Bible Study Tongues in the Old Testament.

[Dave...]

The gift of tongues ceasing has been gone over already. I wanted to concentrate on the OT aspect of the sign. I don't wish to debate why I believe the sign gift of tongues is not for today. I did that already here.

D

Thread 'A question for those who claim tongues for today.'

Oct 19, 2004

Apart from the primary purpose of tongues, which Paul said was to be a sign to unbelievers (Jews), the secondary uses ( which were necessary so God would not be the author of confusion while the sign was being given ) for tongues serve no benefit above and beyond that which we all can accomplish by regular means. When the sign aspect of tongues is absent, and it is, the secondary uses became expendable.

There is no such sign being given today like we read about in Acts. The churches who claim tongues for today deny it by their actions, they send their missionaries to school to learn...

• Dave...
• Replies: 165
• Forum: Theology

=================

"What were tongues for? What was the purpose of this gift? The one place in the New Testament which clearly sets forth the purpose of tongues is 1 Corinthians 14:22: "Wherefore, tongues are for a sign . . ." The preposition translated "for" (eis) here denotes purpose. The verse is introduced by the particle "wherefore" (hoste), which means "for this reason, therefore." [Arndt and Gingrich, p. 908] Paul’s explanation in verse 22 concerning the purpose of tongues is actually an inference based upon his words in verse 21. Therefore, the key to understanding the purpose of tongues must be found in 1 Corinthians 14:21. Verse 21 begins with these important words, "In the law it is written . . ."

In verse 21 Paul cited an Old Testament passage, Isaiah 28:11-12. Paul knew that the key to understanding the Biblical purpose of tongues is found "in the law," that is, in the Old Testament Scriptures. What does the Old Testament teach concerning tongues? What was the significance and purpose of tongues in Old Testament times? When foreign tongues were spoken, what did this mean? The key which will unlock the purpose and significance of the gift of tongues is found " in the law."

Isaiah 28 is not the only passage in the Old Testament which deals with the significance of foreign tongues. Several such passages together set forth a very sobering Biblical principle-a principle which has been demonstrated repeatedly in history. To discover the significance of tongues in the Old Testament, the following important passages must be considered: Genesis 11, Deuteronomy 28, Jeremiah 5, Isaiah 28 (cited by Paul in 1 Corinthians 14:21), and Isaiah 33.

As these passages are examined in detail, the reader is encouraged to discover a pattern and sequence which is repeated again and again. This tragic pattern can be simply summarized as follows:

God has a message for the people.
The people refuse to listen to God.
God causes tongues to be heard as a sign of judgment.
Dispersion follows.

GENESIS 11​

In this important chapter describing the judgment upon Babel, tongues are mentioned for the very first time. Prior to Genesis 11 tongues (plural) did not exist! There was only one tongue throughout the inhabited earth: "And the whole earth was of one language, and of one speech" (Genesis 11:1). Foreign tongues made their first historical appearance in Genesis 11.

God has a message for the people. Following the great Genesis flood, God gave this simple command to Noah and his sons: "Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the earth" (Genesis 9:1; cf. Genesis 9:7) How would the descendants of Noah respond to this divine command?

The people refuse to listen to God. Instead of filling the earth as God had said, the people refused to obey. In their opposition to God’s Word and God’s will, they decided to build a huge tower and make a name for themselves, "Lest we be scattered abroad over the face of the whole earth" (Genesis 11:4).

God causes tongues to be heard as a sign of judgment. For the first time in history foreign tongues were spoken: "Come, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another’s speech" (Genesis 11:7). God’s judgment fell upon a disobedient and godless people.

Dispersion followed. "So the Lord scattered them abroad from there upon the face of all the earth" (Genesis 11:8).

DEUTERONOMY 28​

The Lord communicated His will to the nation Israel by giving the people His holy law. God set before them a blessing and a curse: a blessing if they would obey the commandments of the Lord, and a curse if they would disobey (Deuteronomy 11:26-28). The blessings and the curses that would come upon the nation are clearly enumerated in Deuteronomy 28.

God has a message for the people.

And it shall come to pass if thou shalt hearken diligently unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to observe and to do all His commandments which I command thee this day, that the LORD thy God will set thee on high above all nations of the earth; And all these blessings shall come on thee, and overtake thee, if thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God" (Deuteronomy 28:1).

The people refuse to listen to God.

