Timing of the Rapture of the Church

[Guest]

Well, I've looked at those charts someone posted on here a while back ,and listened to their gobblety-gook to describe them, and pretty decided they had no idea what they were talking about.

As far as Scripture goes, most all the same Scripture the 'pre-warth' people use can be used to support the Pre-trib view.

At least with the pre-tribbers I can understand where they are coming from ,as opposed to the pre-wrath people who tend to say "Zis is WAY it vill be, you vill beleive it or else".

 

[Quasar]

The timing of the rapture of the church

Hi guys,

1. The "he" of Dan.9:27 is identified as the Antichrist, at the very beginning of the 70th and final WEEK [7 years] of God's decree upon the destiny of Israel.

2. Jesus revealed to us in Jn.14:2-4 the following:

"In my Father's house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am. You know the way to the place where I am going."

And where is He going? Jn.14:28.

3. "You heard me say, 'I am going away and I am coming back to you. If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I.'"

Therefore, Jesus teaches us He is going to prepare a place for us, and is coming back to take us with Him, so we can be with Him, in heaven with our Father in heaven.

4. The apostle Paul confirms it with the following: 1 Thes;4:15.

"ACCORDING TO THE LORD'S OWN WORD, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep.'"

And where are those of us who have 'fallen asleep' in the Lord? we have gone to be with the Lord instantly following our physical death, as found in 2 Co.5:6-8 and Phil.1:21-23.

"For the Lord Himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first." Vs 16.

"After that, we who are still alive and are left WILL BE CAUGHT UP TOGETHER WITH THEM IN THE CLOUDS TO MEET THE LORD IN THE AIR. And so we will be with the Lord forever." Vs 17.

SO, WHEN IS THIS ALL TO TAKE PLACE?

5. "Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathering to Him, we ask you, brothers, not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report of letter supposed to have come from us, saying that the day of the Lord has already come. 2 Thes.2:1-2.

"Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come, until the rebellion [Or apostasy, or falling away - all of which are mistranslations of the Greek term APOSTASIA for the context of what Paul was talking about - a rapture! When Jerome translated the Greek Sepuagint to the Latin Vulgate in the 4th century, he translated APOSTASIA with the Latin term DISCESSIO, which means to depart, meaning the day of the Lord will not occur until after the DEPARTURE OF THE CHURCH. In addition, there were SEVEN English translations of the Bible who also translated APOSTASIA as DEPARTURE, BEFORE THE KJV WAS EVER PUBLISHED, in 1611] occurs and THE MAN OF LAWLESSNESS [The Antichrist, and the 'he' of Dan.9:27, who triggers the 70th and final WEEK of the destiny of Israel] IS REVEALED, the man doomed to destruction." Vs 3.


From the above, the Scriptures reveal the facts that the rapture of the church will take place, before the Antichrist is revealed, who is the man that triggers the seven years referred to in Jer.30:7 as Jacob's Trouble, the tribulation. The final 3.5 years is generally called the Great Tribulation, consisting of the wrath of God, which has nothing to do with the timing of the rapture.


6. Now just what does Paul mean as to his meaning of the DAY OF THE LORD?

He meant that it begins at the very time the Antichrist is revealed, which the Scriptures record as the 70th and final WEEK [Of 7 years] God has decreed upon Israel; NOT THE CHURCH!

From the Bible Dictionary is the following:

"The day of the Lord [Jehovah] summary: The Day of the Lord is that period of time when God openly intervenes in the affairs of men - in judgement and in blessing. It will begin with the translation of the Church and will terminate with the cleansing of the heavens and the earth preparatory to bringing into being of the new heavens and new earth.

The order of events appears to be: 1. The rapture of the Church just preceding the beginning of the Day of the Lord [1 Thes.4:13-17]; 2. The fulfillment of Daniel's 70th WEEK [Dan.9:27], the latter half of which is the great tribulation [Mt.24:21]. 3. The return of the Lord in glory, to establish His millennial kingdom [Mt.24:29-30]; 4. the destruction of the beast [Antichrist, Rev.19:20], the false prophet, and their armies, which is the "great and terrible"aspect of the Day of the Lord."


From the Scriptures posted above, there is only one time frame prophecied for the timing of the rapture of the Church, it must be pre-trib, as there is no Scriptural support for it to take place any other time.


In His love,

Quasar

 

[Judy]

Quasar,

Who do you say the great mulitude in Rev. 7:9-17?

• Rev. 7:9. After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
  10. And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
  11. And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,
  12. Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.
  13. And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
  14. And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
  15. Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.
  16. They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.
  17. For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes. [/*:m:9aea4]

 

[Quasar]

Who is the Great Multitue of Rev.7 ?

Hi Judy,

First of all, Rev.7:9-17 is one of several parenthetics in the book of Revelation, and was placed in that particular spot for a reason. They all represent the martyrs who will come out of the tribulation, in Rev.20:4-6.

"I answered, 'Sir, you know.' And he said, these are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.'" Rev.7:14.

Consider the question as to how they get there, since the Church has already been translated and is no longer on the earth, as covered in my previous post.

The following is the reason and how the great multitude comes into existence:

Who are the 144,000 ?


First of all, it is necessary to understand the division of the Church and Israel.

