Bible Study Traditions of men

[n2thelight]

The Biblical View of Tradition

God does not care too much for the traditions of man. In fact, His patience is tested with traditions. Before the dispersion in 586 BCE, Israel's relation to God had become a "tradition learned by rote" (Isaiah 29:13/Messiah quotes this same passage in the gospels of Matthew and Mark). This is translated from the Hebrew meaning literally the "commandment of rulers". Israel only honored God with their actions, not with their hearts. God's appointed feasts had become Israel's appointed feasts (Isaiah 1:14/Hosea 2:11). The people had begun to walk in their own way and in the desires of their own heart. They did not listen to God, instead their evil increased. It became so bad that God told Jeremiah not to pray for them (Jeremiah 7:8-34). When men transgress the commandments of God and go beyond what He has planned, their hearts become filled with evil. This is the exact pattern which Ha'Satan fell into in the beginning (Ezekiel 28:12b-17).
Jesus rebuked the Pharisees and scribes regarding the traditions of men:


"neglecting the commandment of God, you hold to the tradition of men." (Mark 7:8)
"and why do you yourselves transgress the commandment of God for the sake of your tradition?" (Matthew 15:3)

"thus invalidating the word of God by your tradition which you have handed down; and you do many things such as that." (Mark 7:13)

They were so caught up in tradition, they could not see the coming of the Messiah they had been waiting for; they did not know the time of their visitation (Luke 19:44).

John speaks of those who had gone too far in the teaching of Messiah; they do not have God (2 John 1:9). Traditions put men in bondage; the commandments of God make men free. Paul directs us not to follow the traditions of men lest we be taken captive (Colossians 2:8). It is the things of the world that hold us in bondage (Galatians 4:3). The word of God is truth and this truth will set us free (John 8:32).

"To the law and to the testimony? If they do not speak according to this word, it is because they have no dawn." (Isaiah 8:20)

 

[stovebolts]

Hello Onelove,

This should be a great study of scripture and you have done a very good job getting us started!

As you have rightly outlined, God does not approve of tradition when it supersedes his commandments. (I.E. Traditions of men) What is approved by God, are traditions that bring us closer as a community in Christ.

2 Thessalonians 2:13-17 But we are bound to give thanks always to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God has from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: To which he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which you have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle. Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God, even our Father, who has loved us, and has given us everlasting encouragement and good hope through grace, Encourage your hearts, and establish you in every good word and work.

 

[Catholic Crusader]

The sweet irony about this whole discussion is that Sola Scriptura - the Bible Alone - was unheard of until the 16th, and is actually therefore a tradition of men. The "Bible Alone" is "Un-Biblical", ironically enough. Jesus only condemned corrupt tradition, not ALL tradition; He held to many traditions Himself.

Here is a little reading for you:

Scripture and Tradition
source: http://www.catholic.com/library/Scriptu ... dition.asp

Protestants claim the Bible is the only rule of faith, meaning that it contains all of the material one needs for theology and that this material is sufficiently clear that one does not need apostolic tradition or the Church’s magisterium (teaching authority) to help one understand it. In the Protestant view, the whole of Christian truth is found within the Bible’s pages. Anything extraneous to the Bible is simply non-authoritative, unnecessary, or wrongâ€â€and may well hinder one in coming to God.

Catholics, on the other hand, recognize that the Bible does not endorse this view and that, in fact, it is repudiated in Scripture. The true "rule of faith"â€â€as expressed in the Bible itselfâ€â€is Scripture plus apostolic tradition, as manifested in the living teaching authority of the Catholic Church, to which were entrusted the oral teachings of Jesus and the apostles, along with the authority to interpret Scripture correctly.

In the Second Vatican Council’s document on divine revelation, Dei Verbum (Latin: "The Word of God"), the relationship between Tradition and Scripture is explained: "Hence there exists a close connection and communication between sacred Tradition and sacred Scripture. For both of them, flowing from the same divine wellspring, in a certain way merge into a unity and tend toward the same end. For sacred Scripture is the word of God inasmuch as it is consigned to writing under the inspiration of the divine Spirit. To the successors of the apostles, sacred Tradition hands on in its full purity God’s word, which was entrusted to the apostles by Christ the Lord and the Holy Spirit.

"Thus, by the light of the Spirit of truth, these successors can in their preaching preserve this word of God faithfully, explain it, and make it more widely known. Consequently it is not from sacred Scripture alone that the Church draws her certainty about everything which has been revealed. Therefore both sacred Tradition and sacred Scripture are to be accepted and venerated with the same devotion and reverence."

Read the rest here:
http://www.catholic.com/library/Scriptu ... dition.asp

 

[stovebolts]

Before this turns into a Sola Scriptura debate, let me remind the posters within this forum that in the spirit of a good Bible Study (not apologetics), we first need to discern God’s inspired word before we can apply it to specific doctrines.

Since this is the Bible Study Forum, let us go to the bible and study what the Holy Scriptures have to say about traditions, and traditions of men within the biblical narratives. Once scripture has been brought forth and a proper understanding of them has occurred, proper discernment of doctrines may be debated within other forums at 123.

Thank you for your continued consideration while enhancing and edifying others that may read these posts while seeking biblical answers to real questions.

 

[Catholic Crusader]

Fair enough. Then, regarding this preface:

The Biblical View of Tradition

I'd say you can't lump it into one view. There are good traditions and bad traditions. Jesus did not condemn ALL traditions, just the corrupt ones that nullified God's word.

It is fair to say that anything Jesus told the apostles is good, and anything that comes to us from them is good. So the trick is to differentiate between bogus traditions and those that came from the apostles, but which may have come to us orally instead of in writing. That is why Stovebolts quote is a good one, because it covers written AND oral tradition:

Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which you have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle

 

[BFSmith764]

The Biblical View of Tradition

God does not care too much for the traditions of man. In fact, His patience is tested with traditions. Before the dispersion in 586 BCE, Israel's relation to God had become a "tradition learned by rote" (Isaiah 29:13/Messiah quotes this same passage in the gospels of Matthew and Mark). This is translated from the Hebrew meaning literally the "commandment of rulers". Israel only honored God with their actions, not with their hearts. God's appointed feasts had become Israel's appointed feasts (Isaiah 1:14/Hosea 2:11). The people had begun to walk in their own way and in the desires of their own heart. They did not listen to God, instead their evil increased. It became so bad that God told Jeremiah not to pray for them (Jeremiah 7:8-34). When men transgress the commandments of God and go beyond what He has planned, their hearts become filled with evil. This is the exact pattern which Ha'Satan fell into in the beginning (Ezekiel 28:12b-17).
Jesus rebuked the Pharisees and scribes regarding the traditions of men:


"neglecting the commandment of God, you hold to the tradition of men." (Mark 7:8)
"and why do you yourselves transgress the commandment of God for the sake of your tradition?" (Matthew 15:3)

"thus invalidating the word of God by your tradition which you have handed down; and you do many things such as that." (Mark 7:13)

They were so caught up in tradition, they could not see the coming of the Messiah they had been waiting for; they did not know the time of their visitation (Luke 19:44).

John speaks of those who had gone too far in the teaching of Messiah; they do not have God (2 John 1:9). Traditions put men in bondage; the commandments of God make men free. Paul directs us not to follow the traditions of men lest we be taken captive (Colossians 2:8). It is the things of the world that hold us in bondage (Galatians 4:3). The word of God is truth and this truth will set us free (John 8:32).

"To the law and to the testimony? If they do not speak according to this word, it is because they have no dawn." (Isaiah 8:20)

Traditions are fine, as long as it's not used to replace God's word.

 

[stovebolts]

Let us look at an Apostolic tradition.

Acts 20:7 And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the next day; and continued his speech until midnight.

Here, we have the first century church meeting upon the first day of the week. While meeting upon the first day of the week is not a commandment, it was ordained by the Apostles since Christ rose on the first day of the week. (Luke 24:1-6)

Secondly, when they met, they partook in the breaking of bread (Lords Supper, Eucharist etc) per Christ's words, "Do this in remembrance of me" (Luke 22:19)

While it is customary for most denominations to meet on Wednesday, it is not commanded, nor is there any Apostolic authority to do so for that particular day. However, it is a tradition that most comply with while not even recognizing that it is tradition. I would submit that meeting on Wednesday is an excellent tradition, as would it be if it were to fall upon any other day of the week.

 

[Catholic Crusader]

...While it is customary for most denominations to meet on Wednesday, it is not commanded, nor is there any Apostolic authority to do so....

This is a good example Stove. This Wednesday stuff (which I personally have no experience with) is NOT apostolic tradition. But yet, it is NOT BAD tradition either, because there is nothing about it that nullifies the word of God. So this would be a good tradition. If this were a Catholic practice, we would call it a custom, or a small "t" tradition, as opposed to Big "T" Tradition which we would associate with Apostolic Tradition.

 

[stovebolts]

Bingo :smt023

 

[stovebolts]

Well, I gave a positive biblical affirmation of tradition within a scriptural context. Can somebody please post a specific negative tradition found within scripture?

 

[sheshisown]

Hi Stove and Bible studiers,

Well, I gave a positive biblical affirmation of tradition within a scriptural context. Can somebody please post a specific negative tradition found within scripture?

This conversation is interesting to me, I have been reading what you fellows have found and I agree.
I looked up one instance of what Jesus said negatively about the traditions of men and include these for your further development. From blueletterbible.org;

Mat. 15:2-5 "Why do Your disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? For they do not wash their hands when they eat bread. He answered and said to them, "Why do you also transgress the commandment of God because of your tradition? "For God commanded, saying, 'Honor your father and your mother'; and, 'He who curses father or mother, let him be put to death.' "But you say, 'Whoever says to his father or mother, "Whatever profit you might have received from me is a gift to God"-- 'then he need not honor his father or mother.' Thus you have made the commandment of God of no effect by your tradition.

The matter in question has nothing to do with good hygiene. The religious officials are offended that the disciples do not observe the rigid, extensive ritual for washing before meals.
These ceremonial washings were commanded by tradition, not by Scripture. The religious leaders say as much when they refer to the tradition of the elders.

Jesus was very stern with these religious leaders because they were excessively concerned with ceremonial rituals to the point that they were declaring the people unclean and denying them access to God. :

In the end they elevated man’s tradition to an equal level with God’s revealed word.

I personally see this as an evil we must be wary of today as well. Because we look at the lives of others and may be suduced into thinking them "spiritual" by mere appearance and image. However, God is interested in the internal and the real. Jesus said true worshippers will worship God in spirit and in truth.

Can you fellows follow up with more clarification and edification please?
:D bonnie

 

[stovebolts]

Nice follow up Bonnie! Very well said :D

In the end they elevated man’s tradition to an equal level with God’s revealed word.

I'd almost have to say that they elevated their tradition above God's word.

The verses you posted remind me of Luke 11:37-54.

Take a look at it. Ironically, the word wash in verse 38 in greek is baptizo

Strongs 907 has this to say about the word translated as wash.
from a derivative of 911; baptizo
to immerse, submerge; to make whelmed (i.e. fully wet); used only (in the New Testament) of ceremonial ablution, especially (technically) of the ordinance of Christian baptism:--Baptist, baptize, wash.

In essence, Jesus is sitting at Table un-baptized and the Pharisee’s are so concerned about their own self righteousness, rites and rituals, they loose the true meaning and purpose of God’s word which is summed up in verse 41. (Net Bible) But give from your heart to those in need, and then everything will be clean for you.

 

[Imagican]

Well, I gave a positive biblical affirmation of tradition within a scriptural context. Can somebody please post a specific negative tradition found within scripture?

Jerimiah 10:

2] Thus saith the LORD, Learn not the way of the heathen, and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven; for the heathen are dismayed at them.
[3] For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe.
[4] They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not.
[5] They are upright as the palm tree, but speak not: they must needs be borne, because they cannot go. Be not afraid of them; for they cannot do evil, neither also is it in them to do good.

Is this what you were asking of?

MEC

 

[sheshisown]

I'd almost have to say that they elevated their tradition above God's word.

The verses you posted remind me of Luke 11:37-54.

Take a look at it. Ironically, the word wash in verse 38 in greek is baptizo

Strongs 907 has this to say about the word translated as wash.
from a derivative of 911; baptizo
to immerse, submerge; to make whelmed (i.e. fully wet); used only (in the New Testament) of ceremonial ablution, especially (technically) of the ordinance of Christian baptism:--Baptist, baptize, wash.

In essence, Jesus is sitting at Table un-baptized and the Pharisee’s are so concerned about their own self righteousness, rites and rituals, they loose the true meaning and purpose of God’s word which is summed up in verse 41. (Net Bible) But give from your heart to those in need, and then everything will be clean for you.

Hey Stovebolt, thank you for your insights from the word!

WOW! Your follow up on the word wash is enlightening, I see much more clearly the keeping of these traditions (rituals) were literally the keeping of the religious leaders eternal lives in their minds. I looked into some of historical background for these ceremonies and found something that opens this subject of traditional washing up further still.

See = Enduring Word Media (EWM), David Guzik study guide, personal use distributions permitted.

For these ceremonial washings, special stone vessels of water were kept, because ordinary water might be unclean. In performing the ceremonial washing, you had to take at least enough of this water to fill one and one-half eggshells. You started by pouring the water over your hands starting at the fingers and running down towards your wrist. Then you cleansed each palm by rubbing the fist of the other hand into it. Then you poured water over your hands again, this time from the wrist towards the fingers. (EWM)

A really strict Jew would do this not only before the meal, but also between each course! The rabbis were deadly serious about this. They said that bread eaten with unwashed hands was no better than excrement. A rabbi who once failed to do this was considered excommunicated. Another rabbi was imprisoned by the Romans and used his ration of water for ceremonial cleansing instead of drinking, nearly died of thirst, and so was regarded as a great hero. (EWM)


What godly men they would have been if they had been as concerned with cleansing their hearts as they were about cleansing their hands! : How very sad we are, we always think there is something we can do to make or keep ourselves clean.

Why is this true so often? :-? ?

These Pharisees carefully guarded their outward appearance of right living ( having baptised hands to eat with ) as you point out. However, in doing the outward *right actions* they completely deny their real need for inner cleansing, having a clean conscience before God.

I don't know about you, but I neglect my conscience at times too, then I get a tug from Jesus in my heart and thankfully He tugs me back onto my knees again. :

The remedy follows the warning, that's our DAD's way isn't it? But give from your heart to those in need, and then everything will be clean for you.

For where our treasure is, there our heart will be also. AND~ Do not be overcome with evil, but overcome evil with good.

A Pastor I know says it this way~ Do the do's and the do not's take care of themselves.

In wondering after His wisdom . . . bonnie

 

[stovebolts]

That was a nice follow up bonnie! What an encouragement.

While I was reading your post, one of the first things that came to my mind was the first miracle that Jesus performed which as you know, was turning water into wine, which ironically, took place at a wedding feast. (John 2)

At the risk of playing the fool, I’d like to just think out loud if I can. Right or wrong I’m not much concerned. I’m just curious where this will go.

I’ve always wondered why Mary told the servant’s, “Do whatever he says†(Paraphrased from John 2:5), but then, I never really took any consideration that Jesus told the servants to get the pots that the Jews used for ritual purification. I’ve found that Jesus rarely did things without a deeper connection, and here we find Jesus turning water, that was placed in Jewish ceremonial vessels that I’m assuming were also used to ‘baptize’ ones hands before a meal, into wine, and at a wedding feast no less. It could almost be taken allegorically. (Perhaps another bible study thread is in order?)

I know that in Jewish law (Leviticus 11:21-23), gnats were considered ‘unclean’, thus, the Pharisees’ would strain their wine to make sure that no gnats that happened to find their way into the cup, would be ingested. (Mt. 23:24) If they were this ridged, I can only imagine how they would have responded to their sacred wash vessels being used to hold wine.

 

[stovebolts]

Well, I gave a positive biblical affirmation of tradition within a scriptural context. Can somebody please post a specific negative tradition found within scripture?

Jerimiah 10:

2] Thus saith the LORD, Learn not the way of the heathen, and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven; for the heathen are dismayed at them.
[3] For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe.
[4] They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not.
[5] They are upright as the palm tree, but speak not: they must needs be borne, because they cannot go. Be not afraid of them; for they cannot do evil, neither also is it in them to do good.

Is this what you were asking of?

MEC

I suppose it would serve well not to let that which is fabricated by the hand of man, to become an idol which would be feared or praised.

 

[Imagican]

Absolutely,

And what is MORE prudent is the ABLILITY to discern those 'traditions' that HAVE no bearing on tht which has been offered through scripture and Spirit. And I don't MEAN 'spirit'. For OUR 'spirit' is able to devise WHATEVER 'it' desires to appease the FLESH.

Blessings,

MEC

 

[stovebolts]

I agree Mike, discerning being the key word.

Have you ever done a study on the Asherah poles (and here) and the "high places"? it' s a fascinating study, especially if you really take the near eastern texts into consideration


Here, we see one example of God commanding Moses to build, what some might consider an Idol. We also see something similar when God commands Moses to build the Tabernacle and all of it's furnishings.

Numbers 21:8-9 And the LORD said unto Moses, Make you a fiery serpent, and set it upon a pole: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he looks upon it, shall live. And Moses made a serpent of bronze, and put it upon a pole, and it came to pass, that if a serpent had bitten any man, when he beheld the serpent of bronze, he lived.

Now, this fiery serpent on a pole could be taken as an idol, and I'm sure it was by some... However, it simply pointed to a future reality, just like the tabernacle.

John 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:

Again, I think you hit it spot on. It's about discernment.

 

[Catholic Crusader]

Absolutely,

And what is MORE prudent is the ABLILITY to discern those 'traditions' that HAVE no bearing on tht which has been offered through scripture and Spirit. And I don't MEAN 'spirit'. For OUR 'spirit' is able to devise WHATEVER 'it' desires to appease the FLESH.

Blessings,

MEC

And who is to decide that?

 

[stovebolts]

Let me answer for MEC CC.

Ultimately, it's up to each individual to decide that through proper biblical discernment. What we have to keep in mind however, is that the Church is made up of each individual and thus, it is also up to the Church as a whole, which is the visible body of Christ, to admonish one another where applicable.

Jesus gave us many examples of himself, a Jew, admonishing the religious leaders of his day for their traditions that swayed the people away from the kingdom of heaven. I'm sure that their intent was in the right place... however, sometimes our zeal for our religion leads us astray from the truth. Thus, discernment...