Christian Forums

This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

Turn The Other Cheek ?

Lewis

Member
I got a good question, Jesus said Turn The Other Cheek. But I have heard some people say that He said that being humorous, and I have heard people say take that literally. Now God I know for a fact, does not want you to stand there, while somebody beats you to death, and you turn your head, and say hit me on this side with the hammer too. Or you stand there while somebody breaks in your house and beats and rapes your wife and kids. God wants you to protect yourself. I heard my old pastor say, that God will protect you if you are right by Him. I don't agree with that because, just because you are saved, don't mean that trouble won't come your way. Now through devine intervention God will intervene, when He wants to. But that is not always the case. Many Christians have gotten there heads kicked in, for turning the other cheek.
And I don't know if Jesus made that statement to be taken literally, because not everybody in their Spiritual walk will reach that point, as to where they are that mature in Christ. And Jesus knew that, in His omniscience. So I would like to hear what you all think about this. And I want to hear which one of you will stand there while somebody beats you with a crowbar.
 
Most everything Jesus taught were matters of the heart, not the physical comforts or those things that afflict the body... getting beat up for one example.
Getting beat up emotionally can be just as tough and here is the point of turning the other cheek, to forgive. Has someone slighted you? Forgive them. Has someone hurt your feelings? Forgive them. Has anyone offended you in any way? Forgive them.

Defend yourself as best as possible against physical attack of course but take no vengence of your own, if you survive. Then the hard part. Forgive. There's too much vengence in the world as it is. Revenge is applauded in this fallen world. Take no part in it.
 
I agree with your reply, but some theologians don,t. Because what I am talking about here is just physical attack. I know that an emotional can be just as bad.
But this question needs to be talked about because some people, really think that they should stand there, while someone beats them to death with a mallet.
 
reply

hey i just wanted to say that i agree with you both i don't think that we christians should let ourselves get beat up but neither do i think we should take revenge on someone who has hurt us. i think we should forgive them for what they did even though thats the hardest thing to do. AS a karate student i have learned that defense and trying to talk to the person is usually the best way to stop a fight. If it geos beyond that you have every right to defend yourself.
 
Lewis W said:
Now God I know for a fact, does not want you to stand there, while somebody beats you to death, and you turn your head, and say hit me on this side with the hammer too.
How do you know this "for a fact"? I am not saying that I disagree with you about self-defence but I am interested in how you (and others) deal with scriptures that suggest we are not to resist evil. I think evangelicals have a schizophrenic view of Biblical teachings. We say that the life of the Christian is to be one of self-denial and modeling ourselves after Jesus, yet we act as though this were not the case. We own luxuries like TVs, SUVs, swimming pools, when (to me) one clear message of Jesus is to give to the poor.

On the self-defence issue, how you know that God use a passive response to violence to bring glory to Himself? Perhaps by not resisting, we will bring such shame to an attacker that he will ultimately repent of this ways and turn to Christ.

We say we need to "die to self" and take Jesus at his words, but are we really doing this? If you counterargue through an appeal to common sense "Jesus obviously does not want us to give up our lives to an attacker", then remember that you can be accused of "using human wisdom". For those who think the Bible as the word of God, what do the words of Jesus say?

Personally, I would probably defend myself with force. But I think this could be problematic from a Biblical perspective. So, I think the matter is not an easy one at all.
 
It makes sense to defend yourself, but just because something makes worldy sense, it doesn't mean it makes spiritual sense. After all this world is temporary. Maybe the bigger lesson is that a tue follower of jesus knows it is temporary and seeks to do little violence. After all, eternity is a mighty long time. This life would pass away in the blink of an eye.

Biblically, Jesus says not to resist an evil person (as Drew has shown in another post). I think that is very clear. What I do see is people not wanting that to be true. So they try to find ways around it as opposed to seeing that passage for what it says.

Quath
 
Attack or defense can only make some sort of sense if the attacker and the attacked are two completely different entities.