According to the Bible, both Jesus and Paul revealed to us, all of us who belong to Jesus, His Church, are to be CAUGHT UP [Raptured] to Him in the clouds of the sky, before the Antichrist is revealed who triggers the seven years of tribulation, that Israel has been decreed to go through.

[In connection with the Church = Jn.14:1-4 and 28; 1 Thes.4:14-18 and 2 Thes.2:1-8]. In connection with Israel = [Dan.9:27, where the person who 'confirms a covenant/treaty' with Israel is the Antichrist, for one 'week,' seven years. 2 Thes.2:3-4 and 8. Also, Mt.24:29-31, Zech.14:4-5].

Jesus said He has two sheep folds, the one He was addressing, Israel, and the 'other one He must also bring,' the Church [Jn.10:16]. He prophecied that they will become one fold with one Shepherd. He also said, many who are first will be last [Israel] and many who are last will be first [The Church] in Mt.19:30.

He meant His Church will be caught up to be with Him before the tribulation and that Israel will go through the tribulation. When Israel finally recognizes Jesus as their Messiah [Zech.12:10] , they will then come into the same sheep fold as the Church and become the one fold, with Jesus being the one Shepherd.


When the Church is Caught Up to be with the Lord in heaven, the Antichrist is revealed and the tribulation begins [Dan.9:27 and 2 Thes.2:3-4 and 8].

When the overview of the tribulation has been completed in Rev.6, covered in the six seals, when the seventh seal that contains the seven trumpet plagues is about to take place, God introduces 144,000 that consists of 12,000 Israelites from twelve of their tribes, that He 'redeemed from the earth' [Rev.14:3]. God sealed them, and they became converted believers in Jesus Christ who will take the place of the Raptured Church. They will be put here to preach the Gospel in the absence of the Church [Rev.7:1-8].

The efforts of their work as evangelists is then revealed in the parenthetic view of the huge multitude seen in heaven [Rev.7:9-17], which represents all of those who will be saved during the tribulation, all the martyrs who participate in the first resurrection of Rev.20:4-6.

When their work is finished, the 144,000 will also be raptured, in Rev.14:1-5. When that happens, the earth will once again be without anyone to preach the Eternal Gospel. So God commissions an angel to do so in Rev.14:6-7.


Therefore, the 144,000 are all converted Israelis who take the place of the Raptured Church to preach the Gospel to all those who will be left behind when Jesus comes to take His Church with Him to our Father in heaven.


Blessings,

Quasar

 

[Judy]

First of all, it is necessary to understand the division of the Church and Israel.

I understand the difference between the Church and Israel.

According to the Bible, both Jesus and Paul revealed to us, all of us who belong to Jesus, His Church, are to be CAUGHT UP [Raptured] to Him in the clouds of the sky, before the Antichrist is revealed who triggers the seven years of tribulation, that Israel has been decreed to go through.

If this is the case and all who belong to Jesus, His Church are raptured before the Antichrist is revealed. Then who do the great multitude belong to?
I do agree that Israel will go through the whole 7 year tribulation. That includes the wrath of Satan on God's people and God's wrath on Satan and an unrepentance, unbelieving world.

The efforts of their work as evangelists is then revealed in the parenthetic view of the huge multitude seen in heaven [Rev.7:9-17], which represents all of those who will be saved during the tribulation, all the martyrs who participate in the first resurrection of Rev.20:4-6.

Ok, then what do you make of what the Lord said here....

• 2Thess. 2:9. Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
  10. And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
  11. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
  12. That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.[/*:m:1090e]

So, if you have Satan decieving the world with great power, signs and lying wonders... And then we have God because the unbelieving world will send them a strong delusion that they will believe the lie of Satan.
Then please tell me how such a great multitude that no one could number be saved?

When their work is finished, the 144,000 will also be raptured, in Rev.14:1-5. When that happens, the earth will once again be without anyone to preach the Eternal Gospel. So God commissions an angel to do so in Rev.14:6-7.

Since when did God never have one person here one earth that didn't believe in him?? Scripture and verse please.

 

[Guest]

Re: The timing of the rapture of the church

From the Bible Dictionary is the following:

"The day of the Lord [Jehovah] summary: The Day of the Lord is that period of time when God openly intervenes in the affairs of men - in judgement and in blessing. It will begin with the translation of the Church and will terminate with the cleansing of the heavens and the earth preparatory to bringing into being of the new heavens and new earth.

Well, that has to be one of the WORST definitions I've seen.

What deist wrote that "dictionary'??

 

[Guest]

One of the common arguements pre-tribbers make is that the Church is not appointed to God's wrath. For the most part, I agree. This is a promise given to the faithful 'Philadelphia' church.

But not all churchs are as faithful as the 'Philadelphia' one. In fact, most of the churchs in Revelation 2 and 3 suffer from some form of apostacy; the exception being Smyrna, which is appointed to suffer persecution ("ye shall have tribulation ten days"...Revealtion 2:10)

This leads me to believe there will be some sort of partial rapture; where the faithful are removed , but the Smyrna church will remain; suffer persecution from both secular and 'religious' authorities, and be either raptured or martyred some time during the tribulation.

Another difference I have with pre-tribbers is I don't necessarily see the Seven seals as part of God's wrath. A close examination of Revelation 6 will reveal that when Christ opens the seals, there really is no judgement or wrath poured out upon the earth. The seals merely set the stage for the coming Trumpet judgements.