But it shall come to pass, if thou wilt not hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to observe to do all His commandments and His statutes which I command thee this day; that all these curses shall come upon thee, and overtake thee (Deuteronomy 28:15).

God causes tongues to be heard as a sign of judgment. One of the curses which the Lord promised to bring upon His disobedient people was the terrible invasion of a conquering nation. As the foreigners would approach, Israel would hear the strange tongues of the enemy:

The LORD shall bring a nation against thee from far, from the end of the earth, as swift as the eagle flieth; a nation whose tongue thou shalt not understand (Deuteronomy 28:49).

Dispersion follows.

And the Lord shall scatter thee among all people, from the one end of the earth even unto the other; and there thou shalt serve other gods, which neither thou nor thy fathers have known, even wood and stone. And among these nations shalt thou find no case, neither shall the sole of thy foot have rest: but the LORD shall give thee there a trembling heart, and failing of eyes, and sorrow of mind (Deuteronomy 28:64-65).

JEREMIAH 5​

God has a message for the people. Through the Prophet Jeremiah, the Lord pleaded with His people Israel that they might turn from their evil ways and return to the Lord their God: "If thou wilt return, O Israel, saith the LORD, return unto Me" (Jeremiah 4:1; cf. Matthew 11:28). God would have done so much if they had simply turned to Him (Psalm 81:8-16)!

The people refuse to listen to God.

O LORD, are not Thine eyes upon the truth? Thou hast stricken them, but they have not grieved; Thou hast consumed them, but they have refused to receive correction: they have made their faces harder than a rock; they have refused to return (Jeremiah 5:3).

God causes tongues to be heard as a sign of judgment. When a people refuse to come to God, judgment must inevitably follow. The forbearance and long-suffering of God must someday come to an end. If Israel would not respond to Jeremiah’s warnings, then God would speak to the nation in a way they would never forget. Though they could not understand the strange tongues of their invaders, the message of their swords would be long remembered:

Lo, I will bring a nation upon you from far, 0 house of Israel, saith the LORD: it is a mighty nation, it is an ancient nation, a nation whose language thou knowest not, neither understandest what they say (Jeremiah 5:15).

Dispersion follows.

And it shall come to pass, when ye shall say, Wherefore doeth the LORD our God all these things unto us? then shalt thou answer them, Like as ye have forsaken Me, and served strange gods in your land, so shall ye serve strangers in a land that is not yours (Jeremiah 5:19).

For Israel, to be in the promised land was a sign of God’s blessing. To be out of the land, scattered and persecuted, was a sure indication that they were under God’s curse.


continued...

 

[Dave...]

​

ISAIAH 28​

In his important discussion concerning the purpose of the gift of tongues (1 Corinthians 14:21-22), the Apostle Paul cites Isaiah 28:11-12 as evidence that tongues was given as a sign "to them that believe not." A proper understanding of this important Old Testament passage is crucial in determining the Biblical purpose of tongues.

In Isaiah 28:9-10 ungodly Jews were apparently mocking the message of God’s prophet, Isaiah. They were expressing their indignation at Isaiah’s infantile teaching methods! They questioned, "Does he take us grave and revered seigniors, priests, and prophets, to be babies just weaned, that he pesters us with these monotonous petty preachings, fit only for the nursery, which he calls his "message"?" [Alexander Maclaren, The Book of Isaiah: Chapters 1-48 (6th ed.; London: Hodder and Stoughton, n.d.), p. 478.]

Isaiah’s message was clear and simple and even monotonous! Line upon line, line upon line . . . Sin brings judgment, sin brings judgment . . .Turn to God, turn to God . . . Isaiah used the Chinese water-torture technique of teaching: drop, drop, drop . . . sin, sin, sin . . . judgment, judgment, judgment . . . repent, repent, repent. . . . So it is not a surprise that his hearers began to say, "Who do you think we are, Isaiah? Babies? To whom do you think you are lecturing? Your repetitious preaching is fit for infants: "Sav lasav sav lasav, kav lakav kav lakav, ze’er sham ze’er sham" (see NASV marginal note). These unbelieving Jews rejected God’s message, they rejected God’s messenger, and they rejected the teaching methods of God’s messenger’s.