Otherwise one would merely end up hurting oneself, wouldn't one?

If, however, the Kingdom of God is indeed as Whole as God Himself, each "part" of the Kingdom cannot be separate and attack or defense will make no sense at all and will merely constitute the giving in to (and the continued nourishing of) the illusion of a separate existance.

Not only that, but he who attacks is clearly following the wrong teacher (ego) and consequently cannot be following/hearing the right Teacher (Holy Spirit) and ... must therefore lose his way.
 
How do you know this "for a fact"
Drew, this is how I know. God is a God who makes sense. It does not make sense to stand there while somebody tries to beat you to death, or break in your house and rape your wife, and you can defend her but won't. Does that make sense ? God has already put a mechanism in you, that kicks in when you have to defend yourself. He did not put them there for nothing. Now talking is the best way, but some people you cannot talk to. For instance take a look at Romans 12:18 KJV and pay close attention to the word Possible, because some people won't let you talk to them, because they are full of evil, and in some cases you have to fight.
ROM 12:18 If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men.
ROM 12:19 Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.

Now are not to take out revenge. But if it be at all possible try to have peace with everyone. But some people won't let you. Paul also said up there, As Much That Lieth In You. So you try your best, until the other person trys to beat you up, or your family. Then you have to put on your gorilla suit.
 
Lewis W said:
Drew, this is how I know. God is a God who makes sense. It does not make sense to stand there while somebody tries to beat you to death, or break in your house and rape your wife, and you can defend her but won't. Does that make sense ? God has already put a mechanism in you, that kicks in when you have to defend yourself. He did not put them there for nothing.
So it sounds like you are saying that since God gave us this desire to defend ourself, we should think it is what God wants us to do. But that doesn't seem to be the case for our desires of greed, lust or wrath. The Bible teaches to put down certain feelings and emotions for others. Self defense could be one of those.

Quath
 
Lewis W said:
God is a God who makes sense. It does not make sense to stand there while somebody tries to beat you to death...
Lewis, like many evangelicals its seems that you "want your to have scriptural authority cake and eat your common sense cake too". Lots of things about the Christian life don't make sense. You are playing right into the hands of those who will say that you are adopting the wisdom of the world, not following the words of Jesus.

It doesn't "make sense" to stay in a marriage where both parties are miserable, but most evangelicals say that we must obey Jesus' teaching against divorce. Do you agree with Jesus' teaching on divorce? If so, why do you disagree with Jesus' words "Do not resist an evil person"? I would dearly like to be able to justify self-defence Biblically, but the case just doesn't seem to be that strong.

In light of this, here is my challenge: Can you make a case as to why the words "Do not resist an evil person" do not mean what they seem to mean. A real case, not just evasive appeals to common sense. Obviously, common sense says that we should fight of an attacker. But common sense says that we should leave unhappy marriages and not give all our excess wealth to the poor (remember the rich young ruler?) The demands of the gospel, to me anyway, often have little to do with common sense.
 
Quath I know you are not a Christian but Drew, I don't know about you. But let me ask you something, would you stand there and let somebody punch you to death ? Or beat up your wife and kids, only coward, would do so. The argument by both of you guy's is very weak.
 
Lewis W said:
Quath I know you are not a Christian but Drew, I don't know about you. But let me ask you something, would you stand there and let somebody punch you to death ? Or beat up your wife and kids, only coward, would do so. The argument by both of you guy's is very weak.
Lewis my friend: Surely, surely you must see how this is a non-answer. This is a strategy that is doomed to fail. There are inquiring minds out there, actually reading this stuff, actually interested in evaluating arguments on both sides of this issue. They are almost certainly bright enough to see when someone is evading a question.

What I would do is besides the point (I would almost certainly fight back) - what I am interested in is what Jesus wants us to do.

Calling a pacifist a coward is simply not a real argument. Merely saying that my argument is weak is not an argument. Have you ever thought that non-believing readers like Quath are going to see rather obvious evasion? We have a responsibilty to such readers to make a case with actual content.

