Trying to understand the Protestant theology on works

[Religio Munda]

So, from all I've read on the subject I understand that Protestant theology affirms that a man is justified by faith alone. The believer is said to be justified unto good works not by them. The proof texts advanced in defense of this doctrine are usually taken from Romans, Galatians and Ephesians if I'm not mistaken.

Catholic (and Orthodox) theology in the other hand holds that faith and good works performed in the state of grace are necessary to justify a man before God whereas Protestants hold that faith alone in Christ's redeeming passion justifies the believer, irrespective of his works. Am I getting it wrong?

Now my doubt is the following: no Protestant holds that good works are truly unnecessary unto salvation given what "faith without works is dead" like St. James says in his epistle. Rather they hold that good works are the inevitable fruits of a saving and lively faith. In other words, if a believer shows no good works, then he has no true faith to begin with and thus he will not be saved.

But this seems a bit like circular reasoning to avoid a seemingly obvious conclusion: that works are indeed necessary after all. In other words, the absence of good works, both for Catholics and Protestants, means that the believer is in trouble regarding his eternal fate. While a Catholic holds that all manners of good works (keeping the commandments, fasting, doing penance, etc.) have merit not of themselves but because we have faith, a Protestant would say that those things in and of themselves are "filthy rags" in the sight of the Lord, although he would be forced to concede that the presence at least of some of them (keeping the commandments, practice charity, etc.) would actually be necessary to prove that one has a saving faith.

Am I missing something?

 

[ivdavid]

a Catholic holds that all manners of good works (keeping the commandments, fasting, doing penance, etc.) have merit not of themselves but because we have faith

What is the "faith" you're referring to here? What belief must one hold here to be deemed to be of faith?

 

[Religio Munda]

What is the "faith" you're referring to here? What belief must one hold here to be deemed to be of faith?

Christian faith. What else would it be?

In other words, explicit faith in Jesus Christ and His redeeming mission as the Second Person of the Holy Trinity, the Son of God, the God-man who died for the sins of His sheep.

 

[ivdavid]

In other words, explicit faith in Jesus Christ and His redeeming mission as the Second Person of the Holy Trinity, the Son of God, the God-man who died for the sins of His sheep.

What is God redeeming us from?

And please, I'm requesting you not to get impatient with my questions. I'd like to know where you're coming from and what your belief frameworks consists of, to ensure we're on the same page on all related semantics - else we'd spend multiple posts using the same words to mean different things, ending up none the better.

 

[Religio Munda]

What is God redeeming us from?

From the bondage of sin. In other words, from the stain of original sin inherited from our first parents that makes us be born in a state of enmity towards God and slaves to the concupiscence of the flesh. Christ's redeeming mission, through His sacrifice on the cross, redeems us from all sin, original and actual.

And please, I'm requesting you not to get impatient with my questions. I'd like to know where you're coming from and what your belief frameworks consists of, to ensure we're on the same page on all related semantics - else we'd spend multiple posts using the same words to mean different things, ending up none the better.

Oh, I see. I'll repeat my introduction post so you can get a better idea where I'm coming from:

I'm looking for a forum where I can discuss theology and other matters of faith and religion with faithful and serious Christians, besides making fellowship. I hope I'm in the right place. I'm a traditional Latin rite Roman Catholic but I'm currently learning and studying the Protestant faith traditions and theologies. I'm especially interested in the Reformed (Calvinist) faith, namely in its most traditional and orthodox manifestations. God bless!

 

[ivdavid]

What is God redeeming us from?

From the bondage of sin.

Would you say that man has the "freewill" to resist such enslavement to sin all by himself? If not, would you then agree that man's will is not entirely "free" to do God's will as long as it's under the power of sin, and apart from the grace of God?

 

[Religio Munda]

Would you say that man has the "freewill" to resist such enslavement to sin all by himself? If not, would you then agree that man's will is not entirely "free" to do God's will as long as it's under the power of sin, and apart from the grace of God?

Yes. Man can only do God's will if God moves and assists him first through His grace.

 

[ivdavid]

Yes. Man can only do God's will if God moves and assists him first through His grace.

I guess this might be where we would begin to diverge in our beliefs. Just to clarify - what is the nature of this "moving and assisting" work of God in man? Is it a prompting that serves as a guideline for man, which he has to then choose to obey by himself - or is it a whole working of God in man, right from providing the godly desires and the godly counsel to act upon such desires as opposed to the desires and counsel of the flesh(corrupted by sin in it)?

