Hi friends,
The following has been picked up from another thread in a discussion between Vic and me, for greater expansion.
Quote: [By Quasar]
Then Paul reveals WHEN THE RAPTURE WILL TAKE PLACE, in 2 Thes.2:3-8, just prior to when the Antichrist is revealed, who will then kick off the 7 years of tribulation prophecied by Daniel in 9:27. Paul said the Day of the Lord [The tribulation] will not come until the departure [Of the Church], and the man of lawlessness is revealed in 2 Thes.2:3 [The Antichrist], and in vs 7-8, when the restrainer is taken out of the way [The Church] the lawless one [The Antichrist] will be revealed.
Vis's reply:
>>>Sorry, Scripture says no such thing. Daniel, Jesus, Paul and John all place the revealing of antichrist midway in this 70th. Week. The Day of the Lord and the Tribulation are two separate events, not one in the same. Revelation 12 and other passages allude to that. Paul states that the revealing of antichrist can’t take place until the falling away (apostasy) of the church, then the revealing and persecutions, then God’s Wrath.
We can hash this out in another Thread. This is where I see Pre Tribulation misinterpreting and distorting prophetic timelines to support the theory.<<<
To determine exactly what the Scripture teaches us about the timing of the rapture of the church, we need to begin in Daniel 9:24-27, where God has decreed "70 Weeks upon Israel. Each of these 'weeks consist of 7 years each, which consist of a total of 490 years [70 X 7]. After the Messiah/Prince has been 'cut off,' in vs 26, which comes after completing 7 plus 62 of the 70 weeks, or 69 weeks, it totals 483 years, God's timeline stops. Because Israel is driven into a diaspora, scattered throughout the world, and no longer occupy their homeland [Until May14,1948, 1,878 years until returning].
Quote: [By Quasar]
From the first indication in the Scriptures that Israel would go through the tribulation, first mentioned in Jer.30:7, where it is referred to as Jacob's Trouble. And greatly amplified in Dan.9:24-27, where God decreed 70 Weeks of years upon the remaining destiny of Israel for this entire age. 69 Weeks of years have already been fulfilled with the 70th and final Week [7 years] still to be fulfilled, which is also known as the 7 years of tribulation.
Vic's reply:
>>>Glad you see the Gap also, which is the basis of this Thread… to show a gap in Daniel as well as other prophecies. I do not, form a Scriptural point of view, see the entire 70th. Week as Tribulation, in light of the belief some sort of covenant or treaty. I just don’t see Tribulation in the first half of the “weekâ€Â. Persecution AND peace at the same time? It’s got to be one or the other.<<<
According to the Scriptures, the 'he' who 'confirms a covenant with many for one week,' is the same 'he' who brings on the 'abomination of desolation' in the middle of the week, that Jesus refers to in Mt.24:15 - is the Antichrist, who triggers the 'week,' or the seven years of tribulation.
The Antichrist gains power through flattery and deceit and peace throughout the world in the first three and a half years. Then he reveals his true colors in the middle of the week, in what is known as the Great Tribulation [Seen also in Dan.8:23-25 and 11:3639].
The above Scriptures confirm the fact that Israel must go through the seven years of tribulation, 'Jacob's Trouble' [And has nothing to do with the church], as in Jer.30:7.
The Scriptures above have confirmed that the Antichrist enters the scene at the very beginning, and triggers the seven years of tribulation, as seen in Dan.9:27.
In 2 Thes.2:1-8, the KJV is guilty of two mistranslations. The first one is in vs 2, where they translate the text as follows: "That ye be not soon shaken, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us , as the day of 'CHRIST' is present." Virtually every ancient ms reads, "...as the Day of the Lord is present." The Day of the Lord, seen in many places in the Bible, refers to the seven years of tribulation.
The second mistranslation is in vs 3, where they translate the Greek term 'APOSTASIA' as 'FALLING AWAY.' There are different meanings for apostasia, including, falling away.' But it is determined from the contents of the text, as to which of them should be used. The original ms use the term DEPARTURE, because the context of 2 Thes. is about a rapture, and nowhere is there a single word inferring any falling away of the church.
When Jerome translated the Greek Septuagint into the Latin Vulgate in the 4th century, he used the Latin term 'discessio,' meaning departure. Later on, before the KJV was published, there were seven other English translations of the Bible who also used the term, DEPARTURE, instead of falling away, the KJV translators used in in 1611, without any explanation. Therefore 2 Thes.2:3 should read as follows from the original ms:
"Let no man deceive you by any means; for that day [The Day of the Lord] shall not come , except there come the departure [Of the Church] first, and that man of sin [The Antichrist] be revealed, the son of perdition." [Parenthetics mine].
And repeated in vs 7 and 8:
"For the mystery of iniquity doth already work; only he who now hindereth/restrains [The ONE BODY, the Church of Jesus Christ, through ONE SPIRIT, as in 1 Cor.12:12-13] will continue to hinder/restrain UNTIL HE BE TAKEN OUT OF THE WAY." [Vs 7, where the 'he, is the INDWELLING HOLY SPIRIT of the ONE BODY of Christ, HIS CHURCH]. [Parenthetics mine].
"And then shall that wicked one be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of His mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of His coming" [Vs 8].
As the Scriptures reveal, the rapture of the Church takes place prior to the revealing of the Antichrist, whom the Scriptures record, triggers the 70th and final 'week' [7 years] of God's decree upon Israel.
The subject about the rapture of the Church will be covered in another thread.