I actually want to believe in the self-defence thing, I really do. Now one more time, can you make a Biblical case as to why the words "Do not resist an evil person" do not mean what they seem to mean?
 
Drew I have evaded nothing, at all, I said what I said, and I will not back away from it. I am not angry at you, because you see it the way you see it. But this topic as far as I am concerned is over. Because believe me, I am not trying to change your mind.
 
Turning the other cheek refers to not seeking revenge. Has nothing to do with self-defense.

The strike on the cheek (slap) refers to an insult. We should not injure people over insults. The words stating a "strike on the cheek" is actually referring to a slap (or insult). Remember in the old movies where two people would have a duel after one guy takes his glove off and slaps the other across the cheek (face) with it?
Again, Jesus was referring to the problem regarding revenge over an offense or insult, not self defense.

Jesus was always dealing with our attitudes because the heart is where offenses and violence to others begins. We are not to initiate that.

The mention of not resisting an evil person has nothing to do with self-defense either. But the way I understand it is that if another person chooses to live in a way that is wrong (or evil), we are not to try to force our rules, controls, or way of life upon them.
Often I have seen Christians speak against nonbelievers because they don't live like we do, and that's not right either. They are allowed to live the life they choose.
 
Drew said:
Lewis W said:
Now God I know for a fact, does not want you to stand there, while somebody beats you to death, and you turn your head, and say hit me on this side with the hammer too.
How do you know this "for a fact"? I am not saying that I disagree with you about self-defence but I am interested in how you (and others) deal with scriptures that suggest we are not to resist evil. I think evangelicals have a schizophrenic view of Biblical teachings. We say that the life of the Christian is to be one of self-denial and modeling ourselves after Jesus, yet we act as though this were not the case. We own luxuries like TVs, SUVs, swimming pools, when (to me) one clear message of Jesus is to give to the poor.

On the self-defence issue, how you know that God use a passive response to violence to bring glory to Himself? Perhaps by not resisting, we will bring such shame to an attacker that he will ultimately repent of this ways and turn to Christ.

We say we need to "die to self" and take Jesus at his words, but are we really doing this? If you counterargue through an appeal to common sense "Jesus obviously does not want us to give up our lives to an attacker", then remember that you can be accused of "using human wisdom". For those who think the Bible as the word of God, what do the words of Jesus say?

Personally, I would probably defend myself with force. But I think this could be problematic from a Biblical perspective. So, I think the matter is not an easy one at all.

I suggest that you go to any violence filled area of the city and walk unarmed amidst the crime element, and tell us how your faith stopped criminals from attacking you. After you have fine tuned your instructions for others, then you can begin a course teaching all Christians how to walk within the dangerous parts of the world, and donate any money that you make to those in need. Sell all that you have first, before you begin this walk. Let me know how it turns out.
Thanks.
 
antitox said:
Turning the other cheek refers to not seeking revenge. Has nothing to do with self-defense.

The strike on the cheek (slap) refers to an insult. We should not injure people over insults. The words stating a "strike on the cheek" is actually referring to a slap (or insult). Remember in the old movies where two people would have a duel after one guy takes his glove off and slaps the other across the cheek (face) with it?
Again, Jesus was referring to the problem regarding revenge over an offense or insult, not self defense.

Jesus was always dealing with our attitudes because the heart is where offenses and violence to others begins. We are not to initiate that.

The mention of not resisting an evil person has nothing to do with self-defense either. But the way I understand it is that if another person chooses to live in a way that is wrong (or evil), we are not to try to force our rules, controls, or way of life upon them.

Often I have seen Christians speak against nonbelievers because they don't live like we do, and that's not right either. They are allowed to live the life they choose.

Good answer.

.
 
I still submit that no one has actually made a case against the "common sense" interpretation of "do not resist an evil person". Merely saying that it means one thing (e.g. that we are not force our rules on evil people) rather than the more "literal" meaning (do not resist an evil person...period) is not very convincing. Antitox, I really want to believe what you are saying, but I need something a little more substantial to justify not taking the words generally....and a general interpretation surely includes not defending one's self.

Solo's "argument" is like others I have heard (e.g. from BB). When they cannot make a case, they resort to.....well, you all can read his post and draw own conclusions. Arguments based on "worldly knowledge" cannot really be claimed by those who assume that the Scriptures are authoritative. Why? Think of the divorce case - most evangelicals would say no divorce for a couple that is merely unhappy. Wordly common sense says otherwise, but Jesus tells us what to do.....

I am sorry, Lewis W, but these are not "great answers". They are merely statements of a position.
 
It is not only saying it Drew.

Let us see how a well known teacher explains the passage.

You have heard that it was said, “An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth.†But I say to you, do not resist him who is evil; but whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn to him the other also. Matthew 5:38
Probably no part of the Sermon on the Mount has been so misinterpreted and misapplied as Matthew 5:38-42. It has been interpreted to mean that Christians are to be sanctimonious doormats. It has been used to promote pacifism, conscientious objection to military service, lawlessness, anarchy, and a host of other positions that it does not support. The Russian writer Tolstoy based one of his best-known novels on this passage. The thesis of War and Peace is that the elimination of police, the military, and other forms of authority would bring a utopian society.

But Jesus already had made plain that He did not come to eliminate even the smallest part of God’s law (Matthew 5:17-19), which includes respect for and obedience to human law and authority.

Among the many unrighteous things that the religion of the scribes and Pharisees (see Matthew 5:20) included was their insistence on personal rights and vengeance. In His fifth illustration contrasting their righteousness with God’s, Jesus again shows how rabbinic tradition had twisted God’s holy law to serve the selfish purposes of unholy men.

“An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth.â€Â

This quotation is taken directly from the Old Testament (Exodus 21:24; Leviticus 24:20; Deuteronomy 19:21) and reflects the principle of lex talionis, one of the most ancient law codes. Simply put, it required that punishment exactly match the crime. The same idea is carried in the expressions tit for tat and quid pro quo. The earliest record of lex talionis is in the Code of Hammurabi, the great Babylonian king who lived a hundred or so years before Moses. It is likely, however, that the principle was in wide use long before that time.

In the Pentateuch an eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth are part of longer lists that include “hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise†(see Exodus 21:24-25) and “fracture for fracture†(Leviticus 24:20). In both the law of Moses and the Code of Hammurabi the principle of punishment to match the crime had two basic purposes. The first was to curtail further crime. When a person is punished for his wrongdoing, “the rest will hear and be afraid, and will never again do such an evil thing among you†(Deuteronomy 19:20). The second purpose was to prevent excessive punishment based on personal vengeance and angry retaliation of the type of which Lamech boasted: “For I have killed a man for wounding me; and a boy for striking me; if Cain is avenged sevenfold, then Lamech seventy-sevenfold†(Genesis 4:23-24). Punishment was to match, but not exceed, the harm done by the offense itself.

It is of the utmost significance that each of the three Pentateuch accounts that prescribe the eye for an eye principle has to do with the civil justice system. Exodus 21–23 deals entirely with God’s provision for Israel’s civil law, as do the similar teachings in Leviticus 24 and Deuteronomy 19. Punishment was sometimes carried out by the victim, but the trial and sentencing were always the responsibility of duly appointed judges or of a large, representative body of citizens (see Exodus 21:22; Deuteronomy 19:18; Leviticus 24:14-16).

The law of an eye for an eye was a just law, because it matched punishment to offense. It was a merciful law, because it limited the innate propensity of the human heart to seek retribution beyond what an offense deserved. It was also a beneficent law, because it protected society by restraining wrongdoing.