But only God knows EXACTLY what will happen

 

[Quasar]

First of all, it is necessary to understand the division of the Church and Israel.

I understand the difference between the Church and Israel.

[quote:4476f]According to the Bible, both Jesus and Paul revealed to us, all of us who belong to Jesus, His Church, are to be CAUGHT UP [Raptured] to Him in the clouds of the sky, before the Antichrist is revealed who triggers the seven years of tribulation, that Israel has been decreed to go through.

If this is the case and all who belong to Jesus, His Church are raptured before the Antichrist is revealed. Then who do the great multitude belong to?
I do agree that Israel will go through the whole 7 year tribulation. That includes the wrath of Satan on God's people and God's wrath on Satan and an unrepentance, unbelieving world.

The efforts of their work as evangelists is then revealed in the parenthetic view of the huge multitude seen in heaven [Rev.7:9-17], which represents all of those who will be saved during the tribulation, all the martyrs who participate in the first resurrection of Rev.20:4-6.

Ok, then what do you make of what the Lord said here....

• 2Thess. 2:9. Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
  10. And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
  11. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
  12. That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.[/*:m:4476f]

So, if you have Satan decieving the world with great power, signs and lying wonders... And then we have God because the unbelieving world will send them a strong delusion that they will believe the lie of Satan.
Then please tell me how such a great multitude that no one could number be saved?

When their work is finished, the 144,000 will also be raptured, in Rev.14:1-5. When that happens, the earth will once again be without anyone to preach the Eternal Gospel. So God commissions an angel to do so in Rev.14:6-7.

Since when did God never have one person here one earth that didn't believe in him?? Scripture and verse please.[/quote:4476f]



My opening remark was directed to all who read my post, not to you only.

You are absolutely right in connection with all who belong to Christ, will be raptured when He returns for us. However, that is not the case with the 144,000. They do not appear on the scene until the sixth seal, just proceding the first trumpet judgement. The Scriptures state they have been redeemed from the earth, suggesting they have come from heaven, in the same way the two witnesses do in Rev.11.

Dr. Dwight Pentacost, one of the Deans at Dallas Theological Seminary made this remark once, "As it was in the miracle of Saul of Tarsus, in the case of the Israelites God places on the earth in Rev.7:1-8, He has performed 144,000 miracles.

On the other hand, I see it in greater detail; beginning with Abraham and the beginnings of the nation of Israel, until the time of Jesus shed blood on the cross, both the righteous and the wicked went to the OT 'holding tank' of Sheol, as Jesus narrated in Lk.16:19-31 about Lazarus and the rich man. See also Ps.49:14-15. The righteous remained there because it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sin, Heb.10:4.

When Jesus died, He went in Spirit to the 'prison' [Sheol], to preach the Gospel to them, all the way back to the time of Noah, 1 Pet.3:18-20. When Jesus ascended into heaven, He took all the righteous ones from Sheol with Him, Eph.4:7-10, fulfilling the prophecy of Ps.68:18. It is from this group I believe God made His selection of the 144,000 from.

Rev.7:9-17 is a parenthetic view of all the martyrs who will come out of the tribulation, who will be saved through the efforts of the 144,000 evangelists. That is why that parenthetic is placed in Revelation where it is. The chronological place for them is in Rev.20:4-6, when the first resurrection takes place, which the Church has no part of [Because they will be raptured before the tribulation begins], as that passage makes very clear, they are all martyrs who did not bear the sign of the beast, the Antichrist.

2 Thes.2:9-12, is a description of the Antichrist, not Satan, beginning with vss 3,4 and 7-8, and it is from one of Paul's epistles, not something the Lord said. As I said, Rev.7:9-17 is one of several PARENTHETICS in Revelation, meaning it is only a view of what happens, not when it actually takes place in the chronology that it will. I have already covered how the great multitude will be saved.


After the Church is raptured, as Jesus has promised us in Jn.14:2-3 and 28, you tell me who will be left on earth who has not rejected Jesus Christ? All of them!

Blessings,

Quasar

 

[Vic C.]

Hi all, if I may backpedal for a moment and talk about the Apostasia:

SO, WHEN IS THIS ALL TO TAKE PLACE?

5. "Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathering to Him, we ask you, brothers, not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report of letter supposed to have come from us, saying that the day of the Lord has already come. 2 Thes.2:1-2.

"Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come, until the rebellion [Or apostasy, or falling away - all of which are mistranslations of the Greek term APOSTASIA for the context of what Paul was talking about - a rapture! When Jerome translated the Greek Sepuagint to the Latin Vulgate in the 4th century, he translated APOSTASIA with the Latin term DISCESSIO, which means to depart, meaning the day of the Lord will not occur until after the DEPARTURE OF THE CHURCH. In addition, there were SEVEN English translations of the Bible who also translated APOSTASIA as DEPARTURE, BEFORE THE KJV WAS EVER PUBLISHED, in 1611] occurs and THE MAN OF LAWLESSNESS [The Antichrist, and the 'he' of Dan.9:27, who triggers the 70th and final WEEK of the destiny of Israel] IS REVEALED, the man doomed to destruction." Vs 3.

It should be noted that the above is an alternate definition of apostasia. One MUST take into consideration that Jesus is expecting a "falling away from sound doctrine" ... Paul does also.

