't confuse the concept. It's prominent to walk in Christ to run your race to the end.


[/QUOTE]Then that was not a genuine conversion. Period. However grace preaching must also be grace preaching. God's GIFT of eternal life to the sinner who repents and believes the Gospel.[/QUOTE]

So you agree that just a namesake confession statement won't do........

 

[childeye]

I know that grace means every thing to me but for grace preachers it means salvation to them. What type of church are we building. Weak, feeble, world centered? or Strong, zealous, Christ centered?

When grace preachers say Salvation is only by grace and all things you do thereafter are optional but I say all things which they think thereafter aren't any works but obedience to God and they are not optional but fuel to sustain in the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, for self growth and also for the edification of Jesus Christ.

1. When you meditate in the word, it's not work, it's obedience to the Word because you believe of what's written in the book and it's faith
2. When you bow your knees before God, it's again not work but it's obedience to the Word because when you need faith to make yourself believe that you are in the presence of God.
3. When you worship in a fellowship, it's again not work but it's obedience to the Word because you believe by faith that Christ is among the two or more people gathered in His name.

And to obey God we need Grace that is His favour and it's wrong teaching that all the above mentioned things which grace preacher teach as works.

I think now you have understood my point.

Yes I think I do. Thanks for elaborating. It seems to be about the two different meanings applied in the bible using the same term, that term being "works". One meaning are "works" meant to achieve righteousness that is not by faith, Ephesians 2:8-9... And those works which are the product of faith, James 2:20.

This has often been a futile debate back and forth with each side speaking about two different things while thinking they are talking about the same thing. Semantics, go figure.

 

[JLB]

Yes I think I do. Thanks for elaborating. It seems to be about the two different meanings applied in the bible using the same term, that term being "works". One meaning are "works" meant to achieve righteousness that is not by faith, Ephesians 2:8-9... And those works which are the product of faith, James 2:20.

This has often been a futile debate back and forth with each side speaking about two different things while thinking they are talking about the same thing. Semantics, go figure.

Yes!

Also please note that unbelief and disobedience are the same Greek word.

Since therefore it remains that some must enter it, and those to whom it was first preached did not enter because of disobedience. Hebrews 4:6 NKJV

Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein , and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief: Hebrews 4:6 KJV


If you don't believe, you won't obey.

You show that you believe by obeying.


JLB

 

[childeye]

Jonah would prefer to see this formula:
Salvation = grace + faith + works.
There are many "Christians" who prefer this formula rather than:
Salvation = grace + faith

The only problem is that Scripture makes it very clear (Tit 3:5) that salvation is "NOT BY WORKS OF RIGHTEOUSNESS WHICH WE HAVE DONE..."

In my view this is just arguing semantics. There are works of faith, James 2:20, which are not works of the law, Galatians 2:16.

 

[childeye]

, the

Yes!

Also please note that unbelief and disobedience are the same Greek word.

Since therefore it remains that some must enter it, and those to whom it was first preached did not enter because of disobedience. Hebrews 4:6 NKJV

Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein , and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief: Hebrews 4:6 KJV


If you don't believe, you won't obey.

You show that you believe by obeying.


JLB

Yes, well it seems to be common sense that those who love others would not do harm to others and would do good things unto others. Doing no harm are works of the law, don't steal, murder, etc... Doing good things to others are works of faith, charity, self sacrifice, etc...

Love is the Eternal Spirit, the vital component that is by grace.

 

[Malachi]

In my view this is just arguing semantics. There are works of faith, James 2:20, which are not works of the law, Galatians 2:16.

Neither works of the law nor works of faith can bring about salvation.
Salvation is purely by grace through faith AND THAT NOT OF YOURSELVES. Works of righteousness after we are saved are the product of salvation, not the cause. And that is the real issue. There are multitudes who believe that they can do something to contribute to or maintain their salvation because they either forget or they deny that salvation is a GIFT of God.

 

[JLB]

Neither works of the law nor works of faith can bring about salvation.
Salvation is purely by grace through faith AND THAT NOT OF YOURSELVES. Works of righteousness after we are saved are the product of salvation, not the cause. And that is the real issue. There are multitudes who believe that they can do something to contribute to or maintain their salvation because they either forget or they deny that salvation is a GIFT of God.

It is only by the works of faith that a person is initially saved.
Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead. James 2:17

If a person does not obey the Gospel, then they will not be saved.

A person must respond with obedience to the Gospel message by repenting and confessing Jesus as Lord.
in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.
2 Thessalonians 1:8


It's is by the works of faith that a person shows he continues to believe.

Furthermore, Jesus said and be baptized.

He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned. Mark 16:16

The way we show we believe is to obey.


JLB

 

[Malachi]

It is only by the works of faith that a person is initially saved.

JLB,
The first thing you need to resolve is whether or not salvation is a GIFT. Could you kindly review that word and its application to salvation? If something is a gift, it is freely given. But the gift must be received by faith and with repentance. Those are NOT works. Those are the RESPONSE to the gift.

I am not disagreeing that the EVIDENCE of genuine salvation is good works (Eph 2:10). But the evidence is not the same as the gift. We need to preach a clear Gospel of grace. Not muddy the waters and confuse sinners.

 

[JLB]

JLB,
The first thing you need to resolve is whether or not salvation is a GIFT. Could you kindly review that word and its application to salvation? If something is a gift, it is freely given. But the gift must be received by faith and with repentance. Those are NOT works. Those are the RESPONSE to the gift.

I am not disagreeing that the EVIDENCE of genuine salvation is good works (Eph 2:10). But the evidence is not the same as the gift. We need to preach a clear Gospel of grace. Not muddy the waters and confuse sinners.

We need to teach a clear word of obedience and not "water down" the Gospel with "one scripture doctrines" that do not contain the whole counsel of God.

If you believe and are baptized, you will be saved.

Repent for the kingdom of God is at hand!

Far to many folks are operating under the deception that they are saved, when in fact they have never repented.

They will be among those who stand on the left hand of Jesus as they hear these words -

41 “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: Matthew 25:41

 

[childeye]

Neither works of the law nor works of faith can bring about salvation.
Salvation is purely by grace through faith AND THAT NOT OF YOURSELVES. Works of righteousness after we are saved are the product of salvation, not the cause. And that is the real issue. There are multitudes who believe that they can do something to contribute to or maintain their salvation because they either forget or they deny that salvation is a GIFT of God.

Pardon my saying, but I still think this remains an issue dealing with semantics. For it could be said that believing in Jesus contains the works of doing what he says. Luke 6:46 KJV.

Having said that, I am not in disagreement with you that salvation is by grace through faith. However if I say I believe in Jesus (have faith), but continue in wicked judgment, then it could be argued in my conscience that I don't really believe in the first place. It could then be wondered if I ever received Christ nor have known God's grace. For to me believing is not about whether I believe Jesus existed. It is about trusting in him so as to do what he says. Notice how grace is used in this verse.
Romans 5:21 KJV
That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.
Consequently, righteousness is a product of grace just as you have pointed out, but if there is unrighteousness, then that grace remains to be seen working in the man.
Thanks for your response.