Selfish overreaction is the natural response of sinful human nature. We are tempted to get more than just even. Anger and resentment demand the sort of retaliation Lamech glorified. Human vengeance is never satisfied with justice; it wants a pound of flesh for an ounce of offense. That is one reason why God restricts vengeance to Himself. “Vengeance is Mine, and retribution†(Deuteronomy 32:35; cf. Romans 12:19; Hebrews 10:30).

God’s command for the individual has always been, “If your enemy is hungry, give him food to eat; and if he is thirsty, give him water to drink†(Proverbs 25:21; cf. Matthew 5:44; Romans 12:20). No individual has the right to say, “Thus I shall do to him as he has done to me; I will render to the man according to his work†(Proverbs 24:29). In no instance did the Old Testament allow an individual to take the law into his own hands and apply it personally.

The Perversion of Rabbinic Tradition

Yet that is exactly what rabbinic tradition had done. Each man was permitted, in effect, to become his own judge, jury, and executioner. God’s law was turned to individual license, and civil justice was perverted to personal vengeance. Instead of properly acknowledging the law of an eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth as a limit on punishment, they conveniently used it as a mandate for vengeance-as it has often been wrongly viewed throughout history.

What God gave as a restriction on civil courts, Jewish tradition had turned into personal license for revenge. In still another way, the self-centered and self-asserted “righteousness†of the scribes and Pharisees had made a shambles of God’s holy law.

Do not resist him who is evil...

In the command do not resist him who is evil Jesus rebuts the Pharisees’ misinterpretation and forbids retaliation in personal relationships. He does not teach, as many have claimed, that no stand is to be taken against evil and that it should simply be allowed to take its course. Jesus and the apostles continually opposed evil with every means and resource. Jesus resisted the profaning of God’s Temple by making a scourge of cords and physically driving out the sacrifice sellers and moneychangers (Matthew 21:12; John 2:15). We are to “resist the devil†(James 4:7; 1 Peter 5:9) and all the evil that he stands for and inspires (Matthew 6:13; Romans 12:9; 1 Thessalonians 5:22; 2 Timothy 4:18).

A proper resisting of evil includes resisting it in the church. When Peter compromised with the Judaizers, Paul “opposed him to his face, because he stood condemned†(Galatians 2:11). When there is immorality in the congregation, God says, “Remove the wicked man from among yourselves†(1 Corinthians 5:13; cf. Deuteronomy 13:5). Jesus said that a believer who sins should first be reproved in private, and then before two or three other church members if he does not repent. “And if he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax-gatherer†(Matthew 18:15-17). Paul echoes Jesus’ teaching when he says that those in the church who continue in sin should be rebuked “in the presence of all, so that the rest also may be fearful of sinning†(1 Timothy 5:20).

That the principle of nonresistance does not apply to governmental authorities is clear from many passages in the New Testament. Civil government “is a minister of God to you for good,†Paul says. “But if you do what is evil, be afraid; for it does not bear the sword for nothing; for it is a minister of God, an avenger who brings wrath upon the one who practices evil†(Romans 13:4). Peter commands, “Submit yourselves for the Lord’s sake to every human institution, whether to a king as the one in authority, or to governors as sent by him for the punishment of evildoers and the praise of those who do right†(1 Peter 2:13-14).

For the sake of God’s righteousness, as well as for the sake of human justice, believers are obligated not only to uphold the law themselves but to insist that others do so as well. To report crime is an act of compassion, righteousness, and godly obedience as well as an act of civil responsibility. To belittle, excuse, or hide the wrongdoing of others is not an act of love but an act of wickedness, because it undermines civil justice and divine righteousness.

As long as the natural human heart exists, evil will have to be restrained by law. Our crime-wrecked society would do well to reexamine-and reapply-biblical law. When God is forsaken, His righteous standards are forsaken, and His law is forsaken. Antinomianism, the doing away with law, is as much an enemy of the gospel as legalism and works righteousness. The Old and New Testaments are never at odds in regard to law and grace, justice and mercy. The Old Testament teaches nothing of a righteous and just God apart from a merciful and loving God, and the New Testament teaches nothing of a merciful and loving God apart from a righteous and just God. The revelation of God is unchanging in regard to moral law.