Luke 18:8 I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?

2 Tim 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
2 Tim 4:4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

(oh, there's more that supports a falling away from the Faith in latter days)

Excerpt from http://www.themoorings.org/prophecy/apostasy/apos5.html

When the Day of Christ will begin. This passage is extremely nettlesome to those who believe that the next event on the prophetic timetable is the Rapture. Yet this passage identifies two developments that must come first, before the day of Christ and hence before the rapture that will take place at the beginning of His day. According to Paul, the day of Christ will not come until there is a falling away and the man of sin is revealed (v. 3). "Falling away" is a rendering of the Greek word apostasia. The man of sin is the Antichrist.

Writers on prophecy have skirted this passage in various ways. We will look at how this passage has fared in popular books on the Rapture by E. Schuyler English and John Walvoord.

English's interpretation. English retains the priority of the Rapture in end-time events by assigning apostasia the meaning "departure." This, he says, is the root meaning of the word, although he concedes that the word often denotes a falling away from the truth; that is, "apostasy." According to English, the departure Paul has in mind is the departure of the church at the Rapture, and the meaning of verse 3 is that both the Rapture and the revelation of the Antichrist will come before the Day of Christ .

The chief difficulty in English's interpretation of the verse is that the meaning of a word is determined not by its derivation, but by its usage. Investigation of how apostasia was used in the first century establishes that the word means "apostasy," not "departure." The word means "apostasy" in its only other occurrence in the New Testament. "And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake [literally, 'apostatize from'] Moses" (Acts 21:21) . The word means "apostasy" in every one of its many occurrences in the Septuagint . Every authoritative lexicon defines apostasia as "apostasy" .

Walvoord's interpretation. Walvoord endorses the translation of verse 3 in the NIV. "[That day will not come] until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed." This translation shifts the meaning enough so that Walvoord can claim that these developments will occur not before the Day of Christ, but during the Day of Christ, serving as evidence that the Day of Christ has already begun. In other words, the sense of the verse is that the day of Christ will come only when these other developments come as well (5).

The NIV's subtle reworking of verse 3 distorts the Greek, which clearly says that in relation to the Day of Christ, the apostasy must come "first." It is implied that the revelation of the Antichrist must come first also. "First" is proton, which cannot mean anything else but "first." This word disallows any attempt to make verse 3 say that the apostasy and the revelation of the Antichrist will come during, rather than before, the Day of Christ.

Conclusion. Our study of Scripture must proceed with an unbiased openness to what it is really saying. If we try to make it fit preconceived ideas derived from our teachers or based on our preferences, we will never grasp the whole counsel of God. An honest reading of 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8 altogether overthrows the popular notion that the Rapture will come unheralded by signs. This notion is the usual grounds for denying that Scripture pictures the church in its final hour as riddled with apostasy. Such apostasy, many argue, would be a sign of the approaching Rapture. Yet, in the text under discussion here, Paul counters by saying that the Rapture cannot come until at least two signs appear first, and one is general apostasy in the church.

:end of excerpt

From the above, the Scriptures reveal the facts that the rapture of the church will take place, before the Antichrist is revealed, who is the man that triggers the seven years referred to in Jer.30:7 as Jacob's Trouble, the tribulation. The final 3.5 years is generally called the Great Tribulation, consisting of the wrath of God, which has nothing to do with the timing of the rapture.

6. Now just what does Paul mean as to his meaning of the DAY OF THE LORD?

He meant that it begins at the very time the Antichrist is revealed, which the Scriptures record as the 70th and final WEEK [Of 7 years] God has decreed upon Israel; NOT THE CHURCH!

Some big problems arise here.

Scripture clearly dictates that Antichrist is revealed a midpoint of the week, or in the midst of the week.

I'm not 100% certain, from Scripture, that Jacob's trouble is a future event or an event in Biblical history and it is only mentioned once in Scripture. The Day of the Lord is mentioned several times and is usually described as a terrible "Day" and is kicked off by darkness and gloom and cosmic signs.

Jesus describes these signs as following the Great Tribulation:

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

But before that He says the days of that Tribulation will be cut short.

Let's put it together in a reasonable fashion. If the Great Tribulation and The Day of the Lord are the same, what exactly is it that Jesus is cutting short? There is no indication in Scripture that the final week is to be shortened, so what is happenning here? Again I say, Jesus cuts short this time of Tribulation, then describes events that the OT prophets clearly define as the beginning of the Day of the Lord.

Someone has skewed the timeline and it wasn't Jesus. The biggest problem is assuming the GT and The Day of the Lord are not two completly different events.

 

[Vic C.]

Rev 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

But not all churchs are as faithful as the 'Philadelphia' one. In fact, most of the churchs in Revelation 2 and 3 suffer from some form of apostacy; the exception being Smyrna, which is appointed to suffer persecution ("ye shall have tribulation ten days"...Revealtion 2:10)

Close. They are promised to be kept from the hour of temptation. That "hour" is the time antichrist will be saying, "take the Mark or die!" By no means is the Wrath of God a "temptation".

Amos 5:18 Woe unto you that desire the day of the LORD! to what end is it for you? the day of the LORD is darkness, and not light.

The rest of the post I pretty much agree with.