 

[Religio Munda]

I guess this might be where we would begin to diverge in our beliefs. Just to clarify - what is the nature of this "moving and assisting" work of God in man? Is it a prompting that serves as a guideline for man, which he has to then choose to obey by himself - or is it a whole working of God in man, right from providing the godly desires and the godly counsel to act upon such desires as opposed to the desires and counsel of the flesh(corrupted by sin in it)?

Yes, I know there are differences between Catholicism and Calvinism as to the nature of this grace although, to be fair, the elect are said to receive "efficacious grace" which differs little, if anything, from the reformed concept of "irresistible grace", at least when it comes to final perseverence.

This is so in the Thomist or Augustinian views on predestination and grace. Molinists differ on this, although I think they err by making our foreseen cooperation with God's grace the cause of election rather than the uncaused will of God. Either way, man's free will is understood to be salvaged because he can theoretically reject efficacious grace. Let me give you an analogy: a man is standing on an iron grid and fire is lit underneath him. Theoretically he can resist his urge to escape pain, stay there and be burned alive but given the external circumstances present before him he won't. Similarly, efficacious grace can theoretically be rejected but it never is because God produces the victorious delight that infallibly leads to man's consent.

Anyway, I'm not sure how this is related to the necessity of good works in Protestant theology.

 

[mondar]

Hi. I just want the automatically generated emails when someone posts here.

 

[reba]

Discussion of Catholic doctrine will be allowed in the One on One Debate Forum and End Times forum only. RCC content in the End Times forum should relate to End Times beliefs. Do not start new topics elsewhere or sway existing threads toward a discussion or debate that is Catholic in nature.

Friendly reminder Nothing like a moderator to mess up a thread.....;)

 

[ivdavid]

the elect are said to receive "efficacious grace" which differs little, if anything, from the reformed concept of "irresistible grace"

If you see it that way, then perhaps we are more in agreement with each other than not. And I must say I'm not too knowledgeable on various denominational beliefs.

Anyway, I'm not sure how this is related to the necessity of good works in Protestant theology.

This is the way I understand faith and works -

I am commanded to work out God's will. God reveals His will through His spiritual Law.

I find that sin in me, that is in my flesh, does not ever permit me to work out God's will. Hence, I bear witness that I can only serve the law of sin in my flesh ie by my own nature/abilities/choices etc.

This is where I am shown the need for a Savior's working in me. God needs to work out His will in me, which I myself am unable to do. This resting on God to work out His will in me, is what I call faith. I play no positive role of contribution in this good work of God in me. All God and zero me.

And God's works are always perfect and infallible. Since faith itself is a working out of God in me, assuring me of His working in me - I know that faith always is evidenced by good works in me. If I am commanded to love my neighbor - and I don't find it in me to do so - and I find that I am led to believe in God's sufficiency to work this command out in me - I am completely confident that I will be led to obey this commandment, given that it is God alone who works good in me and God alone who assures such working in me through faith.

So, when there are no such evidencing works, it is an indicator that I am no longer relying upon God to work in me - that I am lacking faith in God. And if this is my state throughout, that is the indicator that God is not working in me. And if God does not work in me, I will not be saved. Hence, good works are necessary for salvation not in a causative sense - but in an evidential sense.

No good works implies no faith ; no faith implies no working of God ; no working of God implies no life. Hence no good works implies no life. [All these are not calculated over instances but over periods in time].

Is there anything I need to clarify here?

 

[ivdavid]

Discussion of Catholic doctrine will be allowed in the One on One Debate Forum and End Times forum only.

I guess there's no harm then in a Catholic discussing protestant doctrine here.

 

[Religio Munda]

I only brought Catholic doctrine as a passing thought. My intent is to understand Protestant theology on this matter, not to properly "debate."

Anyway, Ivdavid, thank you for your inputs. I'll get to this later.

 

[childeye]

=Religio Munda;583262]
But this seems a bit like circular reasoning to avoid a seemingly obvious conclusion: that works are indeed necessary after all.

I'm not knowledgable about protestant theology however may I venture an opinion? The protestants are concerned that "faith" (holding to the True Image of God) is given the prominence of having to exist prior to good works that come from the Spirit of that Image.

 

[mondar]

I'm not knowledgable about protestant theology however may I venture an opinion? The protestants are concerned that "faith" (holding to the True Image of God) is given the prominence of having to exist prior to good works that come from the Spirit of that Image.

I admit that not all who use the tag "protestant" would agree with me, but I would not see faith or works coming from the "True Image of God."