Two Kinds of Eternal Inheritance; Even Former Believers Are Still His

[Jim Parker]

Thanks for trying. It shows you care.

I appreciate that.

 

[ChristDependent]

Well, let's start with some basics.

Let's move to the air, and see what's there?

Thank you for sharing, but it would be best to stick with the context of the reference we are actually talking about.

1 Thessalonians 4: 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

We have Christ descending from heaven with a shout when the dead in Christ shall rise first.

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

God be willing, we, the living that are abiding in Christ as His disciples by His grace & by His help as our Good Shepherd, are going to be with those resurrected in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so shall we ever be with the Lord; hence taken to our Father's mansion above.

That is to me the Bridegroom coming for the bride and taking the vessels unto honor Home above.

John 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. 2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

 

[ChristDependent]

I appreciate that.

I thank the Lord Jesus Christ that I love you as my brother in Christ.:yes

 

[smaller]

Thank you for sharing, but it would be best to stick with the context of the reference we are actually talking about.

1 Thessalonians 4: 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

We have Christ descending from heaven with a shout when the dead in Christ shall rise first.

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

God be willing, we, the living that are abiding in Christ as His disciples by His grace & by His help as our Good Shepherd, are going to be with those resurrected in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so shall we ever be with the Lord; hence taken to our Father's mansion above.

That is to me the Bridegroom coming for the bride and taking the vessels unto honor Home above.

John 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. 2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

I believe it is you who stick the pre-trib rapture theory into the posts. So, yeah, meeting in the air is in order of the conversation by that insertion.

So, did you understand or not, that air in spiritual terms is THE HEART? Mark 4, Eph. 2:2.

We will unlikely be floating away into the atmosphere as the blinded flesh movies and novels portray.

 

[ChristDependent]

I believe it is you who stick the pre-trib rapture theory into the posts. So, yeah, meeting in the air is in order of the conversation by that insertion.

So, did you understand or not, that air in spiritual terms is THE HEART? Mark 4, Eph. 2:2.

We will unlikely be floating away into the atmosphere as the blinded flesh movies and novels portray.

I just do not believe that was what Paul's message was about in 1 Thessalonians 4:14-16.

 

[smaller]

I just do not believe that was what Paul's message was about in 1 Thessalonians 4:14-16.

It's one of several legit critiques of the pretrib theory.

 

[dianegcook]

I just do not believe that was what Paul's message was about in 1 Thessalonians 4:14-16.

Hi there
Let us look at that verse 1Thess.4:14
It states that those that are deceased, will God BRING with Him.
They are already there, absent from the body, present with the Lord.
Yes, we all will change in a twinkling of an eye, in spirit form.
He is coming here to reign, gather His Elect from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven. Mark 13:27, and reign with Christ a thousand years, here on earth. The millennium temple.
But only the overcomers are allowed in.

Regardless, the passage in 1Thess.4:14, does not say this happens before the tribulation.

In Mark 13:24 it states
But in those days, AFTER that TRIBULATION, then gather the Elect.

In fact, in 2Thess.2:1-4 it states
We beseech you, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto Him.
That day, (not this day and another day) shall not come except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition,
Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God showing himself that he is God.

Also you quoted John 14:2,3
In My Father's house are many mansions, I go to prepare a place for you.
I will come again and receive you unto Myself.
First off, there were not chapters and # verses in original writings.
Jesus was talking to His disciples and us, about His death from also chapter 13:
Mansion means abode, abide....
Abode:
John 14:23
If a man love me, he will keep My words, and My Father will love him, and We will come unto him, and make Our abode with Him.
Verse 16, I will pray the Father, and He shall give you another Comforter, that He may ABIDE with you 4ever.

Verse 20, At that day ye shall know that I am in My Father, and ye in Me, and I in you.

The disciples were not raptured.
Think about it...

 

[ChristDependent]

Hi there
Let us look at that verse 1Thess.4:14
It states that those that are deceased, will God BRING with Him. They are already there, absent from the body, present with the Lord. Yes, we all will change in a twinkling of an eye, in spirit form.

Thank you for participating, but there is some problem with that application.

Paul was referring to the dead actual resurrection and not about being absent from the body and present with the Lord ( which the believers that have passed on are, but Paul is talking about a specific day & time when the dead shall rise bodily first, before the living are changed as well and are taken up to meet them in the clouds. That whole event occurred after Christ descended from Heaven with a shout. It is at that moment, Christ is not in Heaven.

He is coming here to reign, gather His Elect from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven. Mark 13:27,

Mark 13:27 deals with the upper quote and not the bottom quote.

and reign with Christ a thousand years, here on earth. The millennium temple.
But only the overcomers are allowed in.

Actually, all the verses for he who overcomes in the Book of Revelation is about Christ overcoming for those saved believers that did not repent from iniquity of that church. All those verses is a promise to those left behind at the rapture for when they shall reign with Him when He comes back as King of kings for them.

The firstfruits live in the city of God that comes down from Heaven. They that be Christ's shall reign with Him and that means spread out all over the world is where they will live. Some will have the name of the city of God on them to signify to the coming generation yet to be born in the milleniel reign that they were resurrected after the great tribulation and that they serve the King of kings from that city of God,

Regardless, the passage in 1Thess.4:14, does not say this happens before the tribulation.

In Mark 13:24 it states
But in those days, AFTER that TRIBULATION, then gather the Elect.

There is tribulation which we are in now; and then there is great tribulation.

Matthew 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

The says of all the elect shall be shortened by the pre trib rapture event as they will not see the great tribulation.

In fact, in 2Thess.2:1-4 it states
We beseech you, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto Him.
That day, (not this day and another day) shall not come except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition,
Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God showing himself that he is God.

Two events are being discussed here; the falling away from the faith & that son of perdition. That means the Lord will deal with both in their respective time. God has to judge His House first which He will do at the pre trib rapture in dealing with those that have fallen away from the faith BEFORE He comes back with the pre trib raptured saints to deal with Satan & the world's armies.

Zechariah 14:1 Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee. 2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city. 3 Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle. 4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south. 5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the Lord my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

So the Lord comes back with the pre trib raptured saints, touched foot on the Mount of Olives to deal with Satan and the world's armies.

Now here's the kicker. Revelation 20th chapter has Satan defeated and in the pit for a thousand years BEFORE the resurrection of those saints coming out of the great tribulation. That means for that resurrection, Jesus is not meeting those saints in the air for He has already touched down on earth.

The term "first resurrection" was used to defer from the rest of the dead that will happen later on. It was not the only resurrection to have occurred, but that it was pacing the order of the resurrection of those saints as coming out of the great tribulation to occur first before the rest of the dead later on. That is why "first resurrection" was mentioned in verse 5 as following the words about the rest of the dead that will happen later on. It was just setting the order between those two resurrection. It was not saying it was the only one that had occurred.

http://www.sacrednamebible.com/kjvstrongs/index2.htm

Also you quoted John 14:2,3
In My Father's house are many mansions, I go to prepare a place for you.
I will come again and receive you unto Myself.
First off, there were not chapters and # verses in original writings.
Jesus was talking to His disciples and us, about His death from also chapter 13:
Mansion means abode, abide....

Abode:
John 14:23
If a man love me, he will keep My words, and My Father will love him, and We will come unto him, and make Our abode with Him.
Verse 16, I will pray the Father, and He shall give you another Comforter, that He may ABIDE with you 4ever.

Verse 20, At that day ye shall know that I am in My Father, and ye in Me, and I in you.

The disciples were not raptured.
Think about it...

Where is Jesus now? With the Father in His mansion. He promised that where He is now, we will be. This is different from the other promise of being with us after He leaves by dwelling in us.

Thank you for sharing.

 

[dianegcook]

Thanks for your reply ChristDependent
In 1Peter 3:8-10
But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a 1000 years, and a 1000 years as 1 day.
The Lord's Day.
The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some men count blackness, but is long suffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
The evil rudiments will burn, no more flesh.
No left behind...

First fruits?
1Cor.15:20-23
Christ risen from the dead, and become the first fruits of them that slept.
But every man in his own order, Christ the firstfruits, afterward they that are Christ's at His coming.
Not as you may say, His appearing, but His feet touching Mt. Olive.

In Rev.11:15-18
The 2 witnesses were killed,
The last trump,
The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of His Christ, and He shall reign 4ever.
And thy wrath is come, and give reward unto thy servants, and to the saints.....
1Cor.15:52-53
In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump, ...we shall be changed..
For this corruptible (flesh) must put on incorruptible, (spirit), and this mortal, ( soul, liable to die) must put on immortality. ( deathlessness)

Rev.20:4-6
Saw the souls that were beheaded, the ones that took not the Mark of the beast, they lived and reigned with Christ a 1000 years.
These over came, on such the second death hath no power, the death of the soul.

 

[ChristDependent]

Thanks for your reply ChristDependent

Thank you for participating, Diane

No left behind...

What is happening here?

Luke 12:40 Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not. 41 Then Peter said unto him, Lord, speakest thou this parable unto us, or even to all? 42 And the Lord said, Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his lord shall make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of meat in due season? 43 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing. 44 Of a truth I say unto you, that he will make him ruler over all that he hath. 45 But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken; 46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers. 47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. 48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more. 49 I am come to send fire on the earth; and what will I, if it be already kindled?

Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Luke 13:24 Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. 25 When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are: 26 Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets. 27 But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity. 28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out. 29 And they shall come from the east, and from the west, and from the north, and from the south, and shall sit down in the kingdom of God. 30 And, behold, there are last which shall be first, and there are first which shall be last.

Luke 21:33 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away. 34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares. 35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth. 36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

Reads to me that any saved believer not found ready & willing to go nor found abiding in Him will be left behind.

 

[dianegcook]

Thank you for participating, Diane



What is happening here?

Luke 12:40 Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not. 41 Then Peter said unto him, Lord, speakest thou this parable unto us, or even to all? 42 And the Lord said, Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his lord shall make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of meat in due season? 43 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing. 44 Of a truth I say unto you, that he will make him ruler over all that he hath. 45 But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken; 46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers. 47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. 48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more. 49 I am come to send fire on the earth; and what will I, if it be already kindled?

Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Luke 13:24 Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. 25 When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are: 26 Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets. 27 But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity. 28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out. 29 And they shall come from the east, and from the west, and from the north, and from the south, and shall sit down in the kingdom of God. 30 And, behold, there are last which shall be first, and there are first which shall be last.

Luke 21:33 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away. 34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares. 35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth. 36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

Reads to me that any saved believer not found ready & willing to go nor found abiding in Him will be left behind.

Yes, but it doesn't say the believers get raptured, nor does it say that all this is before the tribulation?
Just like the parable of the 10 virgins.
5 wise, 5 foolish
The 5 foolish went to where they supposedly buy and sell oil, anointing,
As to me I believe, in Rev.13:17
That no man might buy or sell, save he that had the Mark of the beast.
The 5 foolish was deceived by the false one, thinking he is Christ.
Then Jesus came while they were at the feet of Satan, the moment when they least expect it, they think that He is already here.
The 5 wise remained a virgin bride, the foolish became a harlot. Spiritually
The 5 foolish will say, Lord, Lord, open to us, and I never knew you.
The door shut.
The wise will reign with Christ in the Temple, here, the Lord's Day.
Ezek.40:-48:
Is about the millennium temple.

And yes, I will escape all these things, because I will not be tempted and deceived by Satan.

As in Mark 13:21-27
If any man shall say to you, Lo, here is Christ, or lo, He is there, believe him not.
For false Christ and false prophets shall rise, showing signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.
But in those days, after the tribulation, then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory...gather His Elect.
In Matt. 24: 37-39
For as the days of Noah, they knew not until the flood came and took them all away.
So shall the coming of the Son of man be.
Those that knew not, were taken away, Noah remained, He knew a flood was coming, thus prepared himself.
The flood next time, will come from the dragons mouth, deception.
Rev.12:15-17
And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, to be carried away of the flood, lies, deception, went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Matt.24:23
If any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there believe it not.
26, if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert, go not forth, Behold, he is in the secret chamber, believe it not.
You want to remain in the field, don't be taken by deception.
Good evening to ya

 

[ChristDependent]

Yes, but it doesn't say the believers get raptured, nor does it say that all this is before the tribulation?

Just to be clear, I see your tribulation that you are referring to as the great tribulation.

We are in tribulation now; just not the great tribulation.

As for the ten virgins; they are not being persecuted. They are in a stress free environment which describes a time before the great tribulation. There is no war on the saints. There is no pressure to get the mark to survive in that new world order so they can buy & sell. There is no hour of temptation to try all on the earth.

The ten virgins is applied to those five foolish virgins seeking to be filled with the Holy Spirit again after a sign, even a sign of tongues that never comes with interpretation, whereas the five prudent virgins know that they are filled the first time by faith in Jesus Christ and thus why their lamps were shining when the Bridegroom had come.

Those in the marketplace can still repent by returning to their first love and go out no more to the marketplace to seek to be filled & shun vain & profane babblings by praying normally.

As it is the Bridegroom is coming first and then He will return as the King of kings to reign on earth.