Triple DOG

[unred typo]

John wrote: First off: What I say matters nothing much. But I will answer as I read the [post]. I gave Romans 8:1 for the saved ones qualifications. IN CHRIST! I also do not think that I ever in my long life have ever attempted to 'read minds or motives'.

I did mean according to the beliefs listed, would there be other things required of anyone, to believe in order to be saved in your opinion. They happen to be what I do believe, but probably not exactly as you understand them to mean. We all read into the words our own understanding of the definitions.


John wrote: OK: Here is the crux of salvation as I see it & as I pointed out. (go back & read it?) You say, 'confess and forsake my sin'. The subject of any doctrine as seen in 2 Timothy 3:16 will require the convicting of the Holy Ghost to be sin. (Romans 8:14) It matters not if it be even the sun. worship or the 7th day Sabbath doctrine. We are required to be 'LED'. We can be 'IN CHRIST' up to this point & still be 'babes'. Yet, there is an Heb. 6 following Heb. 5. (regardless who it is that is seen there)

Do you believe that the Holy Spirit can lead those who have never heard of Christ?


John wrote: Now: when we [teach] error, regardless of our knowledge, souls are in danger. If you check back on my [posting], I am sure that you will find that the doctrine of the Godhead [for me] is of vital importance! So any thing against it is a RED FLAG WARNING! And having said that, I mean that if I did not teach it the way that I BELIEVE it, that I PERSONALLY WILL NOT BE SAVED! (that is all for emphasis of my BELIEF!)

By doctrine of Godhead, I presume you mean the trinity? I believe everything the Bible says in regard to the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit but I will not go beyond the scripture and say there is a trinity because for all we know, there may be a four-, seven- or even ten-fold nature of God and he has not chosen to reveal this to us. If Jesus said “For there are only three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one,†instead of “For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are oneâ€Â, there would be a trinity in the Bible. But it’s not spelled out and if it were critical, it would be. The equality of the three in attributes is also not Biblically described, in fact, there is a distinction made instead.



John wrote:It is similar to the 7th day Sabbath, it saves no one, yet if I am saved by the Blood of Christ, how could ['i'] say that I Love my Savior, or know Him, while not keeping His or the Fathers, or the complete Godhead's Eternal Covenant of Hebrews 13:20?? (1 John 2:4)

I don’t see how the doctrine of the trinity can be compared to the keeping of the seventh day as holy. One is specifically declared to be God’s day of rest ordained for man as well, while the trinity doctrine as approved by theologians today is not even mentioned to be taught or held to. It may be true or it may be wrong. If it was that important, why didn’t Jesus stress that it be taught exactly that way? He stressed that we love one another, forgive as we have been forgiven, be humble, turn the other cheek, and many other practical things, but not the trinity.



John wrote: I am convinced that if [I do not] teach all Truth as I see it, by the Philippians 4:13 & 2 Corinthians 12:9 GRACE given to me as Provisions to MATURE in so doing, that I will NOT BE SAVED, PERIOD!! Again Luke 12:47-48.
Look at it this way? If we are IN CHRIST, then You and I are surely differant parts of the body, and even in responsibilites in some degree. Yet, I am never to try and do the Holy Spirits job of convicting His Inspiration, huh? OH' and surely, there are twelve differant tribes in Rev. 7 also?

Sure, we believe differently, but I think we teach according to what we believe, in love, spirit and truth. I think if we are wrong, our work will be burnt up but we will be judged by our deeds and motives and if we are in Christ, we shall be saved (‘so as by fire‘) even if our reward is lost.

 

[John the Baptist]

John wrote: First off: What I say matters nothing much. But I will answer as I read the [post]. I gave Romans 8:1 for the saved ones qualifications. IN CHRIST! I also do not think that I ever in my long life have ever attempted to 'read minds or motives'.

I did mean according to the beliefs listed, would there be other things required of anyone, to believe in order to be saved in your opinion. They happen to be what I do believe, but probably not exactly as you understand them to mean. We all read into the words our own understanding of the definitions.

John wrote: OK: Here is the crux of salvation as I see it & as I pointed out. (go back & read it?) You say, 'confess and forsake my sin'. The subject of any doctrine as seen in 2 Timothy 3:16 will require the convicting of the Holy Ghost to be sin. (Romans 8:14) It matters not if it be even the sun. worship or the 7th day Sabbath doctrine. We are required to be 'LED'. We can be 'IN CHRIST' up to this point & still be 'babes'. Yet, there is an Heb. 6 following Heb. 5. (regardless who it is that is seen there)

Do you believe that the Holy Spirit can lead those who have never heard of Christ?

*****
Surely! I think that it takes a created human being giving up %100 of self to be Born Again. The total will is not 'a complete mature person at this point'! But as was Adam befor sin even. Perfect in Christ (Romans 8:1) is the starting point only!
This is the trouble as I see it for the reformation ones. Most might have been Re/Born as in Hebrews 6:1-5 positives only. Made partakers of the Holy Ghost! Then came more Required Truth, and as Baptists teach, hay, I am OSAS, what more do I need??? Got that?

Now: How did these one get saved who do not have the Truth as we are blessed with having? Romans 2:14-15 tel's us that it was by the Godheads second Bible, (so to speak) nature! Life, sun, moor & stars, Their creation.
Surely, they do not have it all, but they live up to what they had & was given to them in their future. What more could they do??? And it states (K.J.) that they had the Law IN THEIR HEART. These ones might not have known the 'profession' of Christ as we see one clain today, yet, they KNEW HIS VERY 'EPISTLE' TO THEM (bottom line) in their mind & hearts it was written. 2 Corinthians 3:3.

We are only accountable for what we know & could have known as I see it. Luke 12:47-48

I think that we are duty bound to be 'Loving working' servants of Christ! As satan requires his Genesis 4:7 ones! They desire & and we LOVINGLY DESIRE. (that is the motive) The claim means nothing! Lukewarm love? SPEWED OUT, LOST!
---John
****

John wrote: Now: when we [teach] error, regardless of our knowledge, souls are in danger. If you check back on my [posting], I am sure that you will find that the doctrine of the Godhead [for me] is of vital importance! So any thing against it is a RED FLAG WARNING! And having said that, I mean that if I did not teach it the way that I BELIEVE it, that I PERSONALLY WILL NOT BE SAVED! (that is all for emphasis of my BELIEF!)

By doctrine of Godhead, I presume you mean the trinity? I believe everything the Bible says in regard to the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit but I will not go beyond the scripture and say there is a trinity because for all we know, there may be a four-, seven- or even ten-fold nature of God and he has not chosen to reveal this to us. If Jesus said “For there are only three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one,†instead of “For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are oneâ€Â, there would be a trinity in the Bible. But it’s not spelled out and if it were critical, it would be. The equality of the three in attributes is also not Biblically described, in fact, there is a distinction made instead.

John wrote:It is similar to the 7th day Sabbath, it saves no one, yet if I am saved by the Blood of Christ, how could ['i'] say that I Love my Savior, or know Him, while not keeping His or the Fathers, or the complete Godhead's Eternal Covenant of Hebrews 13:20?? (1 John 2:4)

I don’t see how the doctrine of the trinity can be compared to the keeping of the seventh day as holy. One is specifically declared to be God’s day of rest ordained for man as well, while the trinity doctrine as approved by theologians today is not even mentioned to be taught or held to. It may be true or it may be wrong. If it was that important, why didn’t Jesus stress that it be taught exactly that way? He stressed that we love one another, forgive as we have been forgiven, be humble, turn the other cheek, and many other practical things, but not the trinity.

John wrote: I am convinced that if [I do not] teach all Truth as I see it, by the Philippians 4:13 & 2 Corinthians 12:9 GRACE given to me as Provisions to MATURE in so doing, that I will NOT BE SAVED, PERIOD!! Again Luke 12:47-48.
Look at it this way? If we are IN CHRIST, then You and I are surely differant parts of the body, and even in responsibilites in some degree. Yet, I am never to try and do the Holy Spirits job of convicting His Inspiration, huh? OH' and surely, there are twelve differant tribes in Rev. 7 also?

Sure, we believe differently, but I think we teach according to what we believe, in love, spirit and truth. I think if we are wrong, our work will be burnt up but we will be judged by our deeds and motives and if we are in Christ, we shall be saved (‘so as by fire‘) even if our reward is lost.

*****
Let me conclude here: I have no problem with you doing your thing. Romans 8:14
I believe in one Virgin doctrinal faith Ephesians 4:5, John 10:16, Revelation 18:4 +.

You can be in the fold of your 'choosing'? There is no way that I could baptise you into the one that I believe in with you believing as you do. (it seems?) And that is why we do not have unity, huh? And that is why we see differant folds, huh? Each person is accountable to Christ, except to ones self & his knowledge. But, here in lays another problem! We become PARTAKERS of all open sins that any fold is guilty of when we are in yoked membership as Revelation 18:4 states, and will be LOST when staying so.

And Christ's Everlasting Gospel leaves no room for loose cannons as seen in Matthew 18:13-19 & Matthew 16:19. So we will see the repeat of Acts and a new Organized Remnant before Christ comes! Revelation 12:17.

Just one more closing thought. :fadein: The Holy Spirit never uses force! Genesis 6:3 He just 'strives' with us & 'LEADS' us as Romans 8:14, & these ones who came to Christ by Christ's created nature, who had never even heard of His person as we know of Him. The thread subject was illustrating 'biting' dogs??? I think that the illustration was way off base, even though the thread starter had no idea as how I saw it.
It was Saul that was having to 'Kick against the pricks' of the Holy Spirit as seen in Acts 9:5. (if you see my point?)
---John

 

[Steve]

Iguanas: Do they bite?

 

[unred typo]

Iguanas: Do they bite?

Only if you are a fruit or vegetable. If you are a squash blossom, be vaaaarry afraid... :o

My grandson's will bite only by accident, when provoked or when he wants to get down. His weapon of choice is his whip-like tail.

Board posters will attack when they put doctrine above love. It's not pretty.

 

[unred typo]

John the Baptist wrote:
Surely! I think that it takes a created human being giving up %100 of self to be Born Again. The total will is not 'a complete mature person at this point'! But as was Adam befor sin even. Perfect in Christ (Romans 8:1) is the starting point only!
This is the trouble as I see it for the reformation ones. Most might have been Re/Born as in Hebrews 6:1-5 positives only. Made partakers of the Holy Ghost! Then came more Required Truth, and as Baptists teach, hay, I am OSAS, what more do I need??? Got that?

Maybe I get it. Are you saying you believe that OSAS people can use that to sit back and do nothing to produce fruit in their lives? And what worth is a fruit tree with no fruit? And who is responsible to work the soil, prepare the heart to receive the seed? John 8:37 I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you.



John the Baptist wrote: Now: How did these one get saved who do not have the Truth as we are blessed with having? Romans 2:14-15 tel's us that it was by the Godheads second Bible, (so to speak) nature! Life, sun, moor & stars, Their creation.
Surely, they do not have it all, but they live up to what they had & was given to them in their future. What more could they do??? And it states (K.J.) that they had the Law IN THEIR HEART. These ones might not have known the 'profession' of Christ as we see one clain today, yet, they KNEW HIS VERY 'EPISTLE' TO THEM (bottom line) in their mind & hearts it was written. 2 Corinthians 3:3. We are only accountable for what we know & could have known as I see it. Luke 12:47-48

Agreed so far.


John the Baptist wrote: I think that we are duty bound to be 'Loving working' servants of Christ! As satan requires his Genesis 4:7 ones! They desire & and we LOVINGLY DESIRE. (that is the motive) The claim means nothing! Lukewarm love? SPEWED OUT, LOST

We still agree here more or less but we see it a little differently though. I see that by following Jesus’ teaching, we are placed in Christ, and you , I think, say that we do these works because we are in Christ. We both ultimately believe that those who don’t follow Christ are lost.



John the Baptist wrote: Let me conclude here: I have no problem with you doing your thing. Romans 8:14 I believe in one Virgin doctrinal faith Ephesians 4:5, John 10:16, Revelation 18:4 +. You can be in the fold of your 'choosing'? There is no way that I could baptise you into the one that I believe in with you believing as you do. (it seems?) And that is why we do not have unity, huh? And that is why we see differant folds, huh? Each person is accountable to Christ, except to ones self & his knowledge. But, here in lays another problem! We become PARTAKERS of all open sins that any fold is guilty of when we are in yoked membership as Revelation 18:4 states, and will be LOST when staying so.
And Christ's Everlasting Gospel leaves no room for loose cannons as seen in Matthew 18:13-19 & Matthew 16:19. So we will see the repeat of Acts and a new Organized Remnant before Christ comes! Revelation 12:17.

I don’t want to be a loose cannon. I don’t know what part of the body I belong in. I don’t want to go to a church where law is taught without grace, or love or where works are said to be optional. I’m not sure where I belong.



John the Baptist wrote: Just one more closing thought. The Holy Spirit never uses force! Genesis 6:3 He just 'strives' with us & 'LEADS' us as Romans 8:14, & these ones who came to Christ by Christ's created nature, who had never even heard of His person as we know of Him. The thread subject was illustrating 'biting' dogs??? I think that the illustration was way off base, even though the thread starter had no idea as how I saw it.
It was Saul that was having to 'Kick against the pricks' of the Holy Spirit as seen in Acts 9:5. (if you see my point?)

My OP was about the placing doctrine above love. Some speak what they believe is truth, but do it without love in a judgmental vicious way, claiming that if one does not accept the trinity, they worship a different God. If this is true, (that any misconceptions we have about God cause us to be worshipping “another God†than the one true God,) none of us know him because we can only have a finite view of him and he is infinite. I personally can not believe that if one doesn’t believe the trinity, they are going to hell for it, if they live in every other way according to the gospel taught by Christ.

 

[John the Baptist]

John the Baptist wrote:
Surely! I think that it takes a created human being giving up %100 of self to be Born Again. The total will is not 'a complete mature person at this point'! But as was Adam befor sin even. Perfect in Christ (Romans 8:1) is the starting point only!
This is the trouble as I see it for the reformation ones. Most might have been Re/Born as in Hebrews 6:1-5 positives only. Made partakers of the Holy Ghost! Then came more Required Truth, and as Baptists teach, hay, I am OSAS, what more do I need??? Got that?

Maybe I get it. Are you saying you believe that OSAS people can use that to sit back and do nothing to produce fruit in their lives? And what worth is a fruit tree with no fruit? And who is responsible to work the soil, prepare the heart to receive the seed? John 8:37 I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you.



John the Baptist wrote: Now: How did these one get saved who do not have the Truth as we are blessed with having? Romans 2:14-15 tel's us that it was by the Godheads second Bible, (so to speak) nature! Life, sun, moor & stars, Their creation.
Surely, they do not have it all, but they live up to what they had & was given to them in their future. What more could they do??? And it states (K.J.) that they had the Law IN THEIR HEART. These ones might not have known the 'profession' of Christ as we see one clain today, yet, they KNEW HIS VERY 'EPISTLE' TO THEM (bottom line) in their mind & hearts it was written. 2 Corinthians 3:3. We are only accountable for what we know & could have known as I see it. Luke 12:47-48

Agreed so far.


John the Baptist wrote: I think that we are duty bound to be 'Loving working' servants of Christ! As satan requires his Genesis 4:7 ones! They desire & and we LOVINGLY DESIRE. (that is the motive) The claim means nothing! Lukewarm love? SPEWED OUT, LOST

We still agree here more or less but we see it a little differently though. I see that by following Jesus’ teaching, we are placed in Christ, and you , I think, say that we do these works because we are in Christ. We both ultimately believe that those who don’t follow Christ are lost.



John the Baptist wrote: Let me conclude here: I have no problem with you doing your thing. Romans 8:14 I believe in one Virgin doctrinal faith Ephesians 4:5, John 10:16, Revelation 18:4 +. You can be in the fold of your 'choosing'? There is no way that I could baptise you into the one that I believe in with you believing as you do. (it seems?) And that is why we do not have unity, huh? And that is why we see differant folds, huh? Each person is accountable to Christ, except to ones self & his knowledge. But, here in lays another problem! We become PARTAKERS of all open sins that any fold is guilty of when we are in yoked membership as Revelation 18:4 states, and will be LOST when staying so.
And Christ's Everlasting Gospel leaves no room for loose cannons as seen in Matthew 18:13-19 & Matthew 16:19. So we will see the repeat of Acts and a new Organized Remnant before Christ comes! Revelation 12:17.

I don’t want to be a loose cannon. I don’t know what part of the body I belong in. I don’t want to go to a church where law is taught without grace, or love or where works are said to be optional. I’m not sure where I belong.



John the Baptist wrote: Just one more closing thought. The Holy Spirit never uses force! Genesis 6:3 He just 'strives' with us & 'LEADS' us as Romans 8:14, & these ones who came to Christ by Christ's created nature, who had never even heard of His person as we know of Him. The thread subject was illustrating 'biting' dogs??? I think that the illustration was way off base, even though the thread starter had no idea as how I saw it.
It was Saul that was having to 'Kick against the pricks' of the Holy Spirit as seen in Acts 9:5. (if you see my point?)

****
John here: We see things pretty much alike up until now. You say ..
Quote:My OP was about the placing doctrine above love. Some speak what they believe is truth, but do it without love in a judgmental vicious way, claiming that if one does not accept the trinity, they worship a different God. If this is true, (that any misconceptions we have about God cause us to be worshipping “another God†than the one true God,) none of us know him because we can only have a finite view of him and he is infinite. I personally can not believe that if one doesn’t believe the trinity, they are going to hell for it, if they live in every other way according to the gospel taught by Christ.

I do not think that we are dis/agreeing here either? But, I believe Love for Christ cannot be taken from His doctrines. Seperate His Epistle from Himself?? Doctrines are the Fiber of Christ! (See Isaiah 42:21)

Let me just ask another question?
Lets say that there are only two folds. Christ & John the Baptist. This might be kind of tricky? (:wink Anyway, John even had converts on the outside, yet, he had the the Fathers approval when he did baptise Christ. (same Virgin doctrines as Israel had=either offshoot or the start of the Remnant!) Then we see Christ with the John 10:16's other 'folds' that I must bring! (good individuals in an Christ/less fold, they had wrong 'doctrines') Why bring them out if He was inside of the fold?? And it is true as you say, it is LOVE FOR CHRIST'S TRUTH that brings them out. (when they know it)

OK: The Godhead's doctrine. Do the 'folds' have Christ inside of them if they teach the wrong doctrine, this is the question? And, can one have UNITY as a required Virgin doctrine Truth if they are not[INDIVIDUALLY] 'LED' as in Romans 8:14 on? On this, or any major doctrinal teaching?? Remember that Christ will have Unity!

[I am] accountable for what I BELIEVE & TEACH. Again: For me, as an individual, (as well as all individuals) I believe that the Godhead has one true Virgin fold! (Ephesians 4:5) And it was not doctrines that were Israel's problem, nor this last repeat Laodicea. Christ does not fault the Virgin doctrines of the Revelation 3:16-17 ones.
But as you say, it is the LOVE relationship that these ones have for Him. How do know that the doctrines are the correct ones? If one believes as I do, Revelation 1:19-20 are speaking of ONLY the True Virgin Truths of the Godhead! And each fold had problems with satanic infiltration, yet, they had not been cut off (closed door) until its full rejection of Christ. (there was an exception! = Remnant!)

And to second that fact is the Revelation 2:5 TRUTH! We do not see the True fold faulted to the point of a 'full cup' but only twice. (end of OT & NT) James 1:15, 1 John 5:16-17, Matthew 12:32-33. Only in Israel of old & Laodicea do we see the fold replaced. (not for doctrines) Matthew 23:38 & Spewed out.
And all the others folds of Revelation 17:5 are not Virgin doctrine folds. Although they do have 'some' few true doctrines.

OK: The Godhead? Do you suppose that one cannot be sure of this teaching? Romans 8:14 I can only speak for myself. But I have no such thought enter into my mind. From Matthew 4:4 - 2 Timothy 3:16 for me, I am convinced of this Truth! There were Two at Adams fall in Gen. talking of the tree of life. Their (ours & Theirs) 'image', that man was patterned after, the plural of the tower of Babel Speakers. And the one God being a Spirit? Holy SPIRIT, HOLY GHOST. And Johns many Holy Spirit Inspired personal HE descriptions. (and on & on)

I am a very simple person. I do not want tradition or the arm of flesh for what the Holy Spirit will do for Christ's sincere seekers.

Now for the bottom line as I see it. It is as stated in the last few posts! :wink: Even by you 'i' think? Be sincere, seek, FOLLOW Romans 8:14 Surrender DAILY, and because of the Love for the Master, He will teach you ALL TRUTH! But, we [must] be as a little Loving Trusting child, huh?

--John

 

[unred typo]

John wrote: I am a very simple person. I do not want tradition or the arm of flesh for what the Holy Spirit will do for Christ's sincere seekers.
Now for the bottom line as I see it. It is as stated in the last few posts! Even by you 'i' think? Be sincere, seek, FOLLOW Romans 8:14 Surrender DAILY, and because of the Love for the Master, He will teach you ALL TRUTH! But, we [must] be as a little Loving Trusting child, huh?
--John

All truth, yes. Trinity?….I’m not so sure. What if God is not a trinity but one God with a sevenfold nature? When we take the traditional teaching of trinity over what the Bible actually states, are we not teaching the doctrines of men in place of truth from God? Is the Biblical concept of the Word made flesh, the image of the invisible Holy Spirit God and only begotten Son of God the Father not sufficient to teach? If you baptize in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, do you have to also state, “who are all the one true God manifest in three persons, co-equal and co-eternal?†Look at the fruit of this teaching… men burned at the stake because they would not say the express word and doctrine of ‘trinity’ and others burned for saying it. Is that what Jesus meant when he prayed, “that they my be one even as we are one�

 

[John the Baptist]

John wrote: I am a very simple person. I do not want tradition or the arm of flesh for what the Holy Spirit will do for Christ's sincere seekers.
Now for the bottom line as I see it. It is as stated in the last few posts! Even by you 'i' think? Be sincere, seek, FOLLOW Romans 8:14 Surrender DAILY, and because of the Love for the Master, He will teach you ALL TRUTH! But, we [must] be as a little Loving Trusting child, huh?
--John

All truth, yes. Trinity?….I’m not so sure. What if God is not a trinity but one God with a sevenfold nature? When we take the traditional teaching of trinity over what the Bible actually states, are we not teaching the doctrines of men in place of truth from God?

***
John here:
You are not sure, you say? Well, I am persauded and I had always belived, and with using only the Word of God. I do not use tradition, nor the arm of flesh for my study as pertaining to Truth. I never have nor will I ever in the future.
***

Is the Biblical concept of the Word made flesh, the image of the invisible Holy Spirit God and only begotten Son of God the Father not sufficient to teach? If you baptize in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, do you have to also state, “who are all the one true God manifest in three persons, co-equal and co-eternal?†Look at the fruit of this teaching… men burned at the stake because they would not say the express word and doctrine of ‘trinity’ and others burned for saying it. Is that what Jesus meant when he prayed, “that they may be one even as we are one�

***
Me again: Yes, for me, it is. Because the Virgin 'fold' of God needed Caesar to execute the Master, did that make Christ a liar in Matthew 23:3 (K.J.) Or because the 150.000.000 million reported in Fox Book of Martyrs by Rome, does that make them wrong teaching that abortion is murder?
Like I have stated [i believe] that to them that know to do good, and do it not, to them it is sin.
***

 

[John the Baptist]

Posted: Mon Jul 31, 2006 5:14 am Post subject: --CURSED BE THE MAN .. MAKETH FLESH HIS ARM! Jer. 17:5--

Aha! (?) Well, whatever?
Anyway, Back to my K.J., and still in full belief that even my Bible [ALONE] is its own Hermeneutics!!

And I have NO trouble with it! I see a DOCUMENTED by God division in Isaiah 8:20. First is HIS work done by Himself. And then, His work 'given' to other's, who are 'holy men of God' to do His work of testimony. That comes out as the Eternal Covenant & then the 66 books. Covenant & Testimony!

******
Typo: I posted this up the 31st. This is my test of any doctrine. (both the Eternal Covenant & the Testimony of the 66 Books)

The person needs to forget the other stuff, (just stay away from it until we are settled) just jump right into the 'testimony' of all the Inspired penman of the whole book. They wrote as they could best explain in their own wordings. We need all of their words to get the accurate 'picture' of any doctrine. But never do they contradict the Word. (1 Corinthians 14:32) And If we keep praying for the Holy Spirit guidance, we will know the doctrine. Will we walk in the Truth? that is our choice.

So: I guess I am wondering what you are looking for with these questions? Most here, most likely have no more of an idea of what Isaiah 28:9-10 mean than the milk ones of Hebrews 5:14? And by that I mean, on any forum that agrees on nothing much??? Revelation 17:5
---John
******