The Lord responded to their unbelieving scoffing by imitating their mockery and setting forth the unintelligible language of a foreign conqueror (verse 11). God first spoke to them through Isaiah’s clear and simple message. Now He will speak in judgment to them through a foreign tongue. He will speak to them with stammering lips and another (different, strange, foreign) tongue (cf. Acts 2:4 and 1 Corinthians 14:21--"other tongues").

These people closed their ears and refused the proclamation of a heavenly message. God then became, as it were, a barbarian to these people. The Assyrian tongue, which soon surrounded the Israelites, must have sounded to them like the lisping of children. It was a much less cultivated language than Hebrew, and had only the three basic vowels: a, i, and u. Because they would not hear words of comfort in their own language, they had to hear the enemy’s harsh sounds. [John Peter Lange, Commentary on the Holy Scriptures: Isaiah, trans. and ed. by Philip Schaff (Grand Rapids: Zondervan, n.d.), p. 306.]

God graciously would have given the people the rest that is found in Himself (cf. Matthew 11:28; Isaiah 30:15-17; Psalm 81:8-16), but they refused to listen. God’s wonderful promise of comfort and rest was tragically rejected. The Israelites were sick and tired of Isaiah’s repetitive assertions that sin was rampant, judgment was coming, and a return to God was the only answer.

Finally, in verses 11-13 Isaiah tells these mockers that God will indeed speak to this people. This time His message will not come through Isaiah, but through a foreign tongue. When the enemy would enter their borders, killing many, and taking others captive, they would begin to get the message! Once again the terrible pattern is repeated:

God has a message for the people.

To whom He said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing (Isaiah 28:12).

The people refuse to listen to God.

Yet they would not hear (Isaiah 28:12).

God causes tongues to be heard as a sign of judgment.

For with stammering lips and another tongue will He speak to this people (Isaiah 28:11).

Dispersion follows.

That they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken (Isaiah 28:13).

ISAIAH 33​

To the nation Israel, foreign tongues was a sign of God’s judgment and curse upon them. Likewise, the absence of foreign tongues is a sign that the nation is under the blessing of God.

In Isaiah 33:17 Israel is given a wonderful promise concerning the future millennial kingdom: "Thine eyes shall see the king in His beauty." Certainly, during the kingdom age, Israel will enjoy God’s richest blessings! No longer will they be under God’s curse. Never again will they be invaded by foreign nations. They will dwell safely and securely in the land of promise, protected by the King Himself. Thus, the absence of foreign tongues will be a sign of God’s abundant blessing upon the nation:

You will no longer see a fierce people, a people of unintelligible speech which no one comprehends, of a stammering tongue which no one understands" (Isaiah 33:19 NASV).

continued...

 

[Dave...]

THE PATTERN REPEATED IN THE NEW TESTAMENT​

Those who fail to learn from the lessons of history are bound to repeat its mistakes. The Assyrian and Babylonian captivities should have taught Israel a lesson. On the pages of the New Testament, however, the same disastrous pattern emerges.

God has a message for the people.

Come unto Me. . . and I will give you rest (Matthew 11:28; cf. Jeremiah 4:1; Isaiah 28:12).

The people refuse to listen to God.

O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathered her chickens under her wings, and ye would not [you were not willing, you refused] (Matthew 23:37).

God causes tongues to be heard as a sign of judgment. The Lord Jesus predicted the terrible judgment that would come upon the nation which had refused God and rejected His Messiah:

Behold, your house is left unto you desolate . . . Verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down (Matthew 23:38; 24:2).

The destruction of Jerusalem took place in 70 A.D. as the city was invaded by the Roman armies, led by General Titus. For the next two thousand years the living God would not dwell in a temple made with hands, but He would dwell in a unique body of believers, and in each member in particular (1 Corinthians 3:16-17; 1 Corinthians 6:19). God’s program was shifting from Israel to the Church.

Years earlier God had caused foreign tongues to be spoken and heard as a judgmental sign to the nation Israel (Acts 2; 10; 19, etc.). For those Jews who were familiar with their Old Testament, the sounds of foreign tongues gave no cause for rejoicing! Tongues were a sign of God’s curse, not of God’s blessing. Tongues signified a coming invasion, and conveyed an ominous message of rebellion, judgment, and dispersion. When God spoke in tongues, the Jews understood the message (Isaiah 28:11; 1 Corinthians 14:21). The gift of tongues was a sign-gift, given to an unbelieving, Christ-rejecting nation:

"Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not" (1 Corinthians 14:22).

