TRUTH about Speaking in Tongues - JOHN MACARTHUR

[Rick W]

for it is possible that you, Free, are not unlike the main character in The Matrix movie
My advice, young Josh, is to lay off the Cool Aid.
and, of course, we have young Josh to do this for us
you have an extraordinary high opinion of your own sagacity

 

[Vic C.]

for it is possible that you, Free, are not unlike the main character in The Matrix movie
My advice, young Josh, is to lay off the Cool Aid.
and, of course, we have young Josh to do this for us
you have an extraordinary high opinion of your own sagacity

That's two members who also happen to be Mods. Again, please stick to issues, not people.

You are indeed, a Bad Rabbit.

Blessings,
MEC

Agreed, MEC.

 

[lovely]

I am not sure what those people are doing in the videos, to be honest. I like much of what John McArthur preaches, but I do not entirely agree with him on this subject. I do not have the gift of tongues, but the Bible speaking about it is enough for me to believe that it is something true and can happen in a genuine manner. The Bible also says we should not forbid tongues.

I think that some churches, maybe like some on the videos, make tongues an idol. They tell people they do not have the Holy Spirit or salvation unless they speak in tongues, and sort of use the gift to lord over others. This is not Biblical.

As I said in another thread, I believe that William Carey may have had the gift of tongues. Yes, I realize that he studied the languages, but learning so many in a relatively short amount of time is a gift. I don't know any documented instances of tongues just falling on someone, but I don't doubt that God can do such a thing. Paidion had a testimony of his own personal experience with his aunt, and I found that very interesting. I admit I am suspicious of tongues in general, because of so much misuse and deception.

I think that with people learning so many different languages, and God providing interpreters in the service, we do not need spontaneous tongues so much any more...there are still people speaking in another languages and interpreting for those teaching and prophecying, and it happens a great deal. The Lord bless all of you.

 

[destiny]

McArthur doesn't believe the gifts of the spirit are for today, nor does he believe in modern day miracles.
Those people in the video are in error.. as is McArthur. The scales have no balance either way.

We have to read the Bible for ourselves through the lens of the Holy Spirit, instead of allowing man to cloud and distort the truth.

 

[Dave Slayer]

McArthur doesn't believe the gifts of the spirit are for today, nor does he believe in modern day miracles.
Those people in the video are in error.. as is McArthur. The scales have no balance either way.

We have to read the Bible for ourselves through the lens of the Holy Spirit, instead of allowing man to cloud and distort the truth.

MacArthur believes God still performs miracles today, he just does not believe that the "sign gifts" are for today. He believes that because the Bible teaches they were mainly signs to the unbelieving Jews, because the Jews required signs, Gentiles do not. The signs were more or less a warning to the unbelieving Jews that judgment was coming. Some believe that in 70 AD when Jerusalem was destroyed, the sign gifts ceased. All signs point to something. In this case, the sign gifts were pointing to unbelieving Israel that judgment was coming. When we drive to a destination we see signs along the way that will tell us how many more miles we have to go. But once we get to our destination, there are no more signs. So, once the judgement came upon Israel, the signs stopped. I could be wrong but it would make sense.

People today seem to rely more on miracles than they do faith.

Perhaps MacArthur is wrong in his interpretations, but who is to say we are right? John did the best he could with interpreting the scriptures as do any of us. It just may be that God will look at us in the face someday and tell us we all were way off on our interpretations. :P

Does God perform miracles today? Absolutely. However, the only ones in the Bible that could perform miracles were Jesus, the Apostles, and a few that the Apostles laid hands on. Not every believer could perform miracles. The fact that the Apostles could perform miracles was because it was a sign they were Apostles. If every believer could do it, then that would make everyone an Apostle. Every Apostle was hand picked by Christ, even Paul.

As Christians, none of us will ever agree 100% with scripture interpretation. I just don't like it when some people get on a high horse and act as if they know it all. We should never accuse other believers of being right or wrong. We can do our best to study the scriptures the best ways we know how and leave it at that. We can 'believe" someone has the wrong interpretation, but we should never have the attitude "I am right and you are wrong". Every believer reads from the same Bible but many arrive at differing conclusions. They all believe they are right, but we know they can't be all right.

I have listened to many preachers over the years and I happen to find John MacArthur to be one of the best. I don't agree with him on everything he teaches, but I believe he is on point when it comes to the subject of tongues. He has did a lot of historical background in his studies and he always tries his best to understand the proper context. He even admits at times that he has trouble interpreting certain passages, but who doesn't?

I have been involved in a couple charismatic Churches and I can say that it was more harmful in my walk with God than it has been helpful. I have been a Christian for 13 years now and never once spoke in tongues. I pray to God in English and He understands me just fine. When I pray, I want to know what I am saying.

 

[destiny]

MacArthur believes God still performs miracles today, he just does not believe that the "sign gifts" are for today.

The temporary sign gifts--Miracles" by, John MacArthur:

We must still allow for God to do a miracle, never confining Him, but that is not the norm or pattern. Some Christians today think miracles are the norm. There is no end to their appearance on some of the television programs. In fact, there are so many efforts at healing that none of them mean anything. There just is no evidence that those healings are legitimate.

God has designed miracles for a single purpose -- to confirm His revelation. Once God has revealed Himself, then the miracles have no continuing purpose. For example, when God finished revealing Himself in the Old Testament, that period was closed. In the four-hundred-year period of history between the Old and New Testaments, God gave no revelation, and certainly nothing miraculous. Then, in the New Testament, miracles occurred again. Now the New Testament is finished, the Book is closed, and there are no more miracles.

Dave you seem to be suggesting that biblial truth cannot be known and that we should accept all interpretations; this is both unbiblical and dangerous. The Bible is not subjective to man. Most of the New Testament scriptures concerning the function of the body of Christ are plainly stated. It is man who re-writes it to suit preconcieved notions and pet bible teachers.

Most of Jesus' disciples were simple fisherman and unlearned men.

PS.. For years I was in one of the most abusive charismatic churches out there, but I still know what the Bible plainly states concerning the same gifts they perverted and abused. I didn't let them rob me of the truth.

 

[Dave Slayer]

MacArthur believes God still performs miracles today, he just does not believe that the "sign gifts" are for today.

[quote:3h3ss8l5]The temporary sign gifts--Miracles" by, John MacArthur:

We must still allow for God to do a miracle, never confining Him, but that is not the norm or pattern. Some Christians today think miracles are the norm. There is no end to their appearance on some of the television programs. In fact, there are so many efforts at healing that none of them mean anything. There just is no evidence that those healings are legitimate.

God has designed miracles for a single purpose -- to confirm His revelation. Once God has revealed Himself, then the miracles have no continuing purpose. For example, when God finished revealing Himself in the Old Testament, that period was closed. In the four-hundred-year period of history between the Old and New Testaments, God gave no revelation, and certainly nothing miraculous. Then, in the New Testament, miracles occurred again. Now the New Testament is finished, the Book is closed, and there are no more miracles.

Dave you seem to be suggesting that biblial truth cannot be known and that we should accept all interpretations; this is both unbiblical and dangerous. The Bible is not subjective to man. Most of the New Testament scriptures concerning the function of the body of Christ are plainly stated. It is man who re-writes it to suit preconcieved notions and pet bible teachers.

Most of Jesus' disciples were simple fisherman and unlearned men.

PS.. For years I was in one of the most abusive charismatic churches out there, but I still know what the Bible plainly states concerning the same gifts they perverted and abused. I didn't let them rob me of the truth.[/quote:3h3ss8l5]

I wouldn't agree that we should accept all interpretations. I gave that impression and I apologize for that. I was just saying that I have studied the subject of tongues rather extensively and I believe that I have a pretty good understanding of it from a Biblical standpoint. I of course cannot say that my understanding is the "right one", though I believe I am interpreting them accurately. Many disagree with me and that is fine. If I am wrong in my interpretations, God will tell me someday. However, it won't matter at that point.

 

[awaken]

PS.. For years I was in one of the most abusive charismatic churches out there, but I still know what the Bible plainly states concerning the same gifts they perverted and abused. I didn't let them rob me of the truth.

Very well put! I was on the other end of this, I was raised that the manifestation of the Spirit had ceased. When I went to God for the truth and saw what he said is scriptures...I believed!

There is a balance..and freedom in the truth! Peace and Joy..I do not believe that speaking in tongues is a salvation issue, but it is very benificial to our walk with the Lord. Jesus is the only way, but because of what he has done we have a life more abundantly!

 

[Dave Slayer]

PS.. For years I was in one of the most abusive charismatic churches out there, but I still know what the Bible plainly states concerning the same gifts they perverted and abused. I didn't let them rob me of the truth.

Very well put! I was on the other end of this, I was raised that the manifestation of the Spirit had ceased. When I went to God for the truth and saw what he said is scriptures...I believed!

There is a balance..and freedom in the truth! Peace and Joy..I do not believe that speaking in tongues is a salvation issue, but it is very benificial to our walk with the Lord. Jesus is the only way, but because of what he has done we have a life more abundantly!

And I respect that. However, I do not speak in tongues. My life has been very abundant for my 13 years of being a Christian. If tongues make you guys feel closer to God, that is fine. But when I pray to God in English, I feel close to God. I won't fix what's not broken.

 

[awaken]

PS.. For years I was in one of the most abusive charismatic churches out there, but I still know what the Bible plainly states concerning the same gifts they perverted and abused. I didn't let them rob me of the truth.

Very well put! I was on the other end of this, I was raised that the manifestation of the Spirit had ceased. When I went to God for the truth and saw what he said is scriptures...I believed!

There is a balance..and freedom in the truth! Peace and Joy..I do not believe that speaking in tongues is a salvation issue, but it is very benificial to our walk with the Lord. Jesus is the only way, but because of what he has done we have a life more abundantly!

And I respect that. However, I do not speak in tongues. My life has been very abundant for my 13 years of being a Christian. If tongues make you guys feel closer to God, that is fine. But when I pray to God in English, I feel close to God. I won't fix what's not broken.

Paul said he did both...1 Cor. 14:15 What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understaning also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.

vs. 2 For he that speaketh in an tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God? for no man understandeth; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

vs. 16. Else when thou bless with the spirit how shall he that occupieth the room of the unlearned say A-men at thy giving of thanks, seeing he understandeth not what thou sayeth? For thou verily giveth thanks well, but the other is not edified.

 

[Dave Slayer]

If praying in the spirit means to pray in unknown tongues that sound like "bah alla balla", then why do the scriptures say we need to pray with understanding? If we pray to God in a language we do not understand, that is not praying with the understanding. If we pray out loud in a tongue that us unknown to others, we are left speaking to God because He is the only one who can understand. A lot of people make so much of the word "unknown" when the word was added by the translators. It does not appear in the original manuscripts and should not be there. All it does is cause confusion. Something that is not of God.

 

[awaken]

If praying in the spirit means to pray in unknown tongues that sound like "bah alla balla", then why do the scriptures say we need to pray with understanding? If we pray to God in a language we do not understand, that is not praying with the understanding. If we pray out loud in a tongue that us unknown to others, we are left speaking to God because He is the only one who can understand. A lot of people make so much of the word "unknown" when the word was added by the translators. It does not appear in the original manuscripts and should not be there. All it does is cause confusion. Something that is not of God.

vs. 16. Else when thou bless with the spirit how shall he that occupieth the room of the unlearned say A-men at thy giving of thanks, seeing he understandeth not what thou sayeth? For thou verily giveth thanks well, but the other is not edified.

What did Paul say here? He said if you pray in tongues(bless with the spirit) at church, even though it is well, it is not understood. He is not saying not to pray in tongues! Just not in church!
Unless God gives a message to the church and then there is an interpretation.

Paul prayed in the spirit(tongues) more than all..where did he pray if it was not in church?

 

[Dave Slayer]

If praying in the spirit means to pray in unknown tongues that sound like "bah alla balla", then why do the scriptures say we need to pray with understanding? If we pray to God in a language we do not understand, that is not praying with the understanding. If we pray out loud in a tongue that us unknown to others, we are left speaking to God because He is the only one who can understand. A lot of people make so much of the word "unknown" when the word was added by the translators. It does not appear in the original manuscripts and should not be there. All it does is cause confusion. Something that is not of God.

vs. 16. Else when thou bless with the spirit how shall he that occupieth the room of the unlearned say A-men at thy giving of thanks, seeing he understandeth not what thou sayeth? For thou verily giveth thanks well, but the other is not edified.

What did Paul say here? He said if you pray in tongues(bless with the spirit) at church, even though it is well, it is not understood. He is not saying not to pray in tongues! Just not in church!
Unless God gives a message to the church and then there is an interpretation.

Paul prayed in the spirit(tongues) more than all..where did he pray if it was not in church?

You can pray anywhere, doesn't have to be in a Church building. If Paul was a missionary, wouldn't he be going to places that spoke in languages that he himself had never learned? It is quite possible that Paul was given the gift of speaking in other languages because he would need to in order to preach on his missions. Paul also states that he would rather speak 5 words with his understanding than 10,000 words in a tongue. Though it seems as if Pentecostals want it the other way around, "We would rather speak 10,000 words in a tongue than 5 words in a tongue we understand".

 

[mondar]

............A lot of people make so much of the word "unknown" when the word was added by the translators. It does not appear in the original manuscripts and should not be there. All it does is cause confusion. Something that is not of God.

I was reading the thread. I do not know what verse you are referring to. What verse do some say has the word "unknown" in it?

 

[Dave Slayer]

............A lot of people make so much of the word "unknown" when the word was added by the translators. It does not appear in the original manuscripts and should not be there. All it does is cause confusion. Something that is not of God.

I was reading the thread. I do not know what verse you are referring to. What verse do some say has the word "unknown" in it?

1Cr 14:2 For he that speaketh in an [unknown] tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth [him]; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

1Cr 14:4 He that speaketh in an [unknown] tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.

1Cr 14:13 Wherefore let him that speaketh in an [unknown] tongue pray that he may interpret.

1Cr 14:14 For if I pray in an [unknown] tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.

Notice the word "unknown" is in brackets. The KIng James translators added that word in the Bible. In the Bibles. it usually appears in italics. Some version do not have the word "unknown" in them such as the NIV, NASB, and the ESV.

 

[mondar]

[quote="Dave Slayer":24kxqsh3]............A lot of people make so much of the word "unknown" when the word was added by the translators. It does not appear in the original manuscripts and should not be there. All it does is cause confusion. Something that is not of God.

I was reading the thread. I do not know what verse you are referring to. What verse do some say has the word "unknown" in it?

1Cr 14:2 For he that speaketh in an [unknown] tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth [him]; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

1Cr 14:4 He that speaketh in an [unknown] tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.

1Cr 14:13 Wherefore let him that speaketh in an [unknown] tongue pray that he may interpret.

1Cr 14:14 For if I pray in an [unknown] tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.

Notice the word "unknown" is in brackets. The KIng James translators added that word in the Bible. In the Bibles. it usually appears in italics. Some version do not have the word "unknown" in them such as the NIV, NASB, and the ESV.[/quote:24kxqsh3]
OK, good point. The word is obviously not original.
** I did check it in the GNT and the word is not their.

 

[awaken]

Very well put! I was on the other end of this, I was raised that the manifestation of the Spirit had ceased. When I went to God for the truth and saw what he said is scriptures...I believed!

There is a balance..and freedom in the truth! Peace and Joy..I do not believe that speaking in tongues is a salvation issue, but it is very benificial to our walk with the Lord. Jesus is the only way, but because of what he has done we have a life more abundantly!

And I respect that. However, I do not speak in tongues. My life has been very abundant for my 13 years of being a Christian. If tongues make you guys feel closer to God, that is fine. But when I pray to God in English, I feel close to God. I won't fix what's not broken.

Paul said he did both...1 Cor. 14:15 What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understaning also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.

vs. 2 For he that speaketh in an tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God? for no man understandeth; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

vs. 16. Else when thou bless with the spirit how shall he that occupieth the room of the unlearned say A-men at thy giving of thanks, seeing he understandeth not what thou sayeth? For thou verily giveth thanks well, but the other is not edified.

If you notice I did not put the unknown in my scriptures. Even without it, it means the same thing. The one speaking does not know the language he is speaking...it is unknown to him.

 

[Vic C.]

Mondar, the GNT?

 

[mondar]

Mondar, the GNT?

GNT = Greek New Testament.

Dave Slayer posted 4 verses and denied that they are in the autographs. I just wanted to double check on his statement. The word ("unknown") that he claimed was non-existent in the original autographs is indeed absent.

I only checked Scriverener's Greek New Testament and the Westcott-Hort Greek New Testament. Both are online ( http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se ... version=70 ).

 

[Vic C.]

Mondar, the GNT?

GNT = Greek New Testament...

< sigh of relief> I should have known better than to think you were using the Good News Translation. :biglaugh

Dave Slayer posted 4 verses and denied that they are in the autographs. I just wanted to double check on his statement. The word ("unknown") that he claimed was non-existent in the original autographs is indeed absent.

Yes, I've been following the thread.

W & H have gotten a bad rap over the years. You're ok with them?