Blessings,
Quasar
The following has been picked up from another thread in a discussion between Vic and me, for greater expansion.
Quote: [By Quasar]
Then Paul reveals WHEN THE RAPTURE WILL TAKE PLACE, in 2 Thes.2:3-8, just prior to when the Antichrist is revealed, who will then kick off the 7 years of tribulation prophecied by Daniel in 9:27. Paul said the Day of the Lord [The tribulation] will not come until the departure [Of the Church], and the man of lawlessness is revealed in 2 Thes.2:3 [The Antichrist], and in vs 7-8, when the restrainer is taken out of the way [The Church] the lawless one [The Antichrist] will be revealed.
Vis's reply:
>>>Sorry, Scripture says no such thing. Daniel, Jesus, Paul and John all place the revealing of antichrist midway in this 70th. Week. The Day of the Lord and the Tribulation are two separate events, not one in the same. Revelation 12 and other passages allude to that. Paul states that the revealing of antichrist can’t take place until the falling away (apostasy) of the church, then the revealing and persecutions, then God’s Wrath.
We can hash this out in another Thread. This is where I see Pre Tribulation misinterpreting and distorting prophetic timelines to support the theory.<<<
To determine exactly what the Scripture teaches us about the timing of the rapture of the church, we need to begin in Daniel 9:24-27, where God has decreed "70 Weeks upon Israel. Each of these 'weeks consist of 7 years each, which consist of a total of 490 years [70 X 7]. After the Messiah/Prince has been 'cut off,' in vs 26, which comes after completing 7 plus 62 of the 70 weeks, or 69 weeks, it totals 483 years, God's timeline stops. Because Israel is driven into a diaspora, scattered throughout the world, and no longer occupy their homeland [Until May14,1948, 1,878 years until returning].
Quote: [By Quasar]
From the first indication in the Scriptures that Israel would go through the tribulation, first mentioned in Jer.30:7, where it is referred to as Jacob's Trouble. And greatly amplified in Dan.9:24-27, where God decreed 70 Weeks of years upon the remaining destiny of Israel for this entire age. 69 Weeks of years have already been fulfilled with the 70th and final Week [7 years] still to be fulfilled, which is also known as the 7 years of tribulation.
Vic's reply:
>>>Glad you see the Gap also, which is the basis of this Thread… to show a gap in Daniel as well as other prophecies. I do not, form a Scriptural point of view, see the entire 70th. Week as Tribulation, in light of the belief some sort of covenant or treaty. I just don’t see Tribulation in the first half of the “weekâ€Â. Persecution AND peace at the same time? It’s got to be one or the other.<<<
According to the Scriptures, the 'he' who 'confirms a covenant with many for one week,' is the same 'he' who brings on the 'abomination of desolation' in the middle of the week, that Jesus refers to in Mt.24:15 - is the Antichrist, who triggers the 'week,' or the seven years of tribulation.
The Antichrist gains power through flattery and deceit and peace throughout the world in the first three and a half years. Then he reveals his true colors in the middle of the week, in what is known as the Great Tribulation [Seen also in Dan.8:23-25 and 11:3639].
The above Scriptures confirm the fact that Israel must go through the seven years of tribulation, 'Jacob's Trouble' [And has nothing to do with the church], as in Jer.30:7.
The Scriptures above have confirmed that the Antichrist enters the scene at the very beginning, and triggers the seven years of tribulation, as seen in Dan.9:27.
In 2 Thes.2:1-8, the KJV is guilty of two mistranslations. The first one is in vs 2, where they translate the text as follows: "That ye be not soon shaken, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us , as the day of 'CHRIST' is present." Virtually every ancient ms reads, "...as the Day of the Lord is present." The Day of the Lord, seen in many places in the Bible, refers to the seven years of tribulation.
The second mistranslation is in vs 3, where they translate the Greek term 'APOSTASIA' as 'FALLING AWAY.' There are different meanings for apostasia, including, falling away.' But it is determined from the contents of the text, as to which of them should be used. The original ms use the term DEPARTURE, because the context of 2 Thes. is about a rapture, and nowhere is there a single word inferring any falling away of the church.
When Jerome translated the Greek Septuagint into the Latin Vulgate in the 4th century, he used the Latin term 'discessio,' meaning departure. Later on, before the KJV was published, there were seven other English translations of the Bible who also used the term, DEPARTURE, instead of falling away, the KJV translators used in in 1611, without any explanation. Therefore 2 Thes.2:3 should read as follows from the original ms:
"Let no man deceive you by any means; for that day [The Day of the Lord] shall not come , except there come the departure [Of the Church] first, and that man of sin [The Antichrist] be revealed, the son of perdition." [Parenthetics mine].
And repeated in vs 7 and 8:
"For the mystery of iniquity doth already work; only he who now hindereth/restrains [The ONE BODY, the Church of Jesus Christ, through ONE SPIRIT, as in 1 Cor.12:12-13] will continue to hinder/restrain UNTIL HE BE TAKEN OUT OF THE WAY." [Vs 7, where the 'he, is the INDWELLING HOLY SPIRIT of the ONE BODY of Christ, HIS CHURCH]. [Parenthetics mine].
"And then shall that wicked one be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of His mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of His coming" [Vs 8].
As the Scriptures reveal, the rapture of the Church takes place prior to the revealing of the Antichrist, whom the Scriptures record, triggers the 70th and final 'week' [7 years] of God's decree upon Israel.
The subject about the rapture of the Church will be covered in another thread.
Blessings,
Quasar
:
)
: