Trinitarianism or non Trinitarian belief

[LovethroughDove]

I think part of the challenge for you is that you are applying a human trait.... that of our desire to acquire or hold positions of power. This is something I do not believe is even on the radar or hope or thought of either the Father, Son, or Holy Spirit. They are all coequal and none is in a power struggle with the other.

I just believe Jesus when he says this: John 14:28 "for the Father is greater than I."

It is not difficult for me to see how it all works.

 

[WIP]

I just believe Jesus when he says this: John 14:28 "for the Father is greater than I."

It is not difficult for me to see how it all works.

That verse does not imply that Jesus has a desire to acquire or hold a position of power. He is just stating a fact.

 

[Butch5]

Ok, I lean towards non Trinitarian view, but I admit that maybe Trinitarian view could be correct.
I would like to discuss it. I have searched the internet an have found on an interfaith forum following list of verses with a commentary that make some lean toward non Trinitarian view. which I am going to paste:

1. Matthew 24:36
No one knows about that day or hour, not even the Son, but the Father only.
Here Jesus makes a distinction between what he knows and what the Father knows.

2. Matthew 26:39
My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me, yet not as I will, but as Thou will.
Jesus’ will is likewise autonomous from God’s Will. Jesus is seeking acquiescence to God’s will.

3. John 5:26
For as the Father has life in Himself, so he has granted the Son to have life in himself.
Jesus received his life from God. God received his life from no one. He is eternally self-existent.

4. John 5:30
By myself, I can do nothing: I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who has sent me.
Jesus says, “by myself, I can do nothing.” This indicates that Jesus is relying upon his own relationship with God. He is not trying to “please myself” but rather is seeking to “please the one who sent me.”

5. John 5:19
The Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees the Father doing, because whatever the Father does, the Son does also.
Jesus declares that he is following a pattern laid down by God. He is expressing obedience to God.

6. Mark 10:18
Why do you call me good? No one is good, except God alone.
Here Jesus emphatically makes a distinction between himself and God.

7. John 14:28
The Father is greater than I.
This is another strong statement that makes a distinction between Jesus and God.

8. Matthew 6:9
Our Father, which art in Heaven.
He didn’t pray, Our Father, which art standing right here!”

9. Matthew 27:46
My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken me?
Inconceivable if he is God the Creator.

10. John 17:21-23
. . .that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. . ..that they may be one as we are one: I in them and you in me.
In this prayer Jesus defines the term “to be one.” It is clearly accomplished through the relationship of two autonomous beings. Christian believers are to model their relationship (to become one) after the relationship of God and Christ (as God and Christ are one). Notice that “to be one” does not mean to be “one and the same.”

11. 1 Corinthians 15:27-28
For he "has put everything under his feet." Now when it says that "everything" has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.
Paul declares that God put everything under Christ, except God himself. Instead God rules all things through Christ. (remember: “through him all things were made.”)

12. Hebrews 1:3
The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being.
Jesus is the exact representation of his being. I send my representative to Congress. He is not me, myself. He is my representative.

13. Hebrews 4:15 (compared with James 1:13)
For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are—yet without sin.
Jesus has been tempted in every way, just as we are, yet he never sinned. See

James 1:13: When tempted, no one should say, God is tempting me. For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt.
Jesus was tempted in every way, but God cannot be tempted. This is why Jesus said, “don’t call me good, none are good, only God.”

14. Hebrews 5:7-9
During the days of Jesus' life on earth, he offered up prayers and petitions with loud cries and tears to the one who could save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverent submission. Although he was a son, he learned obedience from what he suffered and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him
Jesus had to walk a course of faith and obedience in order to achieve perfection. By achieving perfection, Jesus “became” the source of eternal salvation

How do brothers and sisters on this forum explain the above verses in a Trinitarian view?

Also, pretty much everyone knows that word Trinitarian is not from the Bible.

I think Jesus answered the question for you in His prayer to the Father.

These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:
2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
4 I have glorified (Jn. 17:1-4 KJV)

 

[Prycejosh1987]

The father and spirit exist throughout scripture, and talk about the messiah. Jesus Christ. The Son.