Anthisteµmi (resist) means to set against or oppose, and in this context obviously refers to harm done to us personally by someone who is evil. Jesus is speaking of personal resentment, spite, and vengeance. It is the same truth taught by Paul when he said, “Never pay back evil for evil to anyone. … Never take your own revenge, beloved, but leave room for the the wrath of God, for it is written ‘Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,’ says the Lord†(Romans 12:17-19). Vengeful retaliation has no place in society at large, and even less place among those who belong to Christ. We are called to overcome someone’s evil toward us by doing good to them (Romans 12:21).

After establishing the basic principle in Matthew 5:39a, in verses 39b-42 Jesus picks out four basic human rights that He uses to illustrate the principle of non-retaliation: (1) dignity, (2) security, (3) liberty, and (4) property.

(1) DIGNITY

...but whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn to him the other also. (5:39b)

As human beings we have the right to be treated with basic dignity, respect, and consideration. Because every person is created in His image, God demands that we treat one another with respect. But he knows that we will not always be so treated. Often for the very reason that we belong to God and go by the name of His Son, we will be mistreated, ridiculed, and held in contempt (see Matthew 10:16-23; John 15:18 to John 16:3; 1 Peter 2:20-21; 1 Peter 3:13-17; 1 Peter 4:12-19; cf. 2 Timothy 3:12). It is the way we react to mistreatment and insult that Jesus is talking about here.

Among Jews, a slap or other striking in the face was among the most demeaning and contemptuous of acts (cf. Matthew 26:67-68; Mark 14:65; John 18:22). To strike someone elsewhere on the body might cause more physical harm, but a slap in the face was an attack on one’s honor and was considered to be a terrible indignity. It was to be treated with disdain, as being less than a human. Even a slave would rather have been stuck across the back with a whip than be slapped in the face by his master’s hand.

To strike someone on the right cheek would then be a vicious angry reaction, indicating an act of insult. Yet when we are insulted, maligned, and treated with contempt-literally or figuratively struck on the cheek by someone-we are to turn to him the other also. But Jesus’ point pertains more to what we are not to do than what we are to do. Turning the other cheek symbolizes the nonavenging, non-retaliatory, humble, and gentle spirit that is to characterize kingdom citizens.

Jesus strongly resisted evil that was directed against others, especially His Father-as when He cleansed the Temple of those who defiled His Father’s house. But He did not resist by personal vengeance any evil directed at Himself. When the leaders of the Sanhedrin, and later the soldiers, physically abused Him and mocked Him, He did not retaliate either in words or in actions (Matthew 26:67-68). As Isaiah had predicted of Him, Christ gave His back to those who struck Him and His cheeks to those who plucked out His beard (Isaiah 50:6). As Jesus hung from the cross, He prayed, “Father, forgive them; for they do not know what they are doing†(Luke 23:34). Peter sums up our Lord’s example: “But if when you do what is right and suffer for it you patiently endure it, this finds favor with God. For you have been called for this purpose, since Christ also suffered for you, leaving you an example for you to follow in His steps, who committed no sin, nor was any deceit found in His mouth; and while being reviled, He did not revile in return; wile suffering, He uttered no threats, but kept entrusting Himself to Him who judges righteously†(1 Peter 2:20-23).

When someone attacks our right to dignity, we too are not to defend that right by retaliation. We are to leave the protection and defense of our dignity in God’s hands, knowing that one day we will live and reign with him in His kingdom in great glory.

Source: MacArthur, John F., Matthew: The MacArthur New Testament Commentary, (Chicago: Moody Press) 1989.

:)
 
...but whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn to him the other also. (Matthew 5:39)

Did you notice something? .... right cheek ...

How can a right-handed man slap another on the right cheek? Only one way... with a back-handed slap; an insult!

Another good article....
http://www.bible.org/page.asp?page_id=1066

:)
 
Back
Top