No, I am not a preterist and yes, I still follow PreWrath.

 

[JM]

A few quotes from history on Rev. 3:10

Barnabas (40-100): "The final stumbling-block (or source of danger) approaches...for the whole [past] time of your faith will profit you nothing, unless now in this wicked time we also withstand coming sources of danger....That the Black One [Antichrist] may find no means of entrance..." (Epistle of Barnabas, 4).

Clement of Rome (40-100): "...the Scripture also bears witness, saying, 'Speedily will He come, and will not tarry'; and, 'The Lord shall suddenly come [Matthew 24:30 coming] to His temple, even the Holy One, for whom ye look'" (I Clement, 23).

Hermas (40-140): "Those, therefore, who continue steadfast, and are put through the fire [of the Great Tribulation that is yet to come], will be purified by means of it....Wherefore cease not speaking these things into the ears of the saints..." (The Pastor of Hermas, Vision 4).

Polycarp (70-167): "He comes as the Judge of the living and the dead" (Epistle to the Philippians, II).

Justin Martyr (100-168): "The man of apostasy [Antichrist], who speaks strange things against the Most High, shall venture to do unlawful deeds on the earth against us the Christians..." (Dialogue With Trypho, 110).

Melito (100-170): "For with all his strength did the adversary assail us, even then giving a foretaste of his activity among us [during the Great Tribulation] which is to be without restraint..." (Discourse on the Resurrection, i, 8).

Irenaeus (140-202): "And they [the ten kings who shall arise] shall lay Babylon waste, and burn her with fire, and shall give their kingdom to the beast, and put the church to flight" (Against Heresies, V, 26).

Tertullian (150-220): "The souls of the martyrs are taught to wait [Rev. 6]...that the beast Antichrist with his false prophet may wage war on the Church of God..." (On the Resurrection of the Flesh, 25).

Hippolytus (160-240): "...the one thousand two hundred and three score days (the half of the week) during which the tyrant is to reign and persecute the Church, which flees from city to city, and seeks concealment in the wilderness among the mountains" (Treatise on Christ and Antichrist, 61).

Cyprian (200-258): "The day of affliction has begun to hang over our heads, and the end of the world and the time of the Antichrist to draw near, so that we must all stand prepared for the battle..." (Epistle, 55, 1).

Victorinus (240-303): "...the times of Antichrist, when all shall be injured" (Commentary on the Apocalypse of the Blessed John, VI, 5).

Lactantius (240-330): "And power will be given him [Antichrist] to desolate the whole earth for forty-two months....When these things shall so happen, then the righteous and the followers of truth shall separate themselves from the wicked, and flee into solitudes" (Divine Institutes, VII, 17).

Athanasius (293-373): "...they have not spared Thy servants, but are preparing the way for Antichrist" (History of the Arians, VIII, 79).

Ephraim the Syrian (306-373): "Nothing remains then, except that the coming of our enemy, Antichrist, appear..." (Sermo Asceticus, I).

Pseudo-Ephraem (4th century?): "...there is not other which remains, except the advent of the wicked one [Antichrist]..." (On the Last Times, the Antichrist etc., 2).

Cyril of Jerusalem (315-386): "The Church declares to thee the things concerning Antichrist before they arrive...it is well that, knowing these things, thou shouldest make thyself ready beforehand" (Catechetical Lectures, 15, 9).

Jerome (340-420): "I told you that Christ would not come unless Antichrist had come before" (Epistle 21).

Chrysostom (345-407): "...the time of Antichrist...will be a sign of the coming of Christ..." (Homilies on First Thessalonians, 9).

Augustine (354-430): "But he who reads this passage [Daniel 12], even half asleep, cannot fail to see that the kingdom of Antichrist shall fiercely, though for a short time, assail the Church..." (The City of God, XX, 23).

Venerable Bede (673-735): "[The Church's triumph will] follow the reign of Antichrist" (The Explanation of the Apocalypse, II, 8).

Bernard of Clairvaux (1090-1153): "There remains only one thing----that the demon of noonday [Antichrist] should appear, to seduce those who remain still in Christ..." (Sermons on the Song of Songs, 33, 16).

Roger Bacon (1214-1274): "...because of future perils [for the Church] in the times of Antichrist..." (Opus Majus, II, p. 634).

John Wycliffe (1320-1384): "Wherefore let us pray to God that he keep us in the hour of temptation, which is coming upon all the world, Rev. iii" (Writings of the Reverend and Learned John Wickliff, D.D., p. 155).

Martin Luther (1483-1546): "[The book of Revelation] is intended as a revelation of things that are to happen in the future, and especially of tribulations and disasters for the Church..." (Works of Martin Luther, VI, p. 481).

William Tyndale (1492-1536): "...antichrist preacheth not Peter's doctrine (which is Christ's gospel)...he compelleth all men with violence of sword" (Greenslade's The Work of William Tindale, p. 127).

Menno Simons (1496-1561): "...He will appear as a triumphant prince and a victorious king to bring judgment. Then will those who persecute us look upon Him..." (Complete Writings..., p. 622).

John Calvin (1509-1564): "...we ought to follow in our inquiries after Antichrist, especially where such pride proceeds to a public desolation of the church" (Institutes, Vol. 2, p. 411).