 

[ervin p]

I have been thinking lately and I was thinking about the Holly Spirit, since someone somewhere on one of the forums mentioned it in regards to the Trinity. So, I wan to post the following:

Romans 8:26:27

26 In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us through wordless groans. 27 And he who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for God’s people in accordance with the will of God.

Ok, so if the Holly Spirit prays for us according to Gods will, than that somehow means that Holly Spirit is best word I can think of( I am pretty sure someone somewhere said it) is a Person, yet One with God. So, Jesus Christ is also One with God, yet He is a Person.

So, I have come to believe in Trinity again.

Thanks

 

[DavidT]

Ok, I lean towards non Trinitarian view, but I admit that maybe Trinitarian view could be correct.
I would like to discuss it. I have searched the internet an have found on an interfaith forum following list of verses with a commentary that make some lean toward non Trinitarian view. which I am going to paste:

To not be bias for or against the idea of the Trinity, one would need to also spotlight Scriptures that suggest it, in order to be fair. It's clear your post completely... leans towards a non-Trinitarian view, since you only offer Scripture along with a doubting interpretation.

1. Matthew 24:36
No one knows about that day or hour, not even the Son, but the Father only.
Here Jesus makes a distinction between what he knows and what the Father knows.
....

Most of these verses by Lord Jesus when He was in the flesh can easily be explained by His incarnation into the flesh in order suffer like us, and to die on the cross (Hebrews 2:14-15; John 1; Romans 8:3; Philippians 2.

Phil 2:5-8
5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:

6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

7 But made Himself of no reputation, and took upon Him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

8 And being found in fashion as a man, He humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
KJV

 

[for_his_glory]

I have been thinking lately and I was thinking about the Holly Spirit, since someone somewhere on one of the forums mentioned it in regards to the Trinity. So, I wan to post the following:

Romans 8:26:27

26 In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us through wordless groans. 27 And he who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for God’s people in accordance with the will of God.

Ok, so if the Holly Spirit prays for us according to Gods will, than that somehow means that Holly Spirit is best word I can think of( I am pretty sure someone somewhere said it) is a Person, yet One with God. So, Jesus Christ is also One with God, yet He is a Person.

So, I have come to believe in Trinity again.

Thanks

Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

John 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
John 20:29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

IMO, the simplest way to explain the Deity (Trinity) is found in these two scriptures, but yet no one can fully understand the Trinity as that would mean one could fully understand all the complexities of heavens, what can you do?

Can you fathom the depths of God or discover the limits of the Almighty? They are higher than the heavens, what can you do? Job 11:7, 8; Isaiah 55:9.

Isaiah 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
Isa 55:9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

God is the word from the beginning being one God who exist in three persons. Trinity means three in one Spirit, God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
John 14:24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.
John 14:25 These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you.
John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
John 14:27 Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.

God is Spirit, Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end.

God is the word (Spirit of God),

The word became flesh (Jesus) and dwelt among us,

When the word (Jesus) ascended back up to heaven, once again God sent His Spirit, (Holy Spirit) to indwell us and teach us all things and bring those things back to our remembrance.

Deity (Trinity) is God's Spirit manifested in the person of Jesus as God's plan of salvation through His birth, death and resurrection.

Holy Spirit (God's Spirit) was again sent down to permanently indwell those who are Spiritually born again, John 3:5-7, who will teach us all truths of what Jesus, (the word of God made flesh), already taught His disciples who were sent out into the world to make disciples of all of us to help teach others,

 

[Butch5]

I have been thinking lately and I was thinking about the Holly Spirit, since someone somewhere on one of the forums mentioned it in regards to the Trinity. So, I wan to post the following:

Romans 8:26:27

26 In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us through wordless groans. 27 And he who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for God’s people in accordance with the will of God.

Ok, so if the Holly Spirit prays for us according to Gods will, than that somehow means that Holly Spirit is best word I can think of( I am pretty sure someone somewhere said it) is a Person, yet One with God. So, Jesus Christ is also One with God, yet He is a Person.

So, I have come to believe in Trinity again.

Thanks

One thing we need to consider is that the word that is translated spirit is actually the word for breath in both Hebrew and Greek. So, I think the question becomes, what is the Holy Breath? Is breath a person? I would submit that the Holy Breath is a somewhat limited manifestation of the Father, rather than a third person. I don't see anything in Scripture that would indicate that there are three persons called God. This idea is first found in Christian history around the 5th century with the Athanasian Creed. Before that we don't see it.