Dispersion follows. The nation Israel has been scattered throughout the world for nearly two thousand years! They have been out of the land, severely persecuted, and God’s curse has been upon them: "His blood be on us, and on our children" (Matthew 27:25). Although a small remnant has returned to the land, the nation is still without a temple and there is no rest or peace in the land. The destruction of Jerusalem by Titus in 70 A.D. was something from which the nation of Israel has never recovered!"

-------------------

If you're interested, this is all tied together with Paul's teachings in 1 Corinthians 12-14 from the same link here. Start with...

​

"THE DURATION OF TONGUES"​

CHAPTER 9

 

[hawkman]

The gift of tongues ceasing has been gone over already. I wanted to concentrate on the OT aspect of the sign. I don't wish to debate why I believe the sign gift of tongues is not for today. I did that already here.

No debate offered only truth . Speaking in tongues and the Holy Spirit gives the utterance is still active today as it has been since Pentecost .

 

[Hopeful 2]

The gift of tongues ceasing has been gone over already. I wanted to concentrate on the OT aspect of the sign. I don't wish to debate why I believe the sign gift of tongues is not for today. I did that already here.

D

Thread 'A question for those who claim tongues for today.'

Oct 19, 2004

Apart from the primary purpose of tongues, which Paul said was to be a sign to unbelievers (Jews), the secondary uses ( which were necessary so God would not be the author of confusion while the sign was being given ) for tongues serve no benefit above and beyond that which we all can accomplish by regular means. When the sign aspect of tongues is absent, and it is, the secondary uses became expendable.

There is no such sign being given today like we read about in Acts. The churches who claim tongues for today deny it by their actions, they send their missionaries to school to learn...

• Dave...
• Replies: 165
• Forum: Theology

=================
"What were tongues for? What was the purpose of this gift? The one place in the New Testament which clearly sets forth the purpose of tongues is 1 Corinthians 14:22: "Wherefore, tongues are for a sign . . ." The preposition translated "for" (eis) here denotes purpose. The verse is introduced by the particle "wherefore" (hoste), which means "for this reason, therefore." [Arndt and Gingrich, p. 908] Paul’s explanation in verse 22 concerning the purpose of tongues is actually an inference based upon his words in verse 21. Therefore, the key to understanding the purpose of tongues must be found in 1 Corinthians 14:21. Verse 21 begins with these important words, "In the law it is written . . ."
In verse 21 Paul cited an Old Testament passage, Isaiah 28:11-12. Paul knew that the key to understanding the Biblical purpose of tongues is found "in the law," that is, in the Old Testament Scriptures. What does the Old Testament teach concerning tongues? What was the significance and purpose of tongues in Old Testament times? When foreign tongues were spoken, what did this mean? The key which will unlock the purpose and significance of the gift of tongues is found " in the law."
Isaiah 28 is not the only passage in the Old Testament which deals with the significance of foreign tongues. Several such passages together set forth a very sobering Biblical principle-a principle which has been demonstrated repeatedly in history. To discover the significance of tongues in the Old Testament, the following important passages must be considered: Genesis 11, Deuteronomy 28, Jeremiah 5, Isaiah 28 (cited by Paul in 1 Corinthians 14:21), and Isaiah 33.
As these passages are examined in detail, the reader is encouraged to discover a pattern and sequence which is repeated again and again. This tragic pattern can be simply summarized as follows:

GENESIS 11In this important chapter describing the judgment upon Babel, tongues are mentioned for the very first time. Prior to Genesis 11 tongues (plural) did not exist! There was only one tongue throughout the inhabited earth: "And the whole earth was of one language, and of one speech" (Genesis 11:1). Foreign tongues made their first historical appearance in Genesis 11.​

God has a message for the people. Following the great Genesis flood, God gave this simple command to Noah and his sons: "Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the earth" (Genesis 9:1; cf. Genesis 9:7) How would the descendants of Noah respond to this divine command?
The people refuse to listen to God. Instead of filling the earth as God had said, the people refused to obey. In their opposition to God’s Word and God’s will, they decided to build a huge tower and make a name for themselves, "Lest we be scattered abroad over the face of the whole earth" (Genesis 11:4).
God causes tongues to be heard as a sign of judgment. For the first time in history foreign tongues were spoken: "Come, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another’s speech" (Genesis 11:7). God’s judgment fell upon a disobedient and godless people.
Dispersion followed. "So the Lord scattered them abroad from there upon the face of all the earth" (Genesis 11:8).

DEUTERONOMY 28The Lord communicated His will to the nation Israel by giving the people His holy law. God set before them a blessing and a curse: a blessing if they would obey the commandments of the Lord, and a curse if they would disobey (Deuteronomy 11:26-28). The blessings and the curses that would come upon the nation are clearly enumerated in Deuteronomy 28.​

God has a message for the people.
The people refuse to listen to God.
God causes tongues to be heard as a sign of judgment. One of the curses which the Lord promised to bring upon His disobedient people was the terrible invasion of a conquering nation. As the foreigners would approach, Israel would hear the strange tongues of the enemy:
Dispersion follows.

JEREMIAH 5​

God has a message for the people. Through the Prophet Jeremiah, the Lord pleaded with His people Israel that they might turn from their evil ways and return to the Lord their God: "If thou wilt return, O Israel, saith the LORD, return unto Me" (Jeremiah 4:1; cf. Matthew 11:28). God would have done so much if they had simply turned to Him (Psalm 81:8-16)!
The people refuse to listen to God.
God causes tongues to be heard as a sign of judgment. When a people refuse to come to God, judgment must inevitably follow. The forbearance and long-suffering of God must someday come to an end. If Israel would not respond to Jeremiah’s warnings, then God would speak to the nation in a way they would never forget. Though they could not understand the strange tongues of their invaders, the message of their swords would be long remembered:
Dispersion follows.
For Israel, to be in the promised land was a sign of God’s blessing. To be out of the land, scattered and persecuted, was a sure indication that they were under God’s curse.


continued...

Were you given the gift of tongues after you received the gift of the Holy Ghost ?
If not, the sign that I should believe anything you write is absent.

 

[Free]

Were you given the gift of tongues after you received the gift of the Holy Ghost ?
If not, the sign that I should believe anything you write is absent.

This is the Bible Study forum, so we should stick with what the Bible says, and nowhere does it say that everyone who receives the Holy Spirit will speak in other tongues.


The only instance of speaking in tongues in the OT, that I can think of, is Balaam's donkey...

 

[Dave...]

No debate offered only truth . Speaking in tongues and the Holy Spirit gives the utterance is still active today as it has been since Pentecost .

No problem. I figured there would be a few that would need to go on record and disagree. Remember, it is the Word of God that is our Sword. Like Jesus said, "it is written". That's the test that every experience must pass.

Just wondering, do you disagree with this part?

In his important discussion concerning the purpose of the gift of tongues (1 Corinthians 14:21-22), the Apostle Paul cites Isaiah 28:11-12 as evidence that tongues was given as a sign "to them that believe not." A proper understanding of this important Old Testament passage is crucial in determining the Biblical purpose of tongues.

 

[Dave...]

Were you given the gift of tongues after you received the gift of the Holy Ghost ?
If not, the sign that I should believe anything you write is absent.

Hi Hope, Hi Hope, it's off to work I go. Sorry lol

No need for the sign anymore. It's primary purpose has went and gone. The secondary uses that were necessary to keep it Biblical went with it. One of the main reasons tongues were spoken at Pentecost pointed towards A.D 70. as was noted in the O.P.s, God's judgment on Israel. Tongues were also spoken to show by way of miracle that God's "Promise of the Father" that was owed to OT saints was being given, the NT indwelling that all Christians receive the moment Jesus places the Holy Spirit in them, called the baptism with the Holy Spirit. It also showed that God was undoing the confusion of languages that He caused way back in Babylon. The Gentiles were now grafted in per Romans 11:17-24 to provoke Israel to jealousy. I guess that was God's last straw, so to speak. It's a unique time in history and should not be used to form doctrines from because the circumstances are unrepeatable.

 

[Dave...]

The only instance of speaking in tongues in the OT, that I can think of, is Balaam's donkey...

Was that a joke? I took it that way, funny.

 

[Hopeful 2]

This is the Bible Study forum, so we should stick with what the Bible says, and nowhere does it say that everyone who receives the Holy Spirit will speak in other tongues

It is a sign from God that I take seriously, when determining the faith of others

The only instance of speaking in tongues in the OT, that I can think of, is Balaam's donkey...

I agree.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Hi Hope, Hi Hope, it's off to work I go. Sorry lol

No need for the sign anymore. It's primary purpose has went and gone. The secondary uses that were necessary to keep it Biblical went with it. One of the main reasons tongues were spoken at Pentecost pointed towards A.D 70. as was noted in the O.P.s, God's judgment on Israel. Tongues were also spoken to show by way of miracle that God's "Promise of the Father" that was owed to OT saints was being given, the NT indwelling that all Christians receive the moment Jesus places the Holy Spirit in them, called the baptism with the Holy Spirit. It also showed that God was undoing the confusion of languages that He caused way back in Babylon. The Gentiles were now grafted in per Romans 11:17-24 to provoke Israel to jealousy. I guess that was God's last straw, so to speak. It's a unique time in history and should not be used to form doctrines from because the circumstances are unrepeatable.

Your doctrine doesn't have "all" the "circumstances' covered.
How do you prove a man is really a Christian ?

 

[Free]

Was that a joke? I took it that way, funny.

I was half joking. Lol

 

[Free]

It is a sign from God that I take seriously, when determining the faith of others

Well, you shouldn’t. Not one time is it mentioned as a means of determining someone’s faith and that is because it can’t be, as it is clearly implied that not all receive the gift of tongues. So, it has nothing to do with a person’s faith.

 

[hawkman]

Just wondering, do you disagree with this part?

In his important discussion concerning the purpose of the gift of tongues (1 Corinthians 14:21-22), the Apostle Paul cites Isaiah 28:11-12 as evidence that tongues was given as a sign "to them that believe not." A proper understanding of this important Old Testament passage is crucial in determining the Biblical purpose of tongues.

Tongues are given as a sign to them that believe not , of course that is what the verse tells us .

22Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.

Also the verse tells us the other purpose for tongues , prophecy . A message is given out in tongues and then a interpretation is given all through the empowerment of the Holy Spirit . Not a new prophecy to add to the bible but a prophecy for the people gathered or just one person . At least that is how I have seen it happen .

Like Jesus said, "it is written". That's the test that every experience must pass.

I like to pray outside in my front yard in the dark , no close neighbors to hear me . I will usually pray normally with out tongues and then I will pray in tongues as the Holy Spirit gives the utterance . As I prayed in tongues one night I had an experience and the experience was with one of God's Old Testament calling cards . I think the reason I had the experience was I needed a confirmation from God about an encounter I had with the enemy a couple of weeks before . I can not begin to praise God enough for the way He blesses me .

 

[Hopeful 2]

Well, you shouldn’t.

Why not ?
Plenty of posers have infiltrated the church, so any means of identifying them before they cause damage, is good.

Not one time is it mentioned as a means of determining someone’s faith

You may have missed 1 Cor 14:22..."Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not:"
I don't believe anyone who doesn't have the gift of tongues is a true believer.

and that is because it can’t be, as it is clearly implied that not all receive the gift of tongues. So, it has nothing to do with a person’s faith.

The gift of "tongues" all have not received, is the "diverse kinds of tongues" of foreign language. (1 Cor 12:10),
Not the "tongues of angels".

 

[Free]

Why not ?
Plenty of posers have infiltrated the church, so any means of identifying them before they cause damage, is good.

Yes, but ironically, while tongues has nothing to do with a person being a believer (it isn't even implied), the Bible explicitly states a few ways to identify if someone is a false believer, including claiming to be sinless (but that's for another thread).

You may have missed 1 Cor 14:22..."Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not:"

What do you suppose it to be saying? Does it oppose something I've stated?

I don't believe anyone who doesn't have the gift of tongues is a true believer.

Which is unbiblical. Again, such an idea isn't even implied anywhere in the Bible.

The gift of "tongues" all have not received, is the "diverse kinds of tongues" of foreign language. (1 Cor 12:10),

This is the only kind of tongues. It also contradicts your previous point--if "all have not received" the gift of tongues, which implies all believers, then it cannot be the case that you believe "anyone who doesn't have the gift of tongues" isn't a true believer.

Not the "tongues of angels".

That’s most likely hyperbole. It’s necessary to understand different figures of speech in order to properly understand Scripture. Besides, it's dangerous to build a doctrine out of one verse, even more so out of one part of one verse.

 

[Dave...]

Your doctrine doesn't have "all" the "circumstances' covered.
How do you prove a man is really a Christian ?

Hi hope

I'm guessing that you believe that tongues are evidence of salvation? I know some people believe that. Your statement seems to fit that idea. Paul said "Do all speak in tongues?" The implied answer by Paul was 'no', there are a diversity of gifts to minister to the body, yet one body. If this was a proof of salvation...that would be a big problem, because "all would speak in tongues". Keep in mind that the term tongues is just a sixteenth century word for languages. Most people already know that but I think it's important to remind ourselves of this because I think that some people like the term 'tongues' because it giveth them a magic hocus pocus feeling. It just means languages. These days we don't need the gift of interpretation because our TVs have English closed captions for the hearing impaired.

The church that I went to explained that the passage that said tongues were for unbelievers meant that people would see the miracle of it and want to come to Jesus. Just the opposite happens. A woman on the show survivor spoke in gibberish and the people were not amazed. The consensus that was spoken literally by one of the contestants was "I thought she was smarter than that." That's what people think when they see charismatics speaking in what they call tongues. All the non Christian religions do the same thing, and make the same claims.

How do we know if a man is really a Christian? Jesus said you can tell a tree by it's fruit.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Yes, but ironically, while tongues has nothing to do with a person being a believer (it isn't even implied),I

I disagree.

the Bible explicitly states a few ways to identify if someone is a false believer, including claiming to be sinless (but that's for another thread).

1 John 1:1-2 are pretty good at that.
It clearly separates those who walk in darkness-sin from those who walk in the light-God.

What do you suppose it to be saying? Does it oppose something I've stated?

Speaking in tongues was meant to convince unbelievers that the speakers were indeed converted.

Which is unbiblical. Again, such an idea isn't even implied anywhere in the Bible.

I disagree.

This is the only kind of tongues.

Again, I disagree.
There are tongues that are of foreign lands...like on the day of Pentecost, and there are the "tongues of angels", used in personal prayer, and if an interpreter is present, in a church setting.

It also contradicts your previous point--if "all have not received" the gift of tongues, which implies all believers, then it cannot be the case that you believe "anyone who doesn't have the gift of tongues" isn't a true believer.

Not all believers have received the gift of ability to interpret foreign languages.
But all believers should have received the tongues Paul called "of angels".
If they haven't, then God has denied them the benefits of Rom 8:26-27..."Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God."

That’s most likely hyperbole.

It is written..."Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal." (1 Cor 13:1)
Hyperbole ?

It’s necessary to understand different figures of speech in order to properly understand Scripture. Besides, it's dangerous to build a doctrine out of one verse, even more so out of one part of one verse.

If part of a verse gives glory to God for anything He did, how can it be dangerous ?
I wonder what those without the gift of tongues feel about Paul's words in 1 Cor 13:1 ?
I wonder if they feel they have been left out ?
They should.
Of course, a real repentance from sin, and water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins, will fix their exile from God.

 

[Dave...]

Tongues are given as a sign to them that believe not , of course that is what the verse tells us .

22Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.

Also the verse tells us the other purpose for tongues , prophecy . A message is given out in tongues and then a interpretation is given all through the empowerment of the Holy Spirit . Not a new prophecy to add to the bible but a prophecy for the people gathered or just one person . At least that is how I have seen it happen .

I like to pray outside in my front yard in the dark , no close neighbors to hear me . I will usually pray normally with out tongues and then I will pray in tongues as the Holy Spirit gives the utterance . As I prayed in tongues one night I had an experience and the experience was with one of God's Old Testament calling cards . I think the reason I had the experience was I needed a confirmation from God about an encounter I had with the enemy a couple of weeks before . I can not begin to praise God enough for the way He blesses me .

But prophecy is separate from tongues. Paul went out of his way to stress this point. Prophecy edifies the body, tongue doesn't. Remember we are not gifted to minister to ourselves, but rather, to the Body. Paul stressed, in that context, that prophesy was superior to tongues. Paul said that tongues should be interpreted because the sign was still being given at that time. It kept it Biblical and edifying. But the sign was it's primary purpose. The sign is no longer being given so the secondary uses went with it. Anything good that comes from us for the Church is an undeserved gift from God. Remember, If it's from God, it's a gift. That's the context of the Gifts. That context is a little bit different today because we no longer have Apostles, and the sign gifts.

 

[Dave...]

I'm going to need to come back to this tomorrow, sorry.