John Knox (1515-1572): "...the great love of God towards his Church, whom he pleased to forewarn of dangers to come, so many years before they come to pass...to wit, The man of sin, The Antichrist, The Whore of Babylon" (The History of the Reformation..., I, p. 76).

John Fox (1516-1587): "...that second beast prophesied to come in the later time of the Church...to disturb the whole Church of Christ..." (Acts and Monuments, I).

Roger Williams (1603-1683): "Antichrist...hath his prisons, to keep Christ Jesus and his members fast..." (The Bloody Tenent, of Persecution, p. 153).

John Bunyan (1628-1688): "He comes in flaming fire [as Judge] and...the trump of God sounds in the air, the dead to hear his voice..." (The Last Four Things: Of Judgment).

Daniel Whitby (1638-1726): "...after the Fall of Antichrist, there shall be such a glorious State of the Church...so shall this be the Church of Martyrs, and of those who had not received the Mark of the Beast..." (A Paraphrase and Commentary, p. 696).

Increase Mather (1639-1723): "That part of the world [Europe] was to be principally the Seat of the Church of Christ during the Reign of Antichrist" (Ichabod, p. 64).

Matthew Henry (1662-1714): "Those who keep the gospel in a time of peace shall be kept by Christ in an hour of temptation [Revelation 3:10]" (Commentary, VI, p. 1134).

Cotton Mather (1663-1728): "...that New Jerusalem, whereto the Church is to be advanced, when the Mystical Babylon shall be fallen" (The Wonders of the Invisible World, p. 3).

Jonathan Edwards (1703-1758): "...continuance of Antichrist's reign [when the Church is persecuted] did not commence before the year of Christ 479..." (A History of the Work of Redemption, p. 217).

John Wesley (1703-1791): "'The stars shall...fall from heaven,' (Revelation, vi. 13)....And then shall be heard the universal shout...followed by the 'voice of the archangel,'...'and the trumpet of God'...(I Thessalonians iv. 16)." (The Works of the Rev. John Wesley, A.M., Vol. V, p. 173).

George Whitefield (1714-1770): "...'while the bridegroom tarried,' in the space of time which passeth between our Lord's ascension and his coming again to judgment..." (Gillies' Memoirs of Rev. George Whitefield, p. 471).

David Brainerd (1718-1747): "...and I could not but hope, that the time was at hand, when Babylon the great would fall and rise no more" (Memoirs..., p. 326).

Morgan Edwards (1722-1795): "[Antichrist] has hitherto assumed no higher title than 'the vicar general of Christ on earth'..." (Two Academical Exercises etc., p. 20).

John Newton (1725-1807): "'Fear not temptation's fiery day, for I will be thy strength and stay. Thou hast my promise, hold it fast, the trying hour [Revelation 3:10] will soon be past'" (The Works of the Rev. John Newton, Vol. II, p. 152).

Adam Clarke (1762-1832): "We which are alive, and remain...he [Paul] is speaking of the genuine Christians which shall be found on earth when Christ comes to judgment" (Commentary, Vol. VI, p. 550).

Charles G. Finney (1792-1875): "Christ represents it as impossible to deceive the elect. Matt. 24:24. We have seen that the elect unto salvation includes all true christians." (Lectures on Systematic Theology, p. 606).

Charles Hodge (1797-1878): "...the fate of his Church here on earth...is the burden of the Apocalypse" (Systematic Theology, Vol. III, p. 827).

Albert Barnes (1798-1870): "...he will keep them in the future trials that shall come upon the world [Revelation 3:10]" (Notes on the New Testament, p. 94).

George Mueller (1805-1898): "The Scripture declares plainly that the Lord Jesus will not come until the Apostacy shall have taken place, and the man of sin...shall have been revealed..." (Mrs. Mueller's Missionary Tours and Labours, p. 148).

Benjamin W. Newton (1805-1898): "The Secret Rapture was bad enough, but this [John Darby's equally novel idea that the book of Matthew is on 'Jewish' ground instead of 'Church' ground] was worse" (unpublished Fry MS. and F. Roy Coad's Prophetic Developments, p. 29).

R. C. Trench (1807-1886): "...the Philadelphian church...to be kept in temptation, not to be exempted from temptation..." (Seven Churches of Asia, pp. 183-184).

Carl F. Keil (1807-1888): "...the persecution of the last enemy Antichrist against the church of the Lord..." (Biblical Commentary, Vol. XXXIV, p. 503).

Henry Alford (1810-1871): "Christ is on His way to this earth [I Thessalonians 4:17]..." (The New Testament for English Readers, Vol. II, p. 491).

John Lillie (1812-1867): "In his [Antichrist's] days was to be the great----the last----tribulation of the Church" (Second Thessalonians, pp. 537-538).

F. L. Godet (1812-1900): "The gathering of the elect [Matthew24:31]...is mentioned by St. Paul, 1 Thess. 4:16, 17, 2 Thess. 2:1..." (Commentary on Luke, p. 452).

Robert Murray McCheyne (1813-1842): "Christians must have 'great tribulation'; but they come out of it" (Bonar's Memoirs of McCheyne, p. 26).

S. P. Tregelles (1813-1875): "The Scripture teaches the Church to wait for the manifestation of Christ. The secret theory bids us to expect a coming before any such manifestation" (The Hope of Christ's Second Coming, p. 71).