We have Scripture that pretty much shows us that the Holy Breath is in fact the Father.

32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.
34 Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?
35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God. (Lk. 1:32-35 KJV)

Luke records that the Holy Breath would come upon Mary. He also calls it, "the power of the Highest". This shows us that the Holy Breath is the power of the Highest. It's not a third person. It's the Father. We see that it was the Holy Spirit that made Mary pregnant, therefore it would follow that the Holy Breath would be Jesus' father. Jesus called God His Father, not the Holy Breath. Therefore, the Holy Breath and the Father have to be the same. This passage is pretty conclusive. It shows that there are two, the Father and the Son. This is in line with the rest of Scripture and the earliest Christian teaching

 

[Randy]

I think Jesus answered the question for you in His prayer to the Father.

These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:
2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
4 I have glorified (Jn. 17:1-4 KJV)

He also stated the Father is His God and our God.
He received all authority.
He inherited all things.
He is appointed a priest forever.
The fullness was gifted and from the will of another at some point in history.
He has made us a Kingdom to serve His God and Father

That doesn't speak to me of "always was true God from true God" but a firstborn, a Son who was glorified above all others by the Father. A Son who received from the Father power, glory, wisdom and honor.

He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation; 16 for in him all things in heaven and on earth were created, things visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or powers—all things have been created through him and for him. 17 He himself is before all things, and in him all things hold together. 18 He is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that he might come to have first place in everything. 19 For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell, 20 and through him God was pleased to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, by making peace through the blood of his cross.



He is the first of Gods works. The firstborn of all things created. =has always been the Son
The fullness was pleased to dwell in Him=He is All that the Father is. The image of the invisible God.

 

[Butch5]

He also stated the Father is His God and our God.
He received all authority.
He inherited all things.
He is appointed a priest forever.
The fullness was gifted and from the will of another at some point in history.
He has made us a Kingdom to serve His God and Father

That doesn't speak to me of "always was true God from true God" but a firstborn, a Son who was glorified above all others by the Father. A Son who received from the Father power, glory, wisdom and honor.

He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation; 16 for in him all things in heaven and on earth were created, things visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or powers—all things have been created through him and for him. 17 He himself is before all things, and in him all things hold together. 18 He is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that he might come to have first place in everything. 19 For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell, 20 and through him God was pleased to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, by making peace through the blood of his cross.



He is the first of Gods works. The firstborn of all things created. =has always been the Son
The fullness was pleased to dwell in Him=He is All that the Father is. The image of the invisible God.

How does this relate to what I posted?

 

[Randy]

How does this relate to what I posted?

Hmm, you mean where you highlighted where the head of the body of Christ called the Father the only true God?

 

[Butch5]

Hmm, you mean where you highlighted where the head of the body of Christ called the Father the only true God?

Jesus called the Father the only true God. I don't see the point you were making.

 

[Randy]

Jesus called the Father the only true God. I don't see the point you were making.

I agree with Jesus. Jesus has always been the Son.

 

[Butch5]

I agree with Jesus. Jesus has always been the Son.

I'm confused. You said Jesus was the first born of all creation. How has He always been the Son if He was the first born?

 

[Randy]

0

I'm confused. You said Jesus was the first born of all creation. How has He always been the Son if He was the first born?

The first thing God did was to form Jesus's Spirit. He is the first of Gods works. The fullness was gifted. The Father is His God. Jesus is the firstborn of all things created, (all creation) He is before all things except His God.
He is the image of the invisible God. All that the Father is. God in that context.

You love righteousness and hate wickedness; therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions by anointing you with the oil of joy

And again, when God brings the firstborn into the world, he says, "Let all God's angels worship him."

Is Jesus God?
He never dies (put to death in the flesh but alive in the Spirit)
Yes, He is all that the Father is. (The fullness was pleased to dwell in Him)
No, He has always been the Son. (Gods firstborn and the firstborn of all things created)

 

[jaybird]

one of the issues i have with the trinity is why did it take so long to figure it out? officially the process began in the late 300s, and then you get to the late 600s and they are still calling councils and making changes to the doctrine. this is almost 700 years after Jesus. you would think a "cornerstone" of the faith would have been understood long before that.