Franz Delitzsch (1813-1890): "...the approaching day is the day of Christ, who comes...for final judgment" (Commentary on Hebrews, Vol. II, p. 183).

C. J. Ellicott (1819-1905): "[I Thessalonians 4:17] 'to meet the Lord,' as He is coming down to earth..." (Commentary on the Thessalonian Epistles, p. 66).

Nathaniel West (1826-1906): "[The Pre-Trib Rapture] is built on a postulate, vicious in logic, violent in exegesis, contrary to experience, repudiated by the early Church, contradicted by the testimony of eighteen hundred years...and condemned by all the standard scholars of every age" (The Apostle Paul and the "Any Moment" Theory, p. 30).

Alexander Maclaren (1826-1910): "He will keep us in the midst of, and also from, the hour of temptation [Revelation 3:10]" (The Epistles of John, Jude and the Book of Revelation, p. 266).

J. H. Thayer (1828-1901): "To keep [Revelation 3:10]:...by guarding, to cause one to escape in safety out of" (A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament, p. 622).

Adolph Saphir (1831-1891): "...the advent of the Messiah...to which both the believing synagogue and the church of the Lord Jesus Christ are looking..." (The Epistle to the Hebrews, Vol. I, p. 96).

M. R. Vincent (1834-1922): "The preposition ['from'] implies, not a keeping from temptation, but a keeping in temptation [Revelation 3:10]..." (Word Studies..., p. 466).

William J. Erdman (1834-1923): "...by the 'saints' seen as future by Daniel and by John are meant 'the Church'..." (Notes on the Book of Revelation, p. 47).

H. Grattan Guinness (1835-1910): "...the Church is on earth during the action of the Apocalypse..." (The Approaching End of the Age, p. 136).

H. B. Swete (1835-1917): "The promise [of Revelation 3:10], as Bede says, is 'not indeed of your being immune from adversity, but of not being overcome by it'" (The Apocalypse of St. John, p. 56).

William G. Moorehead (1836-1914): "...the last days of the Church's deepest humiliation when Antichrist is practicing and prospering (Dan. viii:12)..." (Outline Studies in the New Testament, p. 123).

A. H. Strong (1836-1921): "The final coming of Christ is referred to in: Mat. 24:30...[and] I Thess. 4:16..." (Systematic Theology, p. 567).

Theodor Zahn (1838-1933): "...He will preserve...at the time of the great temptation [Revelation 3:10]..." (Zahn-Kommentar, I, p. 305).

I. T. Beckwith (1843-1936): "The Philadelphians...are promised that they shall be carried in safety through the great trial [Revelation 3:10], they shall not fall" (The Apocalypse of John, p. 484).

Robert Cameron (1845-1922): "The Coming for, and the Coming with, the saints, still persists, although it involves a manifest contradiction, viz., two Second Comings which is an absurdity" (Scriptural Truth About the Lord's Return, p. 16).

B. B. Warfield (1851-1921): "...He shall come again to judgment...to close the dispensation of grace..." (Biblical Doctrines, p. 639).

David Baron (1855-1926): "(Tit. ii. 13), for then the hope as regards the church, and Israel, and the world, will be fully realised" (Visions of Zechariah, p. 323).

Philip Mauro (1859-1952): "...'dispensational teaching' is modernistic in the strictest sense...it first came into existence within the memory of persons now living..." (The Gospel of the Kingdom, p. 8).

A. T. Robertson (1863-1934): "In Rev. 3:10...we seem to have the picture of general temptation with the preservation of the saints" (A Grammar of the Greek New Testament in the Light of Historical Research, p. 596).

R. C. H. Lenski (1864-1936): "...it [Philadelphia] shall be kept untouched and unharmed by the impending dangers [Revelation 3:10]" (The Interpretation of St. John's Revelation, pp. 146-146).

William E. Biederwolf (1867-1939): "Godet, like most pre-millennial expositors, makes no provision for any period between the Lord's coming for His saints and His coming with them..." (The Second Coming Bible, p. 385).

Alexander Reese (1881-1969): "...we quite deliberately reject the dispensational theories, propounded first about 1830..." (The Approaching Advent of Christ, p. 293).

Norman S. MacPherson (1899-1980): "...the view that the Church will not pass into or through the Great Tribulation is based largely upon arbitrary interpretations of obscure passages" (Triumph Through Tribulation, p. 5).

 

[Guest]

I fail to see how ALL those quotes apply to Revelation 3:10

What is your source?

 

[Judy]

After the Church is raptured, as Jesus has promised us in Jn.14:2-3 and 28, you tell me who will be left on earth who has not rejected Jesus Christ? All of them!

Blessings,

Quasar

The efforts of their work as evangelists is then revealed in the parenthetic view of the huge multitude seen in heaven [Rev.7:9-17], which represents all of those who will be saved during the tribulation, all the martyrs who participate in the first resurrection of Rev.20:4-6.

Which is it?

 

[Quasar]

After the Church is raptured, as Jesus has promised us in Jn.14:2-3 and 28, you tell me who will be left on earth who has not rejected Jesus Christ? All of them!

Blessings,

Quasar

[quote:e1eff]The efforts of their work as evangelists is then revealed in the parenthetic view of the huge multitude seen in heaven [Rev.7:9-17], which represents all of those who will be saved during the tribulation, all the martyrs who participate in the first resurrection of Rev.20:4-6.

Which is it?[/quote:e1eff]


Judy,

The question you ask has already been answered. Didn't you see it? 1. The Church is raptured, as promised, in Jn.14:2-3 , 28 and 1 Thes.4:14-18.

No one who belongs to Christ is left here on earth. 2. After half of the tribulation has passed, about three and a half years of it, the 144,000 sealed Israelis are put here on earth just before the seven trumpet judgements begin.

The latter has nothing at all to do with the Church that is gone. But rather, they will be Israeli Jews to preach the Gospel to Israel, who rejected their Messiah, in place of the raptured church.

Blessings,

Quasar

 

[Judy]

After the Church is raptured, as Jesus has promised us in Jn.14:2-3 and 28, you tell me who will be left on earth who has not rejected Jesus Christ? All of them!

Blessings,

Quasar

[quote:866ca]The efforts of their work as evangelists is then revealed in the parenthetic view of the huge multitude seen in heaven [Rev.7:9-17], which represents all of those who will be saved during the tribulation, all the martyrs who participate in the first resurrection of Rev.20:4-6.

Which is it?

Judy,

The question you ask has already been answered. Didn't you see it? 1. The Church is raptured, as promised, in Jn.14:2-3 , 28 and 1 Thes.4:14-18.

No one who belongs to Christ is left here on earth. 2. After half of the tribulation has passed, about three and a half years of it, the 144,000 sealed Israelis are put here on earth just before the seven trumpet judgements begin.

The latter has nothing at all to do with the Church that is gone. But rather, they will be Israeli Jews to preach the Gospel to Israel, who rejected their Messiah, in place of the raptured church.

Blessings,

Quasar[/quote:866ca]

The great multitude is made up of... Rev.7: 9. After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

This doesn't sound like just Jews to me. Not to mention this...v.14 These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

 

[Quasar]

After the Church is raptured, as Jesus has promised us in Jn.14:2-3 and 28, you tell me who will be left on earth who has not rejected Jesus Christ? All of them!

Blessings,

Quasar

[quote:d09ba]The efforts of their work as evangelists is then revealed in the parenthetic view of the huge multitude seen in heaven [Rev.7:9-17], which represents all of those who will be saved during the tribulation, all the martyrs who participate in the first resurrection of Rev.20:4-6.

Which is it?

Judy,

The question you ask has already been answered. Didn't you see it? 1. The Church is raptured, as promised, in Jn.14:2-3 , 28 and 1 Thes.4:14-18.

No one who belongs to Christ is left here on earth. 2. After half of the tribulation has passed, about three and a half years of it, the 144,000 sealed Israelis are put here on earth just before the seven trumpet judgements begin.

The latter has nothing at all to do with the Church that is gone. But rather, they will be Israeli Jews to preach the Gospel to Israel, who rejected their Messiah, in place of the raptured church.

Blessings,

Quasar

The great multitude is made up of... Rev.7: 9. After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

This doesn't sound like just Jews to me. Not to mention this...v.14 These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.[/quote:d09ba]



Judy,

The response I provide you is directly from the Holy Bible, which could not make it any more clear as to who the 144,000 are in Rev.7:1-8. They consist of 12,000 from 12 ot rhe tribes of Israel. [You might note here, that Ephraim and Dan are not mentioned in this list].

With that, if you can support your belief the 144,000 consist of anyone other than the Jews of Israel, please show me your support from the Bible, where mine is coming from. I rest my case.

Blessings,

Quasar

 

[Judy]

Judy,

The response I provide you is directly from the Holy Bible, which could not make it any more clear as to who the 144,000 are in Rev.7:1-8. They consist of 12,000 from 12 ot rhe tribes of Israel. [You might note here, that Ephraim and Dan are not mentioned in this list].

With that, if you can support your belief the 144,000 consist of anyone other than the Jews of Israel, please show me your support from the Bible, where mine is coming from. I rest my case.

Blessings,

Quasar

We are not talking about who the 144,000 are.... I ask you who the great multitude were ?

 

[Vic C.]

I think we have a misunderstanding here.

All who agree that the 144,000 and the great multitude are two completely groups of people, say AYE!

 

[Judy]

Aye!

I need to re-read all that we have been talking about.... : I guess I can't multi-task... either that or we have been arguing who's on first, what's on second.. :

 

[Quasar]

Judy,

The response I provide you is directly from the Holy Bible, which could not make it any more clear as to who the 144,000 are in Rev.7:1-8. They consist of 12,000 from 12 ot rhe tribes of Israel. [You might note here, that Ephraim and Dan are not mentioned in this list].

With that, if you can support your belief the 144,000 consist of anyone other than the Jews of Israel, please show me your support from the Bible, where mine is coming from. I rest my case.

Blessings,

Quasar

We are not talking about who the 144,000 are.... I ask you who the great multitude were ?

Quite right, you did say you did not believe the great multitude of Rev.7:9-17 were all Jews, which is quite right. But we are addressing the issue of the 144,000 also. It is important to remember, all of unbelieving Israel is in that group as well, who did not survive and remain alive, at the second coming of Christ to the earth. My apology, I failed to interpret that part of your post properly.

Blessings